4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

[BeginnerSleuther]

Again, I agree that BK was not set up.

It was very late when I made that post. I didn't expand on what I was saying but yes, that would be the other part of it. Why those 4 if just to set him up? As you said, someone who had their own motive for committing this crime. So whoever it was (hypothetically) would have (maybe, speculation) had a problem with BK and KG,MM, XK &EC (or a problem with some of them).

I don't think it's likely either. It just seems like the idea of a setup needs to be discussed in order to see how unlikely it would be. JMO.

I mean, it does happen. It doesn't necessarily mean the purpose is to set up some specific person. It just means they set up someone else to avoid taking the blame. JMO

 

[10ofRods]

I mean, it does happen. It doesn't necessarily mean the purpose is to set up some specific person. It just means they set up someone else to avoid taking the blame. JMO

But in this case, the culprits did choose to go out of their way to somehow get an object from BK (with his DNA already on it) or to place his and only his DNA on the sheath.

Would the theory be that these people or person chose him randomly (not realizing that he coincidentally drives around at night) or did they already know of his night driving? Seems to me the second is more logical, but I'm open to either interpretation.

The person who got "set up" is just one person - I'd be very surprised if it's completely random, it's a lot of work to go to, setting someone up. If I'm getting this theory correctly, the real murderer came pre-prepared to set up BK. The killer must not be driving BK's Elantra, because BK says he was driving it himself.

Does the set-up theory include the real murderer already possessing an Elantra (so they choose BK for his car?)

If it was random, that's unusual and I can't think of any cases of that type. If, on the other hand, the real murderer had a true grudge against BK, it would make more sense. To me, anyway.

IMO.

Why bother “setting him up” when it would have been easier to eliminate him. None of it makes sense from drug gang perspective. Drive-by bullet to BK and it’s done. Getting his dna, put it under a snap on sheath and planting it? Too much effort when your biz is selling drugs to students.

Oh, I totally agree. Either the real murderer had a tremendous grudge against BK (and still does and is hiding somewhere feeling pleased with themselves - and BK must have no clue who it could be, which is weird) OR they went to a lot of trouble to frame him, which I find it spectacularly difficult to believe was just a random choice to cast suspicion away from themselves. And what was BK doing, that made his epithelial DNA so available to someone? In what context could it even have been collected and then placed into the snap? If it happened that way, this has to be quite the long term criminal, I'd think.

And clever to the point of Evil Genius, since they managed to keep their own DNA mostly off the sheath. The Defense really should demand some further (consumptive) testing of the rest of the sheath if they suspect this (but they haven't, so far as we know). Because the real killer would have had to have remained masked and gloved throughout this entire process. How the real killer could even find and know they had BK's DNA for this scheme is beyond me. It would be easier to say that some terrible person stole BK's knife (with sheath) while masked and gloved and did not know BK's DNA was lodged in the snap thereby accidentally implicating BK, rather than a set-up (to me). Both are hard to believe, though.

IMO.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

But in this case, the culprits did choose to go out of their way to somehow get an object from BK (with his DNA already on it) or to place his and only his DNA on the sheath.

Would the theory be that these people or person chose him randomly (not realizing that he coincidentally drives around at night) or did they already know of his night driving? Seems to me the second is more logical, but I'm open to either interpretation.

The person who got "set up" is just one person - I'd be very surprised if it's completely random, it's a lot of work to go to, setting someone up. If I'm getting this theory correctly, the real murderer came pre-prepared to set up BK. The killer must not be driving BK's Elantra, because BK says he was driving it himself.

Does the set-up theory include the real murderer already possessing an Elantra (so they choose BK for his car?)

If it was random, that's unusual and I can't think of any cases of that type. If, on the other hand, the real murderer had a true grudge against BK, it would make more sense. To me, anyway.

IMO.




