4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #92

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  • #321
MOO SG isn't just looking for justice, he and his wife are laying groundwork to sue Moscow. That is why their actions don't quite make sense.
Any thought on what grounds they would have - or think they might have? We have become a litigious society, but I just can't come up with what injury they have suffered that Moscow would be directly responsible for or could have contributed to.
 
  • #322
IMO MOO OMO

These families are doing what families do, after unspeakable, heinous, vicious, horrendous, unforgivable, unthinkable, sickening, cruel murder is committed.

There is no becoming adversary. Families.
There is no one ( not lawyer, judge, Priest, bartender, hairdresser, friend or foe) to better speak for THE VICTIMS. Those who, " died at the hand of another," as legal-system so eloquently describes.

Monday morning quarterbacking and harsh commentary ( about a bereft family that is doing exactly the right thing) is something we all can do. But, shouldn't.

As always: support to the amazing team, and love to the families, friends, siblings, neighbors and all those who are so deeply effected.
Ok, first of all, I am not Monday morning quarterbacking anything. I feel deeply for all of the parents. But, as difficult as the situation is, prosecutors represent the state, not the victims families. I believe prosecutors usually seek input from victims' families, but they don't make their decisions based solely on what the families want. The simple truth is that families are often not in an emotional place to be accept information they do not want to hear. When SG said " I'M NOT HERE COMPROMISE ON MY DAUGHTER'S NAME. WE ARE GOING TO GO FOR THE ULTIMATE LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY. " he can certainly advocate for his preferred outcome all he wants, but it's legally the prosecution's decision to make.

EBM to correct a misspelling
 
  • #323
Ok, first of all, I am not Monday morning quarterbacking anything. I feel deeply for all of the parents. But, as difficult as the situation is, prosecutors represent the state, not the victims families. I believe prosecutors usually seek input from victims' families, but they don't make their decisions based solely on what the families want. The simple truth is that families are often not in an emotional place to be accept information they do not want to hear. When SG said " I'M NOT HERE COMPROMISE ON MY DAUGHTER'S NAME. WE ARE GOING TO GO FOR THE ULTIMATE LEVEL OF ACCOUNTABILITY. " he can certainly advocate for his preferred outcome all he wants, but it's legally the prosecution's decision to make.

EBM to correct a misspelling
IMO MOO JMO

Always enjoy reading your opinions MW, long term here.
But, it's a job for others, not those grieving, who now, have had their lives ruined. They are left here on earth, without their beloved family members.

No job / employment, can meet the criteria/desires / needs of a family. God knows our justice system ( while the absolute best) leaves so so so much that is unacceptable.

JMO.

Thanks to the Justice Team and law enforcement and all those who do these jobs.

" Somebody has to do it."
 
  • #324
IMO MOO JMO

Always enjoy reading your opinions MW, long term here.
But, it's a job for others, not those grieving, who now, have had their lives ruined. They are left here on earth, without their beloved family members.

No job / employment, can meet the criteria/desires / needs of a family. God knows our justice system ( while the absolute best) leaves so so so much that is unacceptable.

JMO.

Thanks to the Justice Team and law enforcement and all those who do these jobs.

" Somebody has to do it."
Yes indeed. I have so much respect for LE. Such a difficult job, and it often carries a heavy price for them as well.
 
  • #325
There's no downside whatsoever for the defense to push the delay, stall, delay tactic for as long as possible---Some defendants do it for years ( I believe we have a case here: Seminelli-sp)---- look at the one who shall go un-named: Our court system is so easily exploited I am surprised more defendants don't do it. Judges bend over backwards to insure the accused's rights ---so this won't bite them later on appeal. But while bending over backwards for the accused, the dead victim is often forgotten by the public and the families agonize as years go by while the defendant files motion after frivolous motion to insure a delay of years. IMO it is disgusting.
I think they took into consideration some families wanted the DP but could have been for the community. The DP takes too long to get through, Taylor's excuse anyway but doubt she would do it differently with or without. MO
 
  • #326
MOO SG isn't just looking for justice, he and his wife are laying groundwork to sue Moscow. That is why their actions don't quite make sense.
When you say 'sue Moscow,' do you mean the City of Moscow, the police department, the University, etc?
 
  • #327
IMO MOO OMO

These families are doing what families do, after unspeakable, heinous, vicious, horrendous, unforgivable, unthinkable, sickening, cruel murder is committed.

