4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #91

[whiterhino]

Poor Mr. Goncalves, he seems to be a very emotional man, and perhaps is finding it more difficult than the other parents to even begin to recover from such an awful tragedy. And it seems to me that in his extreme pain and grief, he is often angry, and lashing out at the world. So I am not surprised that he didn't want the house demolished. Nevertheless, it may help him to heal a little eventually. I hope it does.

That's why I commented that it isn't really about the forensic aspect re: demolishing the house.

My heart goes out to him and the other families. Grief does things to people.

 

[whiterhino]

There was never talk of the university offering it for sale or a fundraiser effort to purchase the property, as I recall.. no g f moi or anything of the like. Too little too late on that one, and I would imagine SG has the funds to purchase the property if offered, it wasn't valued at an exorbitant amount.

I still think this was a terrible move by the university, saving its social reputation and it has so much clout within the entire town (the town runs on the economy of the students and the uni itself) that they decided how it was going to go.

The house was donated to the university by the owner/landlord. There was no option for any family to purchase as it wasn't on the market.

It's ridiculous IMO that ppl are suggesting the father of a murder victim buy the home they were killed in

It's perfectly understandable why any of the families might be against the tear down. I'm actually surprised so many think it was about preserving evidence when it was about sentiment. Again JMO MOO IMO.

 

[whiterhino]

The families do not all agree. There are four of them.

IMO. That's why we have courts of Justice. If someone had raised funds (all the internet people who want the house to remain because SG wants it to remain), then it could have been purchased.

The families are *not* all on the same page. Ethan's family in particular has had different views.

IMO.

Was the house even for sale? IIRC it wasn't listed, it was donated. No opportunity for a sale. Good IMO would be in poor taste to try and sell it.

 

[Cool Cats]

The house was donated to the university by the owner/landlord. There was no option for any family to purchase as it wasn't on the market.

It's ridiculous IMO that ppl are suggesting the father of a murder victim buy the home they were killed in

It's perfectly understandable why any of the families might be against the tear down. I'm actually surprised so many think it was about preserving evidence when it was about sentiment. Again JMO MOO IMO.

Steve Goncalves himself seems to admit keeping the house is more sentimental.

For Steve Goncalves, the house holds a deeply personal meaning, both as a place where his daughter had many of her life’s best moments and as a symbol of how he believes the community failed to keep her and her friends safe. But the more immediate issue now, he said, is preserving it to ensure there is accountability for the killings. Tearing the house down, he said, will not make the nightmare that happened there go away.

“It’s just going to be a freaking hole in the ground,” he said. “Is that somehow better?”

Should a notorious crime scene be demolished before trial?

At the house where four University of Idaho students were killed last year, sheets of plywood cover the windows. A temporary fence surrounds the yard. Security guards, posted in a blue trailer, keep watch 24 hours a day.

www.spokesman.com

 

[10ofRods]

I would say that the D picked up TV because it wasn't deemed evidence. LE had already been through the appartment with the search warrant and taken everything they were entitled to take. I'm pretty sure defense reps were there that day to look around and pick up BK's remaining items. All BK's computers, tablets and other devices with potential digital evidence were in PA with BK Imo. I recall that a 'fire stick' (?) was an item on the return of inventory for WA appartment - not really sure what that is but recall that it might be related to a tv. However Imo, the TV itself contained no potential evidentiary value. Moo

Not sure if you meant to imply the Defense was there on the same day that the first search warrant was executed. I do not think that's the case.

LE could have immediately (or even slowly) asked for more things from the site. They could have contested whether the Defense would get the leftovers, so to speak. At any rate, there was no Defense team until after the arrest. LE could have delayed the arrested if they thought they'd find more (they didn't, they were thorough the first time).

But I think the visit by the Defense was later.

The digital evidence left by browsing history (including university library browsing) has surely been collected as well. We don't know if *all* of his devices were collected. He could have sunk some of them in the Snake River, for all we know.

TV had no evidentiary value and the Firestick probably didn't either.

JMO

 

[10ofRods]

Was the house even for sale? IIRC it wasn't listed, it was donated. No opportunity for a sale. Good IMO would be in poor taste to try and sell it.