Oh, I totally agree. Either the real murderer had a tremendous grudge against BK (and still does and is hiding somewhere feeling pleased with themselves - and BK must have no clue who it could be, which is weird) OR they went to a lot of trouble to frame him, which I find it spectacularly difficult to believe was just a random choice to cast suspicion away from themselves. And what was BK doing, that made his epithelial DNA so available to someone? In what context could it even have been collected and then placed into the snap? If it happened that way, this has to be quite the long term criminal, I'd think.

And clever to the point of Evil Genius, since they managed to keep their own DNA mostly off the sheath. The Defense really should demand some further (consumptive) testing of the rest of the sheath if they suspect this (but they haven't, so far as we know). Because the real killer would have had to have remained masked and gloved throughout this entire process. How the real killer could even find and know they had BK's DNA for this scheme is beyond me. It would be easier to say that some terrible person stole BK's knife (with sheath) while masked and gloved and did not know BK's DNA was lodged in the snap thereby accidentally implicating BK, rather than a set-up (to me). Both are hard to believe, though.

IMO.

This is not my theory so I'm not going to speak to the specifics of it. My point was simply that IF he was framed, it doesn't mean the killer killed solely so they could frame him.

IMO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think KG's door was closed. Murphy the dog was in her room.

KG and MM were in MM's room and I don't recall reading one way or the other about that door.

MOO

What I don't understand is what went on with that poor dog. As anyone who has been a dog owner will know, dog wakes up at sunrise and wants out for a pee.

We are led to believe it wasn't until late morning that the other occupants of the house surfaced. The dog would have been non stop barking and howling by that time of day, scratching and pawing and biting at the door / door frame, running back and forth to the window etc. Poor thing locked in a room on it's own in unusual circumstances and able to hear the noise of the world outside.

Was there any mention of the surviving house mates noticing the dog in distress because I don't recall any? Also who attended to the dog when it became clear there was at least one housemate not conscious? Someone must have surely gone up to the top of the house to release the frantic dog long before the emergency services got there?

JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

But in this case, the culprits did choose to go out of their way to somehow get an object from BK (with his DNA already on it) or to place his and only his DNA on the sheath.

Would the theory be that these people or person chose him randomly (not realizing that he coincidentally drives around at night) or did they already know of his night driving? Seems to me the second is more logical, but I'm open to either interpretation.

The person who got "set up" is just one person - I'd be very surprised if it's completely random, it's a lot of work to go to, setting someone up. If I'm getting this theory correctly, the real murderer came pre-prepared to set up BK. The killer must not be driving BK's Elantra, because BK says he was driving it himself.

Does the set-up theory include the real murderer already possessing an Elantra (so they choose BK for his car?)

If it was random, that's unusual and I can't think of any cases of that type. If, on the other hand, the real murderer had a true grudge against BK, it would make more sense. To me, anyway.

IMO.




Oh, I totally agree. Either the real murderer had a tremendous grudge against BK (and still does and is hiding somewhere feeling pleased with themselves - and BK must have no clue who it could be, which is weird) OR they went to a lot of trouble to frame him, which I find it spectacularly difficult to believe was just a random choice to cast suspicion away from themselves. And what was BK doing, that made his epithelial DNA so available to someone? In what context could it even have been collected and then placed into the snap? If it happened that way, this has to be quite the long term criminal, I'd think.

And clever to the point of Evil Genius, since they managed to keep their own DNA mostly off the sheath. The Defense really should demand some further (consumptive) testing of the rest of the sheath if they suspect this (but they haven't, so far as we know). Because the real killer would have had to have remained masked and gloved throughout this entire process. How the real killer could even find and know they had BK's DNA for this scheme is beyond me. It would be easier to say that some terrible person stole BK's knife (with sheath) while masked and gloved and did not know BK's DNA was lodged in the snap thereby accidentally implicating BK, rather than a set-up (to me). Both are hard to believe, though.

IMO.

IMO if there's been any possibility of a 'set up' it could only truly have been perpetrated by LE themselves - which I AM NOT stating is something that has happened in any way whatsoever - but it would be the only possible explanation for anyone with the motivation and ability to do so.

