4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #87

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  • #401
New filing by Prosecution on COI page dated 11th August
"Objection to Defendant's Second Motion to Stay Proceedings"


There's a little more detail as to the substance (or lack thereof Imo) of defenses motion - some references to AT's affidavit that was filed under seal with the D's motion. Moo

INAL but the basis of the motion to stay seems awfully thin on the ground. As usual the state addresses each point in accordance with ICRs - it's hard for me to imagine, if the state is not outright wrong, how the Ds motion to stay will succeed. Jmo
 
  • #402
I love your explanation. This Radom 1 in 70 trillion would also have to some similarities with his mom and dad as well I would think. Oh and drive a white Elantra ! Lol

Oh - that's true! This person would have to have a parent whose Y chromosome is identical to Mr. K! So, two clones of Mr and Mrs K give birth to a second BK somewhere on the planet.

The odds must be something like 70 trillion to the third power. Impossible odds. More likely that we're all descendants of aliens.

IMO.

Your point is a great point.
 
  • #403
Technically, we can be certain only that they found his DNA on the sheath by the time they wrote the PCA. DNA tests take time and I'm pretty confident that many were run on this crime scene. We know nothing about the remaining results, but I think it's a mistake to assume that none of the other results included BK's. It's certainly possible that they did not, but we don't yet know. :)
RB&SBM: We know that the Idaho State Lab itself extracted the dna from the button snap of the sheath before the IGG route was first undertaken. We know that for a fact, Imo, from both the PCA and the State's Motion for Protective Order and additional filing in support of that Motion.



Guessing that the dna suspect sample had been extracted by ISL around end of first week of December to give the IGG team a couple of weeks to do their stuff (Moo and speculation).
 
  • #404
Option 1 would include any scenario in which he is guilty and some in which he is not guilty. Somehow, if he did this, BK managed not to get any other shred of his DNA in 1122 King Rd, so the DNA on the snap would logically have gotten there at some time prior to the time of the murders.

Option 2 - is actually very likely and here is a real life example of Option 2 actually happening - so not only is this scenario possible, it has actually happened before AND people have been wrongly convicted. Here is but one example:


"We leave traces of our genetic material everywhere, even on things we’ve never touched. That got Lukis Anderson charged with a brutal crime he didn’t commit."

"Back in the 1980s, when DNA forensic analysis was still in its infancy, crime labs needed a speck of bodily fluid — usually blood, semen or spit — to generate a genetic profile.

That changed in 1997, when Australian forensic scientist Roland van Oorschot stunned the criminal justice world with a nine-paragraph paper titled “DNA Fingerprints from Fingerprints.” It revealed that DNA could be detected not just from bodily fluids but from traces left by a touch. Investigators across the globe began scouring crime scenes for anything — a doorknob, a countertop, a knife handle — that a perpetrator may have tainted with incriminating “touch” DNA.

But van Oorschot’s paper also contained a vital observation: Some people’s DNA appeared on things that they had never touched."



Option 3 - where this could come into play is the fact the Idaho crime lab found no DNA on the sheath at all. The DNA on the sheath was not discovered until the sheath was sent to a lab in Texas. So that brings into question the entire chain of custody as well as if it was partial or a complete DNA sequence. Could the lab in Texas have taken a partial DNA sequence, and recombined it to create a genealogical DNA profile that pointed to the wrong family? Well, it seems with partial DNA that is very possible. How Forensic DNA Evidence Can Lead to Wrongful Convictions - JSTOR Daily

"The ABA urged lawyers not to oversell DNA evidence and suggested that courts take the standards of the lab into account when considering DNA evidence. “Telling a jury it is implausible that anyone besides the suspect would have the same DNA test results is seldom, if ever, justified,” the report states."

"Partial profiles will match up with many more people than a full profile. And even full profiles may match with a person other than the culprit. Further complicating matters, a single DNA profile might be mistakenly generated when samples from multiple people are accidentally combined. It’s a messy world."