I think the University would have allowed the **families** to form a collective charity to purchase. They waited to take possession of it. No one else stepped up.

But the families weren't all equally on the same page and of course, would have had to come up with money (and liability insurance, I imagine).

The owners might have donated it to a family collective - no way of knowing, as the families didn't formulate a collective response in the first couple of months. Someone can try and find the details, but it was about 4 months after the murders, IIRC. 3-6 anyway.

University had to agree to the donation. Had any collective public action opposed the owners' and the university's deal, it is entirely possible that some other disposition would have been made. The owners lost their investment. The University gained a property it didn't really want.

However, there could have been a public effort to buy it on the down low from the owners. They just wanted out of it ASAP, IMO (as would most people).

There was opportunity for a sale. There's always opportunity for a sale before the actual change in ownership. If a group of parents had approached the owners, you think it would have been "in poor taste" for them to donate it or sell at low price to the families?

Things are sold all the time without being "for sale" or put up on open listings. I am just not going to impugn the owners as if they wouldn't have given the house to the families - had the families asked. We don't know what went on behind the scenes.

JMO

 

[Chimera]

Re the dog, I think about this a lot. He was probably crated in KG's vacated room (she had packed up and removed all personal items and bedding IIRC, hence one reason why she slept in MM's room). Probably with puppy pads underneath him for toilet accidents.

Now I don't know at what point in time that dog got removed by either housemates or LE but by the time of it, approx late morning the next day at the earliest, he would have been losing his mind.

He had probably never spent such a prolonged period alone in his entire little doggy life, used to being surrounded by countless people and passed between numerous caregivers. He would have been barking, yelping, crying, howling, and pleading for attention.

As far as a dog is concerned, it's either make a lot of noise, break your way out, or die. They don't know someone's coming or not. It's the end of the world. He would have been lonely, anxious, hungry, and needing the toilet / having soiled the crate at the very least. If he wasn't crated, he'd have been clawing and biting at the door desperately trying to break out.

In the room directly above DM? That's what I don't get and until there's an explanation I will never comprehend this aspect.

JMO MOO

Are you saying the dog would have woken the survivors up before noon ?
Omo.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Condition of 1122 King Road?

snipped for focus @Nila Aella
"P, D, Faro scanners, Chief, LE" entering 1122 King w/out protective gear? Good question.

Typically the very first LEO's at crime scene do not enter all "suited up." Later when the tech evidence personnel enter, typically they enter w coverall type suits, which are partly to PROTECT the CRIME SCENE from them, that is, to prevent the scene from being "contaminated" by their spreading their own skin & hair cells, DNA there.

In this case, I think ^that's^ what we saw in news pix & vid's.

Later there was much more DESTRUCTIVE -to -the-building evidence collection, like flooring, wall, appliance dismantling, tearing apart & partial removal. During that process which stirs up particulate matters such as asbestos, lead, silica, gypsum,& other toxins, the protective gear worn includes special coveralls & masks, designed to PROTECT them from the CRIME SCENE, iiuc.
I do not recall seeing pix or vid's of these workers entering or exiting 1122 King but was fuzzy on the time frame to search.

By the time those destructive steps were taken, I believe the private owner had already transferred title to the Uni, which may have immed.'ly decided not to restore the bldg for any use but would demolish it.
If so, Uni. would not have contracted for the expensive, time consuming process of actually removing all the asbestos & other toxins to comply w exacting standards of federal law.*

Calling "Merry Maids" or ServPro would not have been sufficient to allow jurors to enter.

IDK if any or all the various officials listed in OP did enter or if they wore any special protective gear.

I just read that some ppl entered 1122 King in Oct, but I did not catch pix of who they were or how long they stayed.

jmo

@@Nila Aella. Thank you very much for all the technical legal expertise you've brought to this case. And for your patience in answering dozens of questions.
______________________________
* See Health Hazards
https://www.epa.gov/laws-regulations/summary-toxic-substances-control-act

Drywall mechanic - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Asbestos and the law (United States) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Re toxic atmospheric hazard, I did notice that during the latter part of the demolition this morning, when an excavator was scooping debris into dump trucks, that the excavator operator's cab was open to the air (or so appeared) and that neither the excavator operator nor the men on foot watching and making sure debris went where it was intended, were wearing masks. The excavator did sometimes kick up plumes of dust and (presumably) powdered drywall.