Motivation would be we have to be seen to solve this horrific murder case and we have no clue who's done it. Fit up the nearest available strangely behaved bloke who luckily also drives around the area in the small hours. Clearly this is not the case as it's not credible and doesn't explain other issues. JMO

 

[10ofRods]

What I don't understand is what went on with that poor dog. As anyone who has been a dog owner will know, dog wakes up at sunrise and wants out for a pee.

We are led to believe it wasn't until late morning that the other occupants of the house surfaced. The dog would have been non stop barking and howling by that time of day, scratching and pawing and biting at the door / door frame, running back and forth to the window etc. Poor thing locked in a room on it's own in unusual circumstances and able to hear the noise of the world outside.

Was there any mention of the surviving house mates noticing the dog in distress because I don't recall any? Also who attended to the dog when it became clear there was at least one housemate not conscious? Someone must have surely gone up to the top of the house to release the frantic dog long before the emergency services got there?

JMO MOO

Our dogs know to just go to their pee pad, which is always available when we leave and they can't go outside - which we do every work day of the year. I know lots of people who do this. Yeah, it's gross-sounding to non dog owners, but we're fine with it. The older dog doesn't like rainy weather, so for the past three days she's trotted happily to our laundry room, where she has pee pads. We pick them up and toss them every day.

Many college students use this method, as dogs don't just want to pee in the morning - they often pee several times a day, if they're healthy. Our dogs make no sound whatsoever when they want to go outside, they go stand by the door. Sometimes one will pace back and forth to get our attention. This has been true of all my dogs and my dad's dogs too - no barking, pawing or biting at doors.

As far as we know, no one went up to the third floor of the house until LE arrived. LE definitely did. In fact, I believe it may be in the PCA. So I don't think there was a frantic dog.

IMO.

 

[Boxer]

Prepared... as in preplanning/premeditation? Or as in fantasizing? I think both personally. As far as randomness, I'm not so sure. BK could have walked into anything, I feel like he had some idea of who was there, how many there were etc.

I could see a total psychopath buying whatever is necessary to carry out their fantasy and then looking for a victim, but that could be exactly what BK did.

Also, at least to me, it seems that 1122 is out of the way and the layout is not straightforward or easy to navigate. For BK to have only taken approx 10 minutes to commit 4 murders means he must have known to a degree where he was going. Or at the very least, replayed going through in his mind repeatedly until he memorized it.

MOO I believe he had a kit in his car ready to go.
We know he had the usual weapons for a man of his age and back ground, at minimum of handgun back in PA and a fighting knife.
I believe his night time drives were punctuated occosionally with entering homes hot prowling.
He had been a addict, how did he pay for it?
But then his life shaped up and that starkly left the problem he had with women.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Our dogs know to just go to their pee pad, which is always available when we leave and they can't go outside - which we do every work day of the year. I know lots of people who do this. Yeah, it's gross-sounding to non dog owners, but we're fine with it. The older dog doesn't like rainy weather, so for the past three days she's trotted happily to our laundry room, where she has pee pads. We pick them up and toss them every day.

Many college students use this method, as dogs don't just want to pee in the morning - they often pee several times a day, if they're healthy. Our dogs make no sound whatsoever when they want to go outside, they go stand by the door. Sometimes one will pace back and forth to get our attention. This has been true of all my dogs and my dad's dogs too - no barking, pawing or biting at doors.

As far as we know, no one went up to the third floor of the house until LE arrived. LE definitely did. In fact, I believe it may be in the PCA. So I don't think there was a frantic dog.

IMO.

I agree there may have been pee pads and anyway the dog can toilet itself inside the room = the dog wouldn't mind.

Any dog I've ever known would have been going out of it's mind to be unexpectedly locked alone when it isn't usually, for an extended period, unable to hear it's usual human companions, and also when there's been all sorts of strange noises and coming and going, plus by the time there'd been phone calls and friends coming and going and LE arriving, the dog would surely have been hearing lots of strange noises, different voices and be very confused and crying out for attention? It was only a pup after all and full of energy. I'm surprised this wasn't made more a 'thing' of in early reports. I guess the dog could have been resting quietly but I wouldn't find that likely.