"At times, DNA evidence has been misused or misunderstood, leading to miscarriages of justice. A man with Parkinson’s disease who was unable to walk more than a few feet without assistance was convicted of a burglary based on a partial DNA profile match. His lawyer insisted on more DNA tests, which exonerated him. In 2011, Adam Scott’s DNA matched with a sperm sample taken from a rape victim in Manchester—a city Scott, who lived more than 200 miles away, had never visited. Non-DNA evidence subsequently cleared Scott. The mixup was due to a careless mistake in the lab, in which a plate used to analyze Scott’s DNA from a minor incident was accidentally reused in the rape case.

Then there’s the uncomfortable and inconvenient truth that any of us could have DNA present at a crime scene—even if we were never there. Moreover, DNA recovered at a crime scene could have been deposited there at a time other than when the crime took place. Someone could have visited beforehand or stumbled upon the scene afterward. Alternatively, their DNA could have arrived via a process called secondary transfer, where their DNA was transferred to someone else, who carried it to the scene."

This case is such an incredibly heinous crime it is imperative, IMO, that we know for certain that the perpetrator has been caught. Otherwise that criminal or those criminals will be free do this again and that is terrifying.
His buccal swab matches the sheath.
Ortham lab specialized in very small samples.
The police did not plant the DNA.
 
  • #405
The STR profile developed by Idaho State Lab occurred before dna sample was submitted for IGG. No chain of custody issue. Chain of custody from collection of sheathe to ISL to extraction of dna sample and developement of STR profile is available to the Defense already through discovery. Moo

This quote helps explain the process (Moo):

"Prior to the FBl’s IGG efforts, the ISP laboratory developed the traditional STR
DNA profile from the DNA found on the KaBar knife sheath.
After identification of
Defendant law enforcement recovered trash from the home of Defendant’s
parents and ISP laboratory did STR DNA analysis of items from the trash for
comparison with the unknown crime scene DNA. That comparison indicated the DNA found on the trash
belonged to the biological father of the individual who left the DNA on the KaBar knife sheath. Pursuant to a search warrant, law enforcement then collected DNA from Defendant via a buccal swab. A traditional STR
DNA comparison was done between the STR profile found on the KaBar
knife sheath and Defendant’s DNA. The comparison showed a statistical match—
... Specifically, the STR profile is at least 5.37 octillion times more likely to be seen if
Defendant is the source than if an unrelated individual randomly selected from
the general population is the source"



Below in diagrammatic form differentiating the IGG process from the STR profile which will be used in evidence (Moo):


View attachment 440904



EBM spelling

I don't know why people continue to misunderstand or purposely misconstrue this issue.

The PCA clearly says the Idaho State Lab pulled a single source male DNA profile. It's been reported that there was no CODIS match on that profile. So LE went the genealogy route.

Why on god's green earth would LE send the sheath to a genealogy lab first, only to have it come back so they could pull their own profile to run through CODIS? (question is obviously not directed at you @jepop ) It doesn't even pass whatever is before the smell test, test.

The locally pulled DNA's chain of custody has been unquestioned to this point in court. The defense may not have seen the genealogy information yet but they have likely seen the chain of custody of the sheath. And IMO, there's nothing there. So the defense has decided to create a sideshow out of whatever happened afterwards. Attempting to mix the two into one ominous/nefarious thing.
 
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  • #406
Are there any lawyers here in the thread that can put a percentage on the chances that the defense has seen the sheath's chain of custody information by now?

i.e. (FAKE, MADE UP, LIKELY AWFUL EXAMPLE)
transported from the crime scene to the evidence locker - signed in on 1/03/2023 date by Det. John Doe
signed out to be transported to the lab on 2/04/2023 date by Det John Doe

And considering it was one of the earliest pieces of evidence. Have they had access to it for their own investigation/testing purposes yet?
 
  • #407
I don't know why people continue to misunderstand or purposely misconstrue this issue.

The PCA clearly says the Idaho State Lab pulled a single source male DNA profile.

Why on god's green earth would LE send the sheath to a genealogy lab first, only to have it come back so they could pull their own profile? (question is obviously to directed at you) It doesn't even pass whatever is before the smell test, test.

The locally pulled DNA's chain of custody has been unquestioned to this point. The defense has decided to create a sideshow out of whatever happened afterwards.
Agree. It's been questioned on and off for months, don't understand why. Now the PCA is totally backed up by the wealth of information about the ISL's work in the State's motion/s regarding protective order for the IGG. Plus I just remembered that in mid July the state also filed a very reasonable and straight-forward affidavit in support from the laboratory manager of the Idaho State Police Forensic Services.