There is no becoming adversary. Families.
There is no one ( not lawyer, judge, Priest, bartender, hairdresser, friend or foe) to better speak for THE VICTIMS. Those who, " died at the hand of another," as legal-system so eloquently describes.

Monday morning quarterbacking and harsh commentary ( about a bereft family that is doing exactly the right thing) is something we all can do. But, shouldn't.

As always: support to the amazing team, and love to the families, friends, siblings, neighbors and all those who are so deeply effected.
WALK A MILE IN HIS MOCCASINS by Mary T. Lathrap in 1895 (following is just part of the poem)

Pray, don’t find fault with the man that limps,
Or stumbles along the road.
Unless you have worn the moccasins he wears,
Or stumbled beneath the same load.

There may be tears in his soles that hurt
Though hidden away from view.
The burden he bears placed on your back
May cause you to stumble and fall, too.

Don’t sneer at the man who is down today
Unless you have felt the same blow
That caused his fall or felt the shame
That only the fallen know.

You may be strong, but still the blows
That were his, unknown to you in the same way,
May cause you to stagger and fall, too.
 
  • #328
When you say 'sue Moscow,' do you mean the City of Moscow, the police department, the University, etc?

Two students’ families reserve right to sue Moscow, documents say​

May 23, 2023

Shanon Gray, an attorney representing the Goncalves and Mogen families told ABC News that documents filed with the city reserve the right to sue the city of Moscow.

“It’s a safeguard to protect the interests of the families, the victims and really the whole community because if something goes wrong, or was done improperly, then someone is held accountable for that,” Gray explained.

Notices were also filed reserving his clients’ right to sue the University of Idaho, Washington State University and the Idaho State Police.

The legal move isn’t meant to do anything “other than protect the interests of the families and the victims moving forward."

 
  • #329
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  • #330
Tort Claims Notices?
When you say 'sue Moscow,' do you mean the City of Moscow, the police department, the University, etc?
@Idaho transplant ((ETA: Oops, reading you post, I posted before seeing others responses. Oh well.))

Mr. Shanon Gray is the attorney representing two families.

Per May 23, 2023 article below,
Potential tort claimants = families of Kaylee and Madison.
Potential tort defendants =
- City of Moscow (? presumably re actions/inactions of city PD?)
- Washington State.
- Idaho State.

"The families of two of the victims... have filed notice reserving their right to sue the city of Moscow, according to documents filed with the city.
"The notices do not specify what kind of claim the families may make. They say that potential dollar figures for damages are “undetermined at this time.”

 
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  • #331
I really don't like the sounds of where this thing is headed-----making it seem like this defense team HOPES to outlaw IGG being used in murder cases in the future.

Do we really want that for our futures? Do we want to nullify one of the most efficient and successful ways to catch killers in cold cases from now on?

We wouldn't want the Golden State Killer to be arrested? Or any of the dozens of other serial killers that were identified through IGG?

Is it better for our future world if we outlaw the ability to identify killers/rapists from the killer's family tree data?

Does that killer have the 'right to privacy' to prevent us from identifying him through the sperm he left behind?
There are already challenges to IGG making their way through courts. Here's an example from the state next door. An opinion that basically says if you leave it behind at a crime scene its no longer yours (in ref to DNA) and any sample voluntarily uploaded to a genetic database is fair game.

New York just upheld something similar. This case deals with partial matches. Which IMO makes the IGG case against Kohlberger, presumably a full match, even stronger if this is the bar. of course this is state...and not federal. so keep that in mimd/

And some states are racing to pass legislation before the courts essentially legislate for them.

There are a lot more challenges out there if you look for them. It's just that the notoriety of this case makes it feel more serious.

I'm not sure if any of these cases have made the federal appeals leap yet. But Kohlbergers' case seems like it might be the perfect one for a future Supreme Court that's interested in settling this debate (I am obviously not a legal analyst or lawyer so that's all MOO)

I just don't see how they can ban IGG without banning genetic geneology all together.
 