 

[Swansee]

@Observe_dont_Absorb
It's a classic: the dog that didn't bark in the night. Except this one did, but apparently, only at the exact time the murders were taking place, and then never made a sound again until the police arrived. Which is odd. I agree with you that I would have expected that dog to not remain silent afterwards for eight hours.
I would add to what you listed, that the dog would probably have been aware of the smell of blood in the house, much earlier and more intensely than the surviving roommates. Poor Murphy.

 

[10ofRods]

MOO I believe he had a kit in his car ready to go.
We know he had the usual weapons for a man of his age and back ground, at minimum of handgun back in PA and a fighting knife.
I believe his night time drives were punctuated occosionally with entering homes hot prowling.
He had been a addict, how did he pay for it?
But then his life shaped up and that starkly left the problem he had with women.

The way you wrote that made me realize that he likely took up the hot prowling DURING the addiction phase (as so many heroin addicts do) and then, as with Joe DeAngelo, it became the replacement addiction (along with the strenuous dietary and exercise regime).

Makes sense. Thank you - that's helping me make sense of the motivations/compulsions behind this crime (which is pretty much one-of-a-kind, to my way of thinking).

So it's possible that he had a kind of mental map of neighborhoods and houses that he liked to observe/creep on, etc. When he was feeling certain urges (the same ones that make a person crave heroin - which we non-users/non-addicts do not quite understand), he went out and drove around, festering and pondering whether to just be a Peeping Tom or to do the full on Hot Prowl. I'm not saying this happened - this is CONJECTURE, but a year later, I'm finding my mind wants to settle on some kind of explanation. Sort of like Elliot Rodger.

Above is IMO and speculation.

 

[gremlin444]

RBBM

I also think BK closed the door.

I was thinking more long the lines of glove "prints" as opposed to DNA or actual prints but if BK closed the door, his gloves must have been layered/clean (if layered, where did he learn this? I know from friends who work in healthcare) or he used something to close it like a rag. Any marks on the door or handle would have likely been seen by DM.

KG and MMs doors were left open, correct? If this was so carefully planned, was BK not expecting DM and BF to be there? Where did he dump all the evidence?? Asking no one in particular, just posing questions.

KG's door would have been closed because that's where Murphy was found.

Xana's door--I would expect that his gloves would have been bloody at that point, esp given the level of self-defense wounds reported for Xana. If there is no victim blood on the door handle, then either he covered his gloved hand with an unbloodied part of his shirt hem (I think his shirt sleeves would have been bloodied) or he used his forearm/elbow to hook the door knob and pull the door shut (using a bit of momentum to help it close fully). I tested with my bedroom doors at home, and I can close them with my forearm--as it gets close to the door frame (as I'm standing in the hall), I have to take my forearm off of it, but if I've pulled strongly enough before that then the momentum closes the door and it latches. That method makes the door close a bit more noisily than I, as a killer, would like to have happen, but everyone's door will differ.

 

[whiterhino]

MOO I believe he had a kit in his car ready to go.
We know he had the usual weapons for a man of his age and back ground, at minimum of handgun back in PA and a fighting knife.
I believe his night time drives were punctuated occosionally with entering homes hot prowling.
He had been a addict, how did he pay for it?
But then his life shaped up and that starkly left the problem he had with women.

I'd forgotten about the "hot prowling"!!!

I agree, BK was out there marauding in the night on more than one occasion. The fact that he entered and left so easily, good point, he had experience with sneaking in and out.

Also good point he had the items necessary to strike whenever he was ready. However, (IMO) I'm not so sure if he was really driving around, looking for a victim. I think rather than waiting for a victim to cross his path, he surveilled. I don't think BK was opportunistic in that way. JMO.