 
  • #408
I don't know why people continue to misunderstand or purposely misconstrue this issue.

The PCA clearly says the Idaho State Lab pulled a single source male DNA profile. It's been reported that there was no CODIS match on that profile. So LE went the genealogy route.

Why on god's green earth would LE send the sheath to a genealogy lab first, only to have it come back so they could pull their own profile to run through CODIS? (question is obviously not directed at you @jepop ) It doesn't even pass whatever is before the smell test, test.

The locally pulled DNA's chain of custody has been unquestioned to this point in court. The defense may not have seen the genealogy information yet but they have likely seen the chain of custody of the sheath. And IMO, there's nothing there. So the defense has decided to create a sideshow out of whatever happened afterwards. Attempting to mix the two into one ominous/nefarious thing.
RBBM: Good point - trying to say that apples are oranges or oranges are apples. Moo
 
  • #409
In that case his intentions went completely askew.
I think he went there to kill due to how quickly it happened and the “overkill” nature of the attack.
 
  • #410
Your last sentence is pretty much the entire reason that I am interested in crime.

In the case of Kohberger, we have TapATalk messages where he says he's seen a specialist. Apparently a neurologist (but he's experiencing acute anxiety and depression and does not receive meaningful treatment for that).

And then, apparently, he goes to "rehab." After the heroin stint. And someone in his family said something about an eating disorder as well. This is in MSM, but the sources are a bit garbled. He was certainly socially isolated, per nearly every article about him in which reporters talked to classmates or "unnamed" family members.

Whether or not persons with these neuropsychiatric symptoms are more likely to be criminals, they are certainly facing challenges that others do not face, and IME, this leads to many negative outcomes.

The resistance of some people to receiving care for psychiatric symptoms is enormous and must be countered by those of us who know that (as in this case) certain brain conditions are beyond the control of the individual, and the sufferers can truly benefit from benign psychiatric intervention. By benign, I mean approaches that are medical and can be modified to suit most sufferers. I can't imagine living in a world of derealization or depersonalization, with or without the physical symptom of visual snow. Those are two very painful symptoms. Mental pain is real.

Kohberger may have been taught and believed that "will power" alone can change negative mental states. I wish that were true, but it's not. This worked for Kohberger until he found himself in a new setting, and in a very challenging real world situation. I think he ran up against his absolute mental limits and went berserk. A person with this ideation and this degree of animosity toward other people.

Four young people dead because of one person's inability to cope. He knew he had homicidal ideation - I wonder who else might have known, if anyone. If he had a therapist (which I doubt) he would have been teleconferencing with that person (and then decided not to mention that situation to the Judge when asked). I keep feeling a bit of shock that someone whose expressed the ideas that BK did in the TapATalk messages would not have been under longterm neurological and psychiatric care, given that his diagnosis warranted exactly that.

IMO. I know that no one can make another person seek help and it's ultimately all on him. I'm just thinking about the various ways that some of us (teachers in particular) can be more aware and helpful in situations like this one.


It is the only case of its kind that I can think of, although clearly this case is up there with many other inexplicable cases. The OJ case was not inexplicable. BTK is pretty much...inexplicable. Ted Bundy is another one where people have had near identical upbringings and not become serial killers.

There's so much we don't know about killers. There's also the Happy Face Killer (Jesperson) for whom it was purely opportunity - he started with rape, rapidly proceeded to murder, and when no one suspected him and he worked out a way of being nearly un-catchable, he just kept doing it. I believe that Jesperson is likely one of those with issues in the moral/decision-making part of his brain.

With Kohberger, it's still a mystery. I have this "he imploded" theory based on what I know of his life history - it's a very thin theory.

Why do we not all "implode"? I mean, I have gotten mad enough to stomp around the house muttering. Most men have clenched their fists and at least thought about punching someone, once or twice (even if they have to reach through a TV screen).

But what makes someone murder four young people, strangers or near strangers?

Mass murders of strangers are exceedingly rare and usually ideologically motivated, according to the research done using the US mass murderer database. A few are sexually motivated (like Speck's murder of the nurses, but that was likely also ideological).