  • #332
IMO a solution similar to this can help put the worms almost entirely back in the can and fix this -
  • create a brand new EMPTY national clearinghouse (very minority report'ish, i know).
  • populate it with all current LE and prison databases
  • create an electronic middle man service, turn it over to a FCC like 'independent organization'.
  • providers like ancestry and 23andme can opt in or not. require them to make it clear to all users.
  • users of those providers would also still need to opt in. yes. again. even if they had earlier.
  • all of their interactions with LE/national clearning house are processed, logged, collected in the middle man service and overseen by the independent organization
  • there are two ways a dna profile makes its way from a provider to the middle man service and on to the clearing house. 1) a user opts in via the provider and its make availalbe to the national clearnighouse via the middle man service 2) a warrant is served to the provider by LE and the profile is made accessible through the middle man service.
  • the middle man service would allow users to see exactly how/when/by who their data was accessed by.
  • the middle man service would allow people to withdraw consent for their profile to be used at any time. giving them ownership over their dna.
  • all LE interactions, unless existing LE/Prison generated profiles, would require warrants and/or logging (for people opted in) in the middle man service.
  • all connections and accessed profiles made inside of the national clearning house and middle man service would be captured for court records and the defense
  • people would need to be notified that their dna was and/or profile was access by LE at some point in the last X number of days. or unless LE specifically requests via a warrant/process for the notification to be delayed.
  • This gives users almost total ownership over their data and dna.

Yes, this reboots everything. And it would be up to the providers if they wanted to send out another opt-in email or in app notification. it's almost like a reverse do not call list.

of course this assumes that LE would stay out of the user side of ancestry sites if given a 1 stop shop clearninghouse. also this is a back of the napkin solution i just wrote on the fly. And this doesn't solve for Joe's 4th cousin submitting their dna and implicating him in a crime committed decades ago. Don't commit crimes?

but if really smart people put their heads together i think there's a solution to this. If Amazon's Ring could build a national surveillance service (MOO) for LE...we could pull this off.

MOO
 
  • #333
There are already challenges to IGG making their way through courts. Here's an example from the state next door. An opinion that basically says if you leave it behind at a crime scene its no longer yours (in ref to DNA) and any sample voluntarily uploaded to a genetic database is fair game.

New York just upheld something similar. This case deals with partial matches. Which IMO makes the IGG case against Kohlberger, presumably a full match, even stronger if this is the bar. of course this is state...and not federal. so keep that in mimd/

And some states are racing to pass legislation before the courts essentially legislate for them.

There are a lot more challenges out there if you look for them. It's just that the notoriety of this case makes it feel more serious.

I'm not sure if any of these cases have made the federal appeals leap yet. But Kohlbergers' case seems like it might be the perfect one for a future Supreme Court that's interested in settling this debate (I am obviously not a legal analyst or lawyer so that's all MOO)

I just don't see how they can ban IGG without banning genetic geneology all together.
This is really interesting. Thank you for sharing these articles. It makes me feel better about the possibility that using IGG will be upheld. It is such a useful tool.
 
  • #334
Tort Claims Notices?

@Idaho transplant ((ETA: Oops, reading you post, I posted before seeing others responses. Oh well.))

Mr. Shanon Gray is the attorney representing two families.

Per May 23, 2023 article below,
Potential tort claimants = families of Kaylee and Madison.
Potential tort defendants =
- City of Moscow (? presumably re actions/inactions of city PD?)
- Washington State.
- Idaho State.

"The families of two of the victims... have filed notice reserving their right to sue the city of Moscow, according to documents filed with the city.
"The notices do not specify what kind of claim the families may make. They say that potential dollar figures for damages are “undetermined at this time.”

Thank you for reminding me of that al66pine :).
 
  • #335
Edit-Apologizing now for rambling!
Regarding BF (which was not in any of the documents that I recall and I’ve read and re-read them many times) seeing a naked man (underwear only?) running outside her window…First, the visual of BK running nearly naked from the victims house plays like an episode from “Jackass” in my mind. Not being disrespectful to the victims. Sorry. Couldn’t resist!
Secondly, IMO, would a perp undress right outside of the victims’ home? I would think that may call a little attention to him-it’s a college town…there will be some traffic, foot or vehicle.
Thinking out loud here. Let’s say BK was wearing coveralls. To undress outside would mean he didn’t want to leave a trail. I’m coming to this-they found more than a “latent print”. I can’t fathom, in such a heinous murder as this, that there is no trace of DNA in that house or in BK vehicle. I know…we have to wait for the trial. I’m surprised nothing was leaked or stated about blood/DNA being found in the car. I will just sit with this…I know there has to be SOMETHING in that vehicle.
After committing 4 murders, adrenaline going crazy, wouldn’t nerves go through the roof-hence mistakes. Anyone want to elaborate on that? I don’t understand how you wouldn’t lose the ability to think clearly after committing such an act of violence. Can’t wait for justice for Kaylee, Maddie, Ethan and Xana.
^ VR UL'd: [focus]. ^

So thought I.
... then triggered to Norman Bates running up the hill from the office to check on Mother, sitting backlit at the window...
 