 

[whiterhino]

Steve Goncalves himself seems to admit keeping the house is more sentimental.

For Steve Goncalves, the house holds a deeply personal meaning, both as a place where his daughter had many of her life’s best moments and as a symbol of how he believes the community failed to keep her and her friends safe. But the more immediate issue now, he said, is preserving it to ensure there is accountability for the killings. Tearing the house down, he said, will not make the nightmare that happened there go away.

“It’s just going to be a freaking hole in the ground,” he said. “Is that somehow better?”

Should a notorious crime scene be demolished before trial?

At the house where four University of Idaho students were killed last year, sheets of plywood cover the windows. A temporary fence surrounds the yard. Security guards, posted in a blue trailer, keep watch 24 hours a day.

www.spokesman.com

It's terribly sad. I hope Mr. Goncalves can find some peace eventually.

Prison is a horrible, cruel, inhumane place and that will be BKs forever home, no doubt. I hope that brings some comfort.

 

[Cool Cats]

Neighbors don't want "rubber-neckers" driving up by the house for years just to drive by and point to the house where 4 students were murdered.

I get that. If I was a neighbor, time to move on and possibly the land owner build a new house there.

Right. There are problems with "rubber-neckers" doing just that:

Vanessa Lopez, 25, lives near the home and sees it every day. She said the property had become a sort of tourist attraction, which she found disrespectful, and a constant reminder of the horrors that happened in what had always been a quiet little town.

Lopez said the wishes of the victims’ families should come first, but she would welcome seeing the house gone. “With that still being there, it just brings up the memories,” she said.

Ethan Chapin's parents are very diplomatic about it, seeing 2 sides of it:

The parents of Ethan Chapin, another one of the victims, said the situation was difficult, with no easy answers. On one hand, they agree with Steve Goncalves that demolishing the home this summer “feels very early,” said Ethan Chapin’s mother, Stacy.

But she noted that their two other children – they were triplets – are still students at the University of Idaho, and one of them has a room that looks out toward the house, providing a constant reminder.

“Our kids have to walk past that house every day,” Stacy Chapin said. “The kids, they need to heal. The university needs to heal. And the community.”

Demolishing the house is a balancing act and the truth is, no matter what they do there will be people not happy with it:

Jodi Walker, a University of Idaho spokesperson, said that the house, in the middle of a student housing area, has been a constant reminder of what transpired there. She said officials were also considering the needs of all the students and staff members on campus when they made the decision to demolish the structure.

“This is another step toward healing,” she said. “It’s definitely a balancing act.”

www.spokesman.com/stories/2023/jul/07/should-a-notorious-crime-scene-be-demolished-befor/

 

[whiterhino]

I think the University would have allowed the **families** to form a collective charity to purchase. They waited to take possession of it. No one else stepped up.

But the families weren't all equally on the same page and of course, would have had to come up with money (and liability insurance, I imagine).

The owners might have donated it to a family collective - no way of knowing, as the families didn't formulate a collective response in the first couple of months. Someone can try and find the details, but it was about 4 months after the murders, IIRC. 3-6 anyway.

University had to agree to the donation. Had any collective public action opposed the owners' and the university's deal, it is entirely possible that some other disposition would have been made. The owners lost their investment. The University gained a property it didn't really want.

However, there could have been a public effort to buy it on the down low from the owners. They just wanted out of it ASAP, IMO (as would most people).

There was opportunity for a sale. There's always opportunity for a sale before the actual change in ownership. If a group of parents had approached the owners, you think it would have been "in poor taste" for them to donate it or sell at low price to the families?

Things are sold all the time without being "for sale" or put up on open listings. I am just not going to impugn the owners as if they wouldn't have given the house to the families - had the families asked. We don't know what went on behind the scenes.

JMO

You can't buy something if it isn't for sale tho... especially a house.

People DID oppose it, there was a petition.

And not that it matters what I think but yes I do think it would be in poor taste if the owner sold it to the families. IMO wrong to make money off a sale like that and I have no doubt the owner would have made a profit seeing as how the house had been rented out for a number of years. It was likely an income property in the first place.