Mass murders are usually either family annihilation OR attached to some bizarre political ideology (the Vegas shootings, many others). Some of the mass murderers are young (school shooters, etc). These murders have something of the "school shooter" to them - but with a knife. That's the only set into which I can (kind of) push Kohberger. And he's not that young, although his mental age is likely younger than 28, due to few enduring adult relationships outside his family.

This is all my opinion and speculation. One thing we do know about those whose brains don't process ethics/morality very well is that they need hard limits. They need to be told what's wrong and, well, punished for it. They DO care about themselves and their own comfort, and sometimes, they care about their immediate families as well - even if they are willing to hurt them in a terrible fashion, as Kohberger has done. When I think about him standing silent, even though I understand the legal reasons, I can't imagine what it would be like to be his parent in that moment.

IMO.
Your posts are always so illuminating.
eeither think it's worth considering --
we can't (yet) know what his intent was. Maybe 6 murders but he was interrupted. Maybe 2 murders and he didn't expect K and E to be there. Or.... it was to be one murder. Or it was to be one SA at knifepoint.

100% I believe this to be sexually motivated crime born of sexual frustration. Either a SA or a surrogate act -- thrusting with a knife.

I believe he was confident is his stealth. Over-confident.

But how does it change our grasp of the crime if we accept that K wasn't expected to be there? No K, no dog. One target, the whole third floor.

What if....

What if no K, no dog, no E, no TikTok and no 4 am door dash? No reason for X to be awake, no noise to awaken D, none to disturb B.

What if 3 roommates were asleep and stayed asleep? What if 1 offender slipped in, commit 1 murder, left the scene with his sheath and without stepping in blood? What conclusions would we draw?

I think it's entirely possible nothing was going to stop him from his attack and no one was going to prevent him from getting away. And that's why three additional victims are dead.

Why did he leave D standing? I don't think he saw her. I think his field of vision is naturally compromised, especially in periphery. He might, however, in recalling his own movements, have come to realize he passed by her, as that image might've taken time to compose itself, like how a Polaroid picture takes shape. I suspect he processes digital imagery painfully slowly. Had he seen her, had his brain processed a human body, a face looking at him, I think we know the outcome.

In fact, I suspect it took him to about his car before he realized he saw a witness and that's why he sped off and took such a circuitous route home, to shake any tails.

jmo
 
  • #411
New filing by Prosecution on COI page dated 11th August
"Objection to Defendant's Second Motion to Stay Proceedings"


There's a little more detail as to the substance (or lack thereof Imo) of defenses motion - some references to AT's affidavit that was filed under seal with the D's motion. Moo

INAL but the basis of the motion to stay seems awfully thin on the ground. As usual the state addresses each point in accordance with ICRs - it's hard for me to imagine, if the state is not outright wrong, how the Ds motion to stay will succeed. Jmo
Agreed. This Defense is picking through everything with more than a fine tooth comb. They are alleging disqualifications based on inconsistent facts as a whole, with a couple that are legitimate 'clerical' errors.

Ask any group of 30 people to fill out a questionnaire and I can guarantee you that at least 10% of those will come back with errors such as wrong date, checking wrong boxes, not signing on appropriate line, etc. That does not qualify as 'substantial failure to comply' as required by the code.

I hope JudgeJJ sees through another lame attempt to stay or reject the Grand Jury Indictment. Sheesh, I'll be on pins and needles until Friday.

MOO
 
  • #412
New filing by Prosecution on COI page dated 11th August
"Objection to Defendant's Second Motion to Stay Proceedings"


There's a little more detail as to the substance (or lack thereof Imo) of defenses motion - some references to AT's affidavit that was filed under seal with the D's motion. Moo

INAL but the basis of the motion to stay seems awfully thin on the ground. As usual the state addresses each point in accordance with ICRs - it's hard for me to imagine, if the state is not outright wrong, how the Ds motion to stay will succeed. Jmo
IANAL either but I agree that AT's motion appears to be on very thin ground. I went back to her second motion and a re-read after reading the State's objection was very educational. Her affidavit probably contains a lot of detail missing from the motion, so I'll give her that one. But, the final blanket claim that "other irregularities exist" is not supported at all within the motion, which I found very interesting, since she is requesting an investigation. Maybe it's not unusual to attach a separate affidavit instead of just putting these details in the motion, but it seemed odd to me.
 