  • #336
Edit-Apologizing now for rambling!
Regarding BF (which was not in any of the documents that I recall and I’ve read and re-read them many times) seeing a naked man (underwear only?) running outside her window…First, the visual of BK running nearly naked from the victims house plays like an episode from “Jackass” in my mind. Not being disrespectful to the victims. Sorry. Couldn’t resist!
Secondly, IMO, would a perp undress right outside of the victims’ home? I would think that may call a little attention to him-it’s a college town…there will be some traffic, foot or vehicle.
Thinking out loud here. Let’s say BK was wearing coveralls. To undress outside would mean he didn’t want to leave a trail. I’m coming to this-they found more than a “latent print”. I can’t fathom, in such a heinous murder as this, that there is no trace of DNA in that house or in BK vehicle. I know…we have to wait for the trial. I’m surprised nothing was leaked or stated about blood/DNA being found in the car. I will just sit with this…I know there has to be SOMETHING in that vehicle.
After committing 4 murders, adrenaline going crazy, wouldn’t nerves go through the roof-hence mistakes. Anyone want to elaborate on that? I don’t understand how you wouldn’t lose the ability to think clearly after committing such an act of violence. Can’t wait for justice for Kaylee, Maddie, Ethan and Xana.
RBBM

To me, coveralls would imply that a person is wearing something underneath and the coveralls are protective. Idk about being naked underneath but I didn't see whatever happened. I do think tho that undressing right out front of the house would be risky and if BK dressed properly, he shouldn't have needed to strip down. JMO.

I also find it hard to believe there was no DNA in the car. I've always imagined he took his "kit" with him (minus the sheath) and stashed it in the car somewhere until he could dispose of it.

At the very least, I think his shoes and the drivers side area would be most likely to have some traces of DNA. Or at least some evidence of cleaning. (at first I imagined he used the trunk but no matter where he placed the evidence he'd have to clean it afterwards and the trunk would be risky, loud and too much time IMO).

In my mind, I've always imagined he wore something like this:
 
  • #337
I think if you find his clothes that early morning or his suit, that is where their DNA is.. but he successfully ditched/burned/burried/trashed the clothes and knife and they were never found.
 
  • #338
Edit-Apologizing now for rambling!
Regarding BF (which was not in any of the documents that I recall and I’ve read and re-read them many times) seeing a naked man (underwear only?) running outside her window…First, the visual of BK running nearly naked from the victims house plays like an episode from “Jackass” in my mind. Not being disrespectful to the victims. Sorry. Couldn’t resist!
Secondly, IMO, would a perp undress right outside of the victims’ home? I would think that may call a little attention to him-it’s a college town…there will be some traffic, foot or vehicle.
Thinking out loud here. Let’s say BK was wearing coveralls. To undress outside would mean he didn’t want to leave a trail. I’m coming to this-they found more than a “latent print”. I can’t fathom, in such a heinous murder as this, that there is no trace of DNA in that house or in BK vehicle. I know…we have to wait for the trial. I’m surprised nothing was leaked or stated about blood/DNA being found in the car. I will just sit with this…I know there has to be SOMETHING in that vehicle.
After committing 4 murders, adrenaline going crazy, wouldn’t nerves go through the roof-hence mistakes. Anyone want to elaborate on that? I don’t understand how you wouldn’t lose the ability to think clearly after committing such an act of violence. Can’t wait for justice for Kaylee, Maddie, Ethan and Xana.

Naked man is misinformation. "The English Mirror" said the naked man information came from the PCA and we know the PCA does not say this by any stretch of the imagination. Gloves keep prints and DNA from crime scenes yet still BK's DNA was found under a victim on a large knife sheath.

.
Logsdon says that investigators found the DNA from two men inside the house, and a third outside the residence on a glove.
None of this DNA matches that of Bryan Kohberger says Logsdon, noting that the DNA was never run through CODIS (Combined DNA Index System) in hopes of finding a direct match.

Kohberger and his lawyer filed this objection because they are seeking a detailed breakdown of how genetic genealogy was utilized to help the FBI initially identify Kohberger as a person of interest in the case.
The state is arguing that since DNA from a buccal swab provided by the suspect matched the DNA found on a knife sheath at the scene, the genetic genealogy results will play no role in the upcoming trial and are inconsequential to proving the suspect's guilt or innocence.