Who cares if they lost their investment. 4 people died. Too bad if the school didn't want it. Nobody asked for what happened. I'm not directing this at anyone, I'm just saying FWIW.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Are you saying the dog would have woken the survivors up before noon ?
Omo.

IMO I am saying the dog would have been barking frantically by that time

Whom it woke and how deeply there were asleep and if they are the sorts of people to sleep through barking, who knows. But at some point they did get up and that alone would have triggered the dog to distress call so how long was the poor thing barking and crying even more AFTER they got up and before LE got there? You'd have thought someone would have gone up to him to get him?

 

[Sundog]

You can't buy something if it isn't for sale tho... especially a house.

People DID oppose it, there was a petition.

And not that it matters what I think but yes I do think it would be in poor taste if the owner sold it to the families. IMO wrong to make money off a sale like that and I have no doubt the owner would have made a profit seeing as how the house had been rented out for a number of years. It was likely an income property in the first place.

Who cares if they lost their investment. 4 people died. Too bad if the school didn't want it. Nobody asked for what happened. I'm not directing this at anyone, I'm just saying FWIW.

We don't know if the owner of the house had paid off the mortgage on his rental house. If the rental was mortgage-free, however, the owner lost his future income on that property. The owner is a victim, too. It sounds like it was an act of generosity for the owner to donate the house to the university, with the hope that something good could come of this act, like the demolition and future healing garden or something similar in memory of the student victims.

You ask "who cares" about the owner and their property and investment. We should all care. The owner is a victim and sounds like they tried to do something decent by giving it to the university to handle sensitively, which I believe the university has done very well.

 

[Chloegirl]

Dream sequence here: There was a murder in 2010 of Rachel Anderson, a local woman from Clarkston, Washington. She was murdered by estranged husband Charles Capone (seriously that was his name, and he thought he was related to the famous Capone family). Long story shorter, his friend came clean about helping dispose of her body in the Snake River at Red Wolf Crossing Bridge. Weirdly, they looked AGAIN to find her on 11/12/23 (yes, you read that right).

I wondered if BK read up on the region and was inspired by that location with his knife disposal (again she has not been located 13 years later, RIP). Could they have found BKs knife while recently searching for Rachel Anderson? I wonder what made them look again and I mention it here only as speculation and wishful thinking. JMOO

 

[whiterhino]

We don't know if the owner of the house had paid off the mortgage on his rental house. If the rental was mortgage-free, however, the owner lost his future income on that property. The owner is a victim, too. It sounds like it was an act of generosity for the owner to donate the house to the university, with the hope that something good could come of this act, like the demolition and future healing garden or something similar in memory of the student victims.

You ask "who cares" about the owner and their property and investment. We should all care. The owner is a victim and sounds like they tried to do something decent by giving it to the university to handle sensitively, which I believe the university has done very well.

I disagree that the homeowner is a victim and even if he were considered that, he matters least of all IMHO.

 

[Chloegirl]

University of Idaho president's family once owned home where students were murdered

MOSCOW, Idaho - The president of the University of Idaho who guided his university through the trauma of four murdered students last fall has a family connection to the property

www.kxly.com

I had read this online but had not confirmed this information until now. Just announced 2 hours ago.

 

[Sleuth2010]

" U of I is planning to build a Vandal Healing Garden and Memorial, but it will be on campus, not at the site of the murders. "

IMO : Torn Too Soon. Regarding murder-horror timeline, a year seems like a week, when someone you love is murdered.

The harsh comments in general and criticism of Mr. Goncalves and his opinion/beliefs are sad. Unfathomable really.

Home where University of Idaho students were murdered comes down Thursday

MOSCOW, Idaho - Thursday marks the end of one chapter in a story that will forever haunt the community of Moscow, Idaho.

www.kxly.com

--

 

[al66pine]

Disregarding Families' Requests? Their Rights?

The
The disrespectful and disregarding of the victims' families requests are mind boggling.

snipped for focus @Sleuth2010 Agreeing that some of the victims' families' REQUESTS are not being fulfilled. Not clear to me if any victims' families' legal RIGHTS under Idaho law are being violated. If so, I've missed it and hope someone can point it out.

