4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

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  • #761
If LE has cleared all of the friends. And that fact is inconsequential to the analysis of the time of the text messages (aka the text messages themselves aren't suspicious).

What are the implications then?

I'm not sure I'm understanding. Even 7am text messages wouldn't be exculpatory to BK. As it still fits the current timeline. Is this purely to make the prosecution/le look bad?
Unless text messages sent or received before the 911 call included admissions of some sort of participation in the crime, I don't think I understand how any text messages would make the prosecution look bad.
 
  • #762
 
  • #763
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  • #764
That's what this type of questioning does. On several levels. I would be very surprised if some legal assistant in AT"s office doesn't check in here (and on reddit, etc) almost every day. Further, the victims themselves may end up learning that they're being questioned and discredited online (by misstatements, no less).

It's a time for empathy. I hope they don't have to testify or if they do, that's way into the trial, WAY after the other stuff (which the Defense will not want out there for weeks) has been talked about. If I were Thompson, I wouldn't call them (but I might call one of the other people who showed up - IF those persons indicated willingness to testify).

Indeed, one of the interesting points of pre-trial will be the witness list. The State does *not* have to call either of the living victims. They can put them on the list, but not call them. And if I were Thompson, I'd start with the coldest, hardest facts - so that a few weeks (or many weeks) later, the jury will understand why the victims are uncertain, still traumatized. Indeed, some of what those two witnesses might say about the crime scene would chill the blood of any warm-hearted human.

If the Defense calls them as hostile witnesses, as a juror, I'd be folding my arms and wondering about that. It's a move that can really backfire. I can't think of a single thing that either roommate would be needed to attest to for the State. The only reason the Defense would call them would be to make it look like some information was overlooked/confusing/possibly contradictory (because the women are traumatized - which will be very clear). I'd respond vigorously with expert testimony, not cross-examination. Get rebuttal witnesses to testify about PTSD. The jury will be grateful - as they'll be suffering from it themselves, by then. Most of you have probably never been an autopsy nor seen complete autopsy photo dossiers. Almost certainly, none of the jurors (pulled from Latah County's approximate 28,000 adults) will have seen any and certainly will NOT have seen these particular autopsy photos. The description that SG gave of the wounds was pretty specific - and yet, we haven't discussed it much here (only in early threads) because it's awful. But it is consistent with someone attempting to use military-style knife techniques, that's for sure (IMO, IME).

And nothing the two victims have to say will change the DNA, the car data, the cell data, the GPS data, the video surveillance data, or potential evidence involving searching for KaBar knives online or buying one. Plus, there are some amazing other witnesses to call in about BK's state of mind (I can think of two professors). Oh, and the footprint (not just shoe) analysis.

IMO. Much speculation about trial above.
I expect that there is zero chance of DM not being called as the State's star witness. BF will likely be called as well to corroborate DM's story and explain about where XK and EC were that night - she was the witness who placed them at the Sigma Chi party until 1:45am.

"Funke told police that Chapin and Kernodle returned home at about 1:45 a.m. She also told police that Chapin didn't live at the house and that their other roommates returned home at around 2:00 a.m. and were asleep or in their rooms by 4:00 a.m."

If I was either of these women, I would WANT to appear as I would feel this was the last and possibly most important thing I could do for my murdered friends.
 
  • #765
No pic, but this from MSM

L M and D R live in an apartment building next to the residents where the four students were found.
They were cleaning their apartment Sunday when a friend messaged Rilenge and told them about the reported homicide. Musick and Rilenge looked out the window and saw police cars, along with a group of women crying while draped in emergency blankets.

  • Nov 14, 2022
 
  • #766
Unless text messages sent or received before the 911 call included admissions of some sort of participation in the crime, I don't think I understand how any text messages would make the prosecution look bad.
IMO, LE likely backed up and did forensic analysis on all of the mobile phones. MOO but I'll link to a doc straight from the FBI on how this procedure has gone down in another case. It's a PDF so depending on ones configurations it might download automatically or open in a new tab.

So if there was any involvement we would have heard about it by now...ESPECIALLY via the defense. And since they've said time and time again that BK has no connection to the victim's...and no one outside of BK has been implicated. IMO we can confidently speculate that there are no damning text messages to be found.
 
  • #767
If LE has cleared all of the friends. And that fact is inconsequential to the analysis of the time of the text messages (aka the text messages themselves aren't suspicious).