In response, Kohberger and his lawyers outline what they believe to be the perceived holes in the case, starting with the DNA.
The presence of DNA from other men at or near the crime scene could explain why it took six weeks to arrest Kohberger.
MOTION FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER REGARDING USE OF GENETIC GENEOLOGY TO IDENTIFY BRYAN KOHBERGER
"While this was ongoing, police were investigating many various possible suspects. Many of them provided DNA," Logsdon writes. "At least one had his DNA surreptitiously taken from discarded cigarette. Many also had their phones taken and downloaded."
The filing also claims that there is a "total lack of DNA evidence from the victims in Mr. Kohberger’s apartment, office, home, or vehicle."
Another piece of evidence that the defense believes is lacking is the identification of the suspect's car.


The probable cause affidavit references a "white sedan" but makes no mention of make or model. Logsdon says that there is only one sighting of a vehicle that is certainly a Hyundai Elantra.
Kohberger owned and drove a 2016 Elantra.
"Precisely how the police came to believe the car was an Elantra is still unknown," writes Logsdon. "A report from an analyst for the FBI dated March 21, 2023 shows the analyst heavily relying on video of car heading in the wrong direction and at the wrong time on Ridge Rd."
It is also seems that as Kohberger seeks to delay providing the defense with his alibi, prosecutors may similarly be stalling when it comes to providing the defense with a motive — if they have even determined one at this time. Lagsdon writes that as of his filing the objection, prosecutors have provided the defense with no evidence of a "connection between Mr. Kohberger and the victims."
There is one connection according to prosecutors, who claim in their motion for a protective order that the DNA on the knife sheath found near two of the victims is a direct match to Kohberger's DNA.
OBJECTION TO MOTION FOR PROTECTIVE ORDER REGARDING USE OF GENETIC GENEOLOGY TO IDENTIFY BRYAN KOHBERGER


In their initial motion seeking a protective order, prosecutors write about the discovery of the knife sheath containing a trace amount of DNA that they claim is a match to that of Kohberger.
"Law enforcement found a Ka-Bar knife sheath on the bed next to the bodies of Madison and Kaylee," the motion states. "The sheath was face down and partially under both Madison’s body and the comforter on the bed."
The objection filed by Logsdon argues that the entire case is built upon this genetic genealogy that led the FBI to identify Kohberger as a suspect, and claims that withholding this information is akin to hiding the root of the murder investigation.
Logsdon writes about his client: "A massive investigation came to focus on him and him alone. The State appears to be trying to hide its original domino such that he cannot discover why. Mr. Kohberger has right to discover and question the investigation that led to him."
The case has received national attention ever since the bodies of four University of Idaho students were found dead in a house just off the school’s Moscow campus in November.
Interest in the case only grew during the six weeks it took police to finally make an arrest.


Kohberger was eventually apprehended in the early morning hours of Dec. 30 at his childhood home in Pennsylvania.
A probable cause affidavit said that his arrest came just days after investigators matched DNA found in trash pulled from Kohberger’s home to DNA found on a knife sheath discovered at the murder scene, utilizing genetic genealogy.
Once in custody, Kohberger provided a buccal swab that proved to be a direct match to the DNA on that sheath.
Authorities have yet to find the weapon that killed those students: Madison Mogen, 21; Kaylee Goncalves, 21; Xana Kernodle, 20; and Ethan Chapin, 20.
Kohberger had previously told the public defender assigned to handle his extradition from Pennsylvania to Idaho that he expects to be exonerated of all charges at trial.
The judge has yet to rule on the state's motion for a protective order, and all involved in the investigation and trial are unable to comment due to a strict and sweeping nondissemination order that continues to be in effect.
 
  • #339
It's so frustrating that they just conveniently ignore the officer from WSU who identified his car. I guess they do this because it doesn't fit the defense's narrative.
 
  • #340

Two students’ families reserve right to sue Moscow, documents say​

May 23, 2023

Shanon Gray, an attorney representing the Goncalves and Mogen families told ABC News that documents filed with the city reserve the right to sue the city of Moscow.

“It’s a safeguard to protect the interests of the families, the victims and really the whole community because if something goes wrong, or was done improperly, then someone is held accountable for that,” Gray explained.

Notices were also filed reserving his clients’ right to sue the University of Idaho, Washington State University and the Idaho State Police.

The legal move isn’t meant to do anything “other than protect the interests of the families and the victims moving forward."


This is the sort of thing that makes me mad.

All humans are flawed and make errors. All institutions make mistakes.

Suing someone or some entity because a mistake is made just seems so misplaced.
 
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