Here are applicable sections of ID. statutue re victims rights during investigation & prosecution of crime.
The statutes make for tedious reading for many, but a plain-English version for easier reading is linked in footnotes.*

Applicable sections of ID. statute re victims’ rights.
"19-5306. RIGHTS OF VICTIM DURING INVESTIGATION, PROSECUTION, AND DISPOSITION OF THE CRIME… “ **
“(1) Each victim of a criminal or juvenile offense shall be:
"(a) Treated with fairness, respect, dignity and privacy throughout the criminal justice process;
"(b) Permitted to be present at all criminal justice proceedings... including probation proceedings;
"(c) Entitled to a timely disposition of the case;
"(d) Given prior notification of trial court, appellate, probation and parole proceedings and, upon request, to information about the sentence, incarceration, placing on probation or release of the defendant;
"(e) Heard, upon request, at all criminal justice proceedings considering a plea of guilty, sentencing, incarceration, placing on probation or release of the defendant unless manifest injustice would result;
"(f) Afforded the opportunity to communicate with the prosecution in criminal or juvenile offenses, and be advised of any proposed plea agreement by the prosecuting attorney prior to entering into a plea agreement in criminal... involving crimes of violence, sex crimes or crimes against children;
"(g) Allowed to refuse an interview, ex parte contact or other request by the defendant or any other person acting on behalf of the defendant, unless such request is authorized by law;
"(h) Consulted by the presentence investigator during the preparation of the presentence report and have included in that report a statement of the impact which the defendant’s criminal conduct had upon the victim and shall be allowed to read, prior to the sentencing hearing, the presentence report relating to the crime. The victim shall maintain the confidentiality of the presentence report, and shall not disclose its contents to any person except statements made by the victim to the prosecuting attorney or the court;"
“(i) Assured the expeditious return of any stolen or other personal property by law enforcement agencies when no longer needed as evidence… ”
“(2) Upon the filing of a criminal complaint or juvenile petition, the prosecuting attorney shall inform the victim of the various opportunities provided by this section. The victim may exercise any of the rights provided by this section by completing a written request on a form provided by the prosecuting attorney to the clerk of the district court. The clerk thereafter shall notify the appropriate authorities of the victim’s requests. Notice thereafter shall be given to the victim at the address provided unless the victim subsequently provides a different address. The victim’s address shall be kept confidential by the court except for carrying out the provisions of this chapter.
“(3) The provisions of this section shall apply equally to the immediate families of homicide victims or immediate families of victims of such youthful age or incapacity as precludes them from exercising these rights personally. The court may designate a representative from the immediate family to exercise these rights on behalf of a deceased, incapacitated, or minor victim.”
(^ sbm, to remove only references to juvenile offences^)

And VICTIMS’ IMPACT EVIDENCE (statements)
“19-2515. SENTENCE IN CAPITAL CASES — SPECIAL SENTENCING PROCEEDING... “ ***
“….(5)(a)…. Information concerning the victim and the impact that the death of the victim has had on the victim’s family is relevant and admissible. Such information shall be designed to demonstrate the victim’s uniqueness as an individual human being and the resultant loss to the community by the victim’s death. Characterizations and opinions about the crime, the defendant and the appropriate sentence shall not be permitted as part of any victim impact information.”

jmo
Editted a bit for easier reading.
______________________________________
*https://www.ag.idaho.gov/content/uploads/2018/04/VictimsRights.pdf
** Section 19-5306 – Idaho State Legislature
*** Section 19-2515 – Idaho State Legislature

 

[AnyNameIWish]

What!?!?! The site demolition was all about moving forward and "healing as a community", but the memorial garden /site that they fundraiser for.... isn't even going to BE ON THE PROPERTY?

Ok. So excuse me if I'm shocked but I thought that was the whole point of this! The ol' bait and switch, is it?

 

[Chimera]

IMO I am saying the dog would have been barking frantically by that time

Whom it woke and how deeply there were asleep and if they are the sorts of people to sleep through barking, who knows. But at some point they did get up and that alone would have triggered the dog to distress call so how long was the poor thing barking and crying even more AFTER they got up and before LE got there? You'd have thought someone would have gone up to him to get him?

Ok, thanks for clarifying.
Still a lot we don't know.