  • #413
Technically, we can be certain only that they found his DNA on the sheath by the time they wrote the PCA. DNA tests take time and I'm pretty confident that many were run on this crime scene. We know nothing about the remaining results, but I think it's a mistake to assume that none of the other results included BK's. It's certainly possible that they did not, but we don't yet know. :)
I should have said according to Anne Taylor. There is the DNA on the sheath, and 3 unknown male DNA profiles. She doesn't mention any other BK DNA found at 1122 King Rd. so, unless and until she or some other officer of the court says there is other BK DNA there, we have to assume it doesn't exist.
For your Option 3, I believe the Idaho lab would have to already have a sample of BK's DNA in their possession before the sheath was sent to Texas and know that's who it belonged to. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the timing of events allows for that to the case.
I certainly don't think a crime lab or LE purposefully or knowingly shipped BK's DNA to Texas. However, I do think that a mixup could occur at a civilian lab.
It was not a partial match, though. I believe that would have been said by the forensics person.

It was single source DNA, which matched partially to Kohberger's dad (49.99% which is typical of a father to son match).

The sheath DNA has never been called a partial match, that I know of (except to Mr. Kohberger). It's a full match to Bryan Kohberger,

And, the chances of it being anyone else's DNA are virtually zero (incalculably small, really).
I don't know if the source DNA is partial or not. Leah Larkin's affidavit on DNA led me to think it probably is. But I can't be sure either way yet. I REALLY WISH WE HAD THE DISCOVERY!
 
  • #414
His buccal swab matches the sheath.
Ortham lab specialized in very small samples.
The police did not plant the DNA.
Nowhere have I suggested the DNA was planted by anybody. I do not believe it was planted and there is no evidence to indicate it was planted.
 
  • #415
I should have said according to Anne Taylor. There is the DNA on the sheath, and 3 unknown male DNA profiles. She doesn't mention any other BK DNA found at 1122 King Rd. so, unless and until she or some other officer of the court says there is other BK DNA there, we have to assume it doesn't exist.

I certainly don't think a crime lab or LE purposefully or knowingly shipped BK's DNA to Texas. However, I do think that a mixup could occur at a civilian lab.

I don't know if the source DNA is partial or not. Leah Larkin's affidavit on DNA led me to think it probably is. But I can't be sure either way yet. I REALLY WISH WE HAD THE DISCOVERY!
Thank you for the clarification and that's fair.

So, how would this civilian lab in another state have BK's DNA on hand in order to have a mixup?

I really wish we had the discovery too! :)

I checked the tools Ms. Larkin mentioned in her affidavit (the website is listed in the affidavit). When I used Ancestry and 23andme's DNA kits, I already had a substantial family tree and the tests helped me break down a brick wall to further extensive research I had already done. The matches I got indeed blasted the brick wall and were easily understood as to where and how they fit into my family history.

So far, at least to me, it looks like she and her business partners created automated tools to help professional genealogists work more quickly when using DNA as a starting point rather than as a supportive tool. They also offer coaching services to help people with either little to no overarching interest in family history, or little to no information about their family history, to use DNA to locate specific relatives such are parents or siblings. That seems verified by her affidavit statements that the DNA process involves evaluating the DNA results as part of building and updating multiple trees.

I know many DNA hobbyists who are surprisingly educated about reading DNA results. Time will tell how much scientific knowledge she personally has about the DNA testing process, including how errors occur, are identified and addressed. MOOooo
 
  • #416
I should have said according to Anne Taylor. There is the DNA on the sheath, and 3 unknown male DNA profiles. She doesn't mention any other BK DNA found at 1122 King Rd. so, unless and until she or some other officer of the court says there is other BK DNA there, we have to assume it doesn't exist.

I certainly don't think a crime lab or LE purposefully or knowingly shipped BK's DNA to Texas. However, I do think that a mixup could occur at a civilian lab.

I don't know if the source DNA is partial or not. Leah Larkin's affidavit on DNA led me to think it probably is. But I can't be sure either way yet. I REALLY WISH WE HAD THE DISCOVERY!