What are the implications then?

I'm not sure I'm understanding. Even 7am text messages wouldn't be exculpatory to BK. As it still fits the current timeline. Is this purely to make the prosecution/le look bad?

Or to intimidate potential witnesses, even at a subtle level?

For those two young women, it would be like knowing you something worse than an upcoming and crucial final exam, or a doctoral defense, something truly important - but of course way beyond both of those. This awful event lies up ahead of you at a date that keeps changing, as the Defense finds more things to do before trial (as is their right, that's our system).

And then, you realize that an attempt might be made to impeach you. The girls are so young to have to manage all this.

I have confidence in DA Thompson and staff to help the witnesses through this - but the more I think about it, I'll be surprised (and you guys can tell me to eat my words later) if it is the State who calls these two victims to the stand.

Unless, of course, either of them has truly surprising evidence to present. The PCA did go out of its way to prove that DM saw BK. But now that there's a DNA match, surely, that can be secondary?

IMO.
Respectfully, we can't always interpret the facial expressions or gestures of different people. A) We don't quite know what it means in a specific culture or even a different part of own country, B) individual expressions may be inconsistent with the situation. One example is so-called "pseudobulbar affect".


(The list of "causes" is interesting).

We all have seen it, at least once. Do you remember BR smiling when asked about JBR in the interview that many of us saw? People commented on it; I suspect it was merely a form of PBA (smiling or laughing that is not appropriate to the situation).

On some days i think that BK may display mild PBA, and on other days, I believe that he is awkward and tense with his body movements and facial expression, and it merely resembles PBA. In no day do i think he is smirking or smug. JMO.

(Another example: some people I grew up with were exceptionally sensitive to cold, and in cooler places, it would manifest, among other symptoms, as tense facial expression. One of them would be shivering, trembling and sneezing at 20 degrees Celcius (68 F), and it would not imply, "scared" or "sick". I assume that his affect would be "normal" in the temperature range of 22 to 40C, and "very tense" at 20 C. I don't know how BK's thermoregulation is.)

I think we have very scant evidence on which to conclude that BK has a serious neurological disorder/syndrome such as pseudobulbar affect (and yes - both Charlot and I are spelling it right - it's a syndrome that involves "affect," the general term for emotions in neuroscience and psychiatry). I see no signs whatsoever of PBA. To me, it's the opposite. He has almost no affect every time I've seen him (including the two Indiana traffic stops), he keeps the same somewhat aloof expression on his face, which is very common in academia. He seems to be intensely thinking, rather than intensely feeling (to me).

And, there are baseline emotions shown on the face that are universals, IMO. However, since we do not know BK, and only know that he claimed to have VSS (which does affect the way people gaze/stare), I agree that it's very hard to know what he's thinking and feeling. It's probably been hard for even his close family members to accurately decipher him and understand him.

In courtrooms, what I've noticed is that nearly everyone (even if laughing and joking around just outside the room), gets really sober, calm and attentive. I think BK is well within normal range for his expressions (minus, perhaps, the stare).

I assume that's a reference to the Jon Benet Ramsey case, let me know if I guessed wrong. His smiles in the courtroom are rare and seem socially appropriate (a polite smile as a greeting). This is a guy who, despite alleged issues with his temper/obstinancy/social cluelessness, is perfectly capable of seeming normal and bright, just as in that left turn traffic stop video.

IMO. I too am very interested in trying to decipher his mental states.
 
  • #768
I expect that there is zero chance of DM not being called as the State's star witness. BF will likely be called as well to corroborate DM's story and explain about where XK and EC were that night - she was the witness who placed them at the Sigma Chi party until 1:45am.

"Funke told police that Chapin and Kernodle returned home at about 1:45 a.m. She also told police that Chapin didn't live at the house and that their other roommates returned home at around 2:00 a.m. and were asleep or in their rooms by 4:00 a.m."

If I was either of these women, I would WANT to appear as I would feel this was the last and possibly most important thing I could do for my murdered friends.
Agree. And don't forget according to the defense Bethany has exculpatory information. They wanted her to testify at the preliminary hearing. She will be called as witness by the defense too.
 