 

[Chloegirl]

The way you wrote that made me realize that he likely took up the hot prowling DURING the addiction phase (as so many heroin addicts do) and then, as with Joe DeAngelo, it became the replacement addiction (along with the strenuous dietary and exercise regime).

Makes sense. Thank you - that's helping me make sense of the motivations/compulsions behind this crime (which is pretty much one-of-a-kind, to my way of thinking).

So it's possible that he had a kind of mental map of neighborhoods and houses that he liked to observe/creep on, etc. When he was feeling certain urges (the same ones that make a person crave heroin - which we non-users/non-addicts do not quite understand), he went out and drove around, festering and pondering whether to just be a Peeping Tom or to do the full on Hot Prowl. I'm not saying this happened - this is CONJECTURE, but a year later, I'm finding my mind wants to settle on some kind of explanation. Sort of like Elliot Rodger.

Above is IMO and speculation.

I have always felt that during addiction perpetrators do what they "have to" do to get what they "need" and that the voyeurism that comes with it stayed. He may have kicked the habit, but felt the urge to be in and around others homes with fuller lives, nicer things, seeking what could be used as currency. Finding other things of his own personal interest.

The boldness that is required to go into a home and even stare at people while sleeping boggles the mind. He may not have been able to do this and instead observed from afar or installed technology. While this is unimaginable for regular folks, I think this was a compulsion, a sort of residue from being an addict, feeding his criminal ways that were reinforced during the addiction phase. Of course not all addicts are criminals so it doesn't apply to everyone but could here. It is unlikely he sought treatment for that aspect of his behavior. Is THIS what drove him to do something like a quadruple murder? Absolutely unfathomable. JMOO

 

[jepop]

@Observe_dont_Absorb
It's a classic: the dog that didn't bark in the night. Except this one did, but apparently, only at the exact time the murders were taking place, and then never made a sound again until the police arrived. Which is odd. I agree with you that I would have expected that dog to not remain silent afterwards for eight hours.
I would add to what you listed, that the dog would probably have been aware of the smell of blood in the house, much earlier and more intensely than the surviving roommates. Poor Murphy.

There is audio of a dog barking, per PCA, but I dont recall Murphy being named as the specific dog.Moo. The audio, from a neighbour c 50 feet N/W of 1122 from memory, also picks up a thud at about the same time (seems to coincide with the onset of barking). It may have been Murphy but may also have been another dog. I wonder if that N/W neighbour owned a dog.

I really don't think it's possible to state with any certainty that Murphy never made another sound until police arrived. We have no info. For all we know he may have wined or yelped a bit and the surviving roomates did not hear or heard and ignored.Moo and tossing out one of any number of scenarios I can imagine. Others might remember better than me what was reported about Murphy's nature and propensities (if anything was) back in the day. I'm not knowledgable on that but recall from earlier threads that quite a few posters looked for reported info re Murphy's character. All Moo.

EBM spelling

 

[whiterhino]

Your original post said it matches the murder weapon. Again, we don't have the murder weapon, so we don't know that it matches the murder weapon.

Not necessarily. Sure if he was buying drugs at the exact same time as the murders, maybe. But his phone was turned off at the exact same time as the murders, so there's no reason for them to even say he was in the area. The only reason to use that alibi is if his phone pinged in the area and they want to say why -- like on the 12 occasions they claim he was in the area or on the morning of the murders after 9 am. That wouldn't prove an alibi for the crime itself, just a reason for his phone to have pinged in the area.

Yes, it is a matter of wording. This is not what's going on in this case, based on the reports.

MOO

I quoted my own original post which said "On a sheath that matches with the murder weapon."

Your reply post said "It just matches the type of weapon used. JMO"
Now you're saying we don't know if it matches at all bc LE don't have the weapon.

We both said it matches the weapon. I didn't say the sheath belonged to the knife. Is there a difference between how I said it and how you said it? You added "just". Please do not misconstrue what I wrote.