In my world. "single source male profile" means a complete profile (which is likely given the source of the DNA - I am assuming it was ample, as it usually is with touch points on tools). This typically means that the number of SNP's found in the sample puts the sample beyond statistical doubt, as the DNA of one individual. In technical terms, sufficient numbers of SNP's.

There should be enough DNA still present on that snap for non-consumptive testing (because the ISL forensics lab manual specifically states that is the path to take - if they had a partial profile, they'd run a bit more; but all it takes is ONE CELL to get the full profile).

The second reason I believe it was a (complete) profile (besides the fact that the lab called it a "profile" and not a "partial profile") is that they sent it off for genetic genealogy and got a match. By "profile," geneticists typically mean "full complement of SNP's relevant to the species in question." We don't include missing "junk DNA," nor do we look at non-identifying parts of a profile. A partial profile would have resulted in far more matches in the genealogical data base. So I believe there were sufficient SNP's in the sample to establish individual identity (a profile of a single person).

IMO
 
  • #417
IANAL either but I agree that AT's motion appears to be on very thin ground. I went back to her second motion and a re-read after reading the State's objection was very educational. Her affidavit probably contains a lot of detail missing from the motion, so I'll give her that one. But, the final blanket claim that "other irregularities exist" is not supported at all within the motion, which I found very interesting, since she is requesting an investigation. Maybe it's not unusual to attach a separate affidavit instead of just putting these details in the motion, but it seemed odd to me.
Good thoughts. I think the D's affidavit attached to 2nd motion to stay was probably sealed for privacy reasons, to protect GJ proceedings (not public) and witnesses maybe and possibly the GJ jurors themselves?. The state's objection gives a glimpse into the guts of the affidavit and contends that whatever the details in support, the motion fails to meet the requirements for a judge to grant a stay of proceedings in accordance with the law (ICRs), IMo.
 
  • #418
Agreed. This Defense is picking through everything with more than a fine tooth comb. They are alleging disqualifications based on inconsistent facts as a whole, with a couple that are legitimate 'clerical' errors.

Ask any group of 30 people to fill out a questionnaire and I can guarantee you that at least 10% of those will come back with errors such as wrong date, checking wrong boxes, not signing on appropriate line, etc. That does not qualify as 'substantial failure to comply' as required by the code.

I hope JudgeJJ sees through another lame attempt to stay or reject the Grand Jury Indictment. Sheesh, I'll be on pins and needles until Friday.

MOO
It is kinda lame right, after the big build up and.... what?.... someone ticked the wrong box?! Moo

ETA: There is a little more to it than the 'oh no, wrong box tick' from juror who maybe forgot their reading glasses that day (speculation only) but the other points the D has supposedly raised (as enumerated by the State) are all equally minor and apparently it's a stretch that the inconsistencies would be grounds for a stay either separately or taken together, according to ICRs. Moo
 
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  • #419
I guess this is a good time to mention that Kohberger has now given a buccal swab and if THAT doesn't match the profile on the sheath (which it obviously does or AT would have filed a motion), then the State has a real problem.

Also, it's unlikely any actual DNA was sent to Othram (although they do provide lab services - the lab services here were provided by ISL, pursuant to Idaho law). Once the DNA sample is run, it becomes a digital file.

Genetic genealogy is done by comparing digital files, not actual samples. No one goes and takes saliva or blood from Othram participants who sign up for the genealogy service (although Othram is happy to provide that service), the vast majority have their data files from Ancestry or 23 or they have another private service to give them the raw data.

IMO.
 
  • #420
I don't know why people continue to misunderstand or purposely misconstrue this issue.

The PCA clearly says the Idaho State Lab pulled a single source male DNA profile. It's been reported that there was no CODIS match on that profile. So LE went the genealogy route.

Why on god's green earth would LE send the sheath to a genealogy lab first, only to have it come back so they could pull their own profile to run through CODIS? (question is obviously not directed at you @jepop ) It doesn't even pass whatever is before the smell test, test.

The locally pulled DNA's chain of custody has been unquestioned to this point in court. The defense may not have seen the genealogy information yet but they have likely seen the chain of custody of the sheath. And IMO, there's nothing there. So the defense has decided to create a sideshow out of whatever happened afterwards. Attempting to mix the two into one ominous/nefarious thing.
Just conflation designed to confuse.
 
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