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  • #769
I apologize if this has already been resolved, but the call originally went out as an unconscious person because the people calling 911 were too distraught for the operator/dispatcher/whichever to understand the situation. That is apparently the procedure for the area under those circumstances. The first officers to arrive were no doubt shocked by what they found and had to summon detectives, forensics, etc. The detective was almost 2 hours getting there because of that. I believe he was also "out of pocket" as we say in my area.
Yes, mostly, MOO.

I know Chief Fry was out of town, but I don't know about a detective also being unavailable. Could well have been -- I only know what I know.

What I want to point out is that in addition to patrol officers (some of whom also have extensive training as FTOs, etc), MPD also has experienced supervisors on shift IME.

I also want to point out that even the most experienced LEOs would have been shocked by what was found inside King Rd. That doesn't mean that solid training, experience, and professionalism doesn't still hold in spite of the shock, MOO.
 
  • #770
Agree. And don't forget according to the defense Bethany has exculpatory information. They wanted her to testify at the preliminary hearing. She will be called as witness by the defense too.

There are two ways of doing this, IMO (IANAL).

If the State calls DM, then the Defense doesn't have to call her. If the Defense calls her separately, she'll likely be a hostile witness (since she would already have testified on behalf of the State).

It's more likely that if the State calls her, then the Defense will cross-examine her thoroughly. If they then ALSO call her (as a hostile witness), that's very unusual and would make some jurors feel it was unnecessary and could have been completed during the main, State-driven portion of the trial.

AT and the Defense stating she has exculpatory evidence does not, IMO, make her a friendly witness for the Defense, especially if she has been a friendly witness for the Prosecution. A friendly witness is called on behalf of one side and cannot be cross-examined by that same side. So if the Defense were to call her a friendly witness, they cannot ask leading questions - as she would be their own, friendly witness.


Definition of Friendly Witness on NOLO site:
A witness whom you have called to testify on your behalf, and whom you may not cross-examine. If the witness testifies in a way that hurts your case, you can ask the judge to declare him or her a "hostile witness," which means that you can begin to cross-examine with leading questions.
Pretty sure I'm missing some of the legal nuances, but it's the part of approaching trials that I like the best (all the procedural stuff - although I dislike over-filing of pre-trial motions and am not alone!)

IMO.
 
  • #771
Agree. And don't forget according to the defense Bethany has exculpatory information. They wanted her to testify at the preliminary hearing. She will be called as witness by the defense too.
Thanks for the document, I like getting these documents.

Yes the defense said there could be something exculpatory from her but then her attorney said no, not true. Typical defense vs prosecution "he said she said" and often the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Kohberger’s legal team filed a subpoena in Nevada claiming that Funke has ‘exculpatory’ knowledge from the night of the murders that only she can provide the court. Funke’s attorney fired back at the defense team stating that their claim is without support.

I think if BF had exculpatory testimony that the defense would not have waited so long to subpoena her and not postponed the preliminary hearing by 6 months.

Also, what would happen with exculpatory evidence from her would be to turn the BK Case into even more of a current investigation - than it already is - because BF exculpatory evidence means there is a different suspect at large and they need to be rooted out.

Note we see zero signs of alternate suspects, no other defendants....2 Cents
 
  • #772
I’m still trying to understand how a heartfelt tribute by a loving friend at a vigil one year later warrants microanalysis as though it was a sworn statement?

I’m curious, too, to know more about the timeline!

Those involved can publicly share whatever details they want — they aren’t covered by the gag order.

All MOO, as always.
The friend is not being accused of anything, but what she said could be important in constructing the timeline of events.
 
  • #773
@NyxNY I found a proper media source for the picture. The version that was circulated on SM is a zoom of the detail on the far left side of the image (better resolution pic on the Pullman radio website).
kingroad3-scaled (2).jpg
 
  • #774
I suspect the prosecution will call both roommates.

Both sides now have access to the roommates' statements to the police. These likely contain information about whether or not they had consumed alcohol or other drugs, their physical states when they went to bed, as well as any noises they heard. Equally important, each should have given her personal recollections of discovering the crime.

Although Websleuths is victim friendly, the courts are seeking the truth. The degree of intoxication, if any, of the roommates is relevant to the accuracy of their memories. By having the prosecution call them first and elicit information suggesting that these are just two college students acting like college students, it could blunt any attempts of the defense to paint them as markedly intoxicated and unreliable.