My comment about BK being in the area buying drugs was in response to another poster saying maybe BK was in the area buying drugs that night. So I was simply asking, does that not go towards an alibi?

Again, the original poster said transfer DNA. I believe they meant touch DNA. As I already explained, that is what I found when I googled "transfer DNA".

Matter of wording... no kidding.

 

[Boxer]

I'd forgotten about the "hot prowling"!!!

I agree, BK was out there marauding in the night on more than one occasion. The fact that he entered and left so easily, good point, he had experience with sneaking in and out.

Also good point he had the items necessary to strike whenever he was ready. However, (IMO) I'm not so sure if he was really driving around, looking for a victim. I think rather than waiting for a victim to cross his path, he surveilled. I don't think BK was opportunistic in that way. JMO.

Agree.
It may have been that way.
OTOH though the circling is like someone getting increasing wrapped up to take action.

 

[Karin1974]

Honestly, IMO, if the DNA identification of BK is allowed (which it will) and the other evidence the prosecution is likely to present.... this case at this point does not even look difficult for a conviction. His behavior driving around and in PA will look very damning.

His DNA matches that on the protected part of the knife sheath. Explain that away defense.

IMO - There is no explaining it all away! However, there will always be those who want to play the devil’s advocate, thankfully, there are people here like @10ofRods around who are able to explain it so it is understood by laypeople like myself.

 

[Boxer]

I agree there may have been pee pads and anyway the dog can toilet itself inside the room = the dog wouldn't mind.

Any dog I've ever known would have been going out of it's mind to be unexpectedly locked alone when it isn't usually, for an extended period, unable to hear it's usual human companions, and also when there's been all sorts of strange noises and coming and going, plus by the time there'd been phone calls and friends coming and going and LE arriving, the dog would surely have been hearing lots of strange noises, different voices and be very confused and crying out for attention? It was only a pup after all and full of energy. I'm surprised this wasn't made more a 'thing' of in early reports. I guess the dog could have been resting quietly but I wouldn't find that likely.

Maybe due to being in a crate or bathroom during parties, the dog became accustomed to noise and oddness.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

I agree there may have been pee pads and anyway the dog can toilet itself inside the room = the dog wouldn't mind.

Any dog I've ever known would have been going out of it's mind to be unexpectedly locked alone when it isn't usually, for an extended period, unable to hear it's usual human companions, and also when there's been all sorts of strange noises and coming and going, plus by the time there'd been phone calls and friends coming and going and LE arriving, the dog would surely have been hearing lots of strange noises, different voices and be very confused and crying out for attention? It was only a pup after all and full of energy. I'm surprised this wasn't made more a 'thing' of in early reports. I guess the dog could have been resting quietly but I wouldn't find that likely.

Murphy had lived his entire life in a very busy college living environment, MOO.

MOO, he was well-adjusted to his real life environment.

Living in a college town, I’ve known many dogs who adjusted well to the kind of environment Murphy was living in.

I’ve also known dogs who didn’t adjust well, of course. They tend to wind up getting rehired or sadly wind up at our humane society.

LOL — in the early days, we all understandably wanted much more Murphy info! IIRC, he has his own IG that his dad posts pics to some here follow.

As always, all MOO & thanks for taking my brain to happy “Murphy after the heinous murders” memories. He’s very loved by thousands of fans.

 

[DFWNF]

Murphy had lived his entire life in a very busy college living environment, MOO.

MOO, he was well-adjusted to his real life environment.

Living in a college town, I’ve known many dogs who adjusted well to the kind of environment Murphy was living in.

I’ve also known dogs who didn’t adjust well, of course. They tend to wind up getting rehired or sadly wind up at our humane society.

LOL — in the early days, we all understandably wanted much more Murphy info! IIRC, he has his own IG that his dad posts pics to some here follow.

As always, all MOO & thanks for taking my brain to happy “Murphy after the heinous murders” memories. He’s very loved by thousands of fans.

Bbm I try to put my brain in that frame of mind too Nony. Thanks for the reminder for us all.