First impressions matter, and I'm sure the prosecution would like to create positive images of these two young ladies and their testimony. The prosecution would also likely want to present a rational reason for the delay in calling 911 before the defense jumps on this.
 
  • #775
I apologize if this has already been resolved, but the call originally went out as an unconscious person because the people calling 911 were too distraught for the operator/dispatcher/whichever to understand the situation. That is apparently the procedure for the area under those circumstances. The first officers to arrive were no doubt shocked by what they found and had to summon detectives, forensics, etc. The detective was almost 2 hours getting there because of that. I believe he was also "out of pocket" as we say in my area.

I'm surprised it took 4 hours for the 2 Search Warrant quoted officers to get there. Were they out of town?
 
  • #776
Agreed, being a CJ student, I would not be surprised to learn he has studied many serial killers. We know he studied BTK. And during those studies, IMO, he has contemplated how he would have done it, without being caught.
And tried to study other criminals through his Reddit Survey
 
  • #777
I'm surprised it took 4 hours for the 2 Search Warrant quoted officers to get there. Were they out of town?

I don't know where they were, but even if just off for the day, it's not usually possible to call people in within an hour. People have obligations, have to take family home, get childcare, finish shopping, drive from where ever they live etc. Someone in management had to make the call (I think it was at least an hour until the incident commander was decided). So that takes us to 1 o'clock or a little later. Calls get made, people have to have time to get to the station - they don't usually take squad cars and crime investigation computers home on days off.

I believe that they ultimately called every single LEO available, assigning certain roles to those who got there first (reporting role is special - not done first). I believe they probably called in as many of their civilian staff as they possibly could - there were many support roles needed that day. When a person dies in a house fire, where I live, as many as 60 people will be on the scene before the body is removed (not all at once of course). The body is often still there after 8-10 hours while the scene is thoroughly investigated - even if everyone thinks they know the cause of the fire right away.

Some of the early duties include: searching the entire house for more bodies, including ductwork; making sure no bad actors are lurking nearby to have a shoot-out with police; documenting exterior properties of the house before forensics are deployed inside, crowd control, contact information from any witnesses and neighbors etc. This needed more than just those two first responding officers. I figure it took them at least an hour to assign the typical leadership roles within the group and well over an hour to get the above list of things done.

The person who wrote the PCA was one of the later-arriving officers, IIRC. Often, a person designated for that record keeping task/walk through of the crime scene part, is sent after the initial investigation has decided where people can walk, what's most important to see, perhaps even choosing a direction of travel for the reporting person.

There's usually someone designated to go with a camera. That person doesn't usually go in right away. Early forensic work needs to be prioritized (and they take their own pictures, often leaving special markers for that later photographer to capture with a special camera that carefully marks where each picture is taken).

There's no hurry to get people in until the people can be used in the special roles they've been assigned.

The person chosen to write the PCA is often one of the newer LEO's - but it's an honor and a skill, and there's a usually a clearcut choice - it's not something everyone can do. This person preps a tablet device or computer, usually in an office at the station, before they set out. They use a template, customized so that they do not forget what to record.

Where I work, no one is allowed to take their uniforms home any more, so everyone called in for special duty goes to the station first, gets quick briefing, changes, and then goes and supplies up/preps devices/start learning who has what role and who answers to whom - usually written out by yet another person who stays at the station, keeping track - that job can easily employ 3 people in a big case like this one.

At any rate, the person acting as scene recorder usually waits until they won't be in the way of the blood collectors (who themselves confer about how to do it right). Four murders in one place? To me, one body is a whole day's work for well-staffed investigations. To some extent, such an unusual crime scene is more like a training session, with everyone nervously conferring with each other in order to get it right and many on-site revisions of a basic plan.

IIRC, the bodies were not removed until around midnight. There was no time wasted by LE during any of this - some parts of the scene may require the single regional expert - who might live an hour or more away.

The Coroner arrived around the same time as the officer writing the PCA. She was her own boss and didn't feel the need (or have the ability) to get there sooner. She says she stayed only a few minutes, but she did have to set foot on the scene (IMO) to properly begin the death investigation. It needed her case number and signature.

The bodies were still there, and I'm guessing that the initial forensic work had completed around 3:30, so the others were called in. To me that's fast! And that was just the first day - there was much else to process at that house. Ever since body temperatures became the less accurate way to ascertain time of death, no one is in any hurry to do an actual physical exam of the bodies in situ before moving the - but that had to be done by someone, too.

IMO.
 
  • #778
The Coroner arrived around the same time as the officer writing the PCA. She was her own boss and didn't feel the need (or have the ability) to get there sooner. She says she stayed only a few minutes, but she did have to set foot on the scene (IMO) to properly begin the death investigation. It needed her case number and signature.
RSBM

For those interested, you can watch what Latah County Coroner Cathy Mabbutt had to say about when she was notified, when she arrived, why she arrived when she did, etc in this 11/15/2022 interview with KREM News:

EBM to add the coroner’s full title.
 
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  • #779
So Coroner Kathy is notified at just after 12:00 noon, and arrives at 5-5:30pm. The reason she gives for waiting is to let "law enforcement finish...' (their investigation...taking videos and pictures of everything," as she says.

I imagine she got an alert that the scene was ready for the next wave of people. She also mentions that they "start talking with people."

She says the autopsies are scheduled for Nov 16, if anyone is trying to keep a timeline. The bodies were transported to Spokane, of course.
 
  • #780
Or to intimidate potential witnesses, even at a subtle level?

For those two young women, it would be like knowing you something worse than an upcoming and crucial final exam, or a doctoral defense, something truly important - but of course way beyond both of those. This awful event lies up ahead of you at a date that keeps changing, as the Defense finds more things to do before trial (as is their right, that's our system).

And then, you realize that an attempt might be made to impeach you. The girls are so young to have to manage all this.

I have confidence in DA Thompson and staff to help the witnesses through this - but the more I think about it, I'll be surprised (and you guys can tell me to eat my words later) if it is the State who calls these two victims to the stand.

Unless, of course, either of them has truly surprising evidence to present. The PCA did go out of its way to prove that DM saw BK. But now that there's a DNA match, surely, that can be secondary?

IMO.


I think we have very scant evidence on which to conclude that BK has a serious neurological disorder/syndrome such as pseudobulbar affect (and yes - both Charlot and I are spelling it right - it's a syndrome that involves "affect," the general term for emotions in neuroscience and psychiatry). I see no signs whatsoever of PBA. To me, it's the opposite. He has almost no affect every time I've seen him (including the two Indiana traffic stops), he keeps the same somewhat aloof expression on his face, which is very common in academia. He seems to be intensely thinking, rather than intensely feeling (to me).

And, there are baseline emotions shown on the face that are universals, IMO. However, since we do not know BK, and only know that he claimed to have VSS (which does affect the way people gaze/stare), I agree that it's very hard to know what he's thinking and feeling. It's probably been hard for even his close family members to accurately decipher him and understand him.

In courtrooms, what I've noticed is that nearly everyone (even if laughing and joking around just outside the room), gets really sober, calm and attentive. I think BK is well within normal range for his expressions (minus, perhaps, the stare).

I assume that's a reference to the Jon Benet Ramsey case, let me know if I guessed wrong. His smiles in the courtroom are rare and seem socially appropriate (a polite smile as a greeting). This is a guy who, despite alleged issues with his temper/obstinancy/social cluelessness, is perfectly capable of seeming normal and bright, just as in that left turn traffic stop video.

IMO. I too am very interested in trying to decipher his mental states.

Thank you.

Maybe we are not even able to decipher everything today. Some peculiarities of brain wiring, that we may be unable to pinpoint nor map... I remember Chikatilo, a scary serial killer, who actually, was surprisingly functional and obviously, had high IQ. But to me, he appears to be on the border of certain neurodivergency and a mild form of cerebral palsy. Was it genetics, the result of trauma in labor (this aspect is almost never discussed). Or maybe Holodomor contributed, as severest nutritional deficiency can affect the brain? Whatever it was, we surely didn't get any answer.

I have same questions about Kohberger. Some genetic load, how was his birth, any head trauma in childhood? MOO, there can be certain atypicality, but in itself, it explains little, as such people may show very different behaviors. How did his food restriction contribute to his symptoms? If today Mary Todd Lincoln's mental symptoms are attributed to pernicious anemia, what do we know about nutrition, mood and decision-making? She died in a mental institution, but her symptoms were previously attributed to bipolar disorder; no one thought of vitamin B12 deficiency.


At least I believe that in BK's case, some medical studies might be warranted. For the future, for prevention.
 
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