4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #92

[Cool Cats]

I think it’s possible an everyday person could confuse a death certificate with an autopsy

There is a huge difference between a one page certificate and a multiple page report. The Death Certificate is just that, a certificate like a Birth Certificate, and an autopsy report is an actual detailed report.

It is possible that the Death Certificate was descriptive like this for example:

• Cause of death - stabbing with large fixed blade knife, deep tears on multiple soft tissue areas etc....

But I do not think there is any way to confuse them.

Autopsies are normally multiple pages and would have a diagram of the wounds and list height, weight, body nourishment, physical description of organs etc... It would say that this report comes from the Office of the Medical Examiner and the ME's name is listed. Also, usually the last page gives a toxicology report.

2 Cents

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I have read many many death certificates both following crime and being the family historian. They are notoriously brief and dry. I can think of a lot of distressing descriptors too, but I can't imagine any professional using them. Especially in such a brutal case, knowing the families will see it. MOOooo

I understand. This is why I used the qualifier "appropriately".

I'm thinking of terms such as

Spoiler

decapitation, dismemberment, or exsanguination

.

Again, not suggesting that any one of these actually happened, just acknowledging that there are medical terms that might appropriately appear on a DC which evoke more horrific images in our minds than other terms, and that a word such as one of these might have been used for KG but not for MM or the others.

MOO

 

[Cindizzi]

Taking a break from the Daybell trial today and found a bright spot of sunshine to cheer us all up:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1779906947132850218

 

[SpiderFalcon]

As I recall, SG was given permission to receive both Kaylee and Maddie's death certificates. And I believe I remember the Coroner spoke with him about both Kaylee and Maddie's autopsy results. And the Coroner in this case is NOT A MEDICAL DOCTOR. Since we don't have access to the autopsy reports, we have no way of knowing if the same examiner did both, or if the autopsies on Kaylee and Maddie were completed by different examiners. One example of a case where cause of death was stabbing is Darlie Routier. Joni McClain completed Devon's autopsy, Janis Townsend-Parchman completed Damon's autopsy. The different writing styles, and word usage was evident. Possibly, that's the case in Kaylee and Maddie's autopsies. I think we have to wait to see how different those wounds were, how much they didn't match.

 

[NCWatcher]

As I recall, SG was given permission to receive both Kaylee and Maddie's death certificates. And I believe I remember the Coroner spoke with him about both Kaylee and Maddie's autopsy results. And the Coroner in this case is NOT A MEDICAL DOCTOR. Since we don't have access to the autopsy reports, we have no way of knowing if the same examiner did both, or if the autopsies on Kaylee and Maddie were completed by different examiners. One example of a case where cause of death was stabbing is Darlie Routier. Joni McClain completed Devon's autopsy, Janis Townsend-Parchman completed Damon's autopsy. The different writing styles, and word usage was evident. Possibly, that's the case in Kaylee and Maddie's autopsies. I think we have to wait to see how different those wounds were, how much they didn't match.

Excellent point about not knowing who completed the autopsies. It's possible different people could have done the autopsies & used different terms for similar findings. And it's possible those differences in the autopsy reports could have made their way into the death certificates (although I still think death certificates are usually pretty "dry" and use standard terminology.)

I don't remember ever reading that KG's father was "given permission" to receive MM's death certificate. Normally that permission would have to come from her parents, I'd think. Claiming MM "was like a sister to KG" shouldn't have been enough to sway the keepers of official records to give him MM's certificate. Of course, the families could share whatever information they wished to share amongst themselves. Still, it's odd KG's parents seem to claim various things came from their daughter's death certificate that typically wouldn't appear in a death certificate. It could be bad reporting but they've apparently said that to various reporters. I've never seen them say anything remotely like "the difference in the wounds each woman suffered was clear when looking at the two autopsy reports" (or even the two death certificates)

I don't remember reading the coroner discussed MM's autopsy with KG's parents. But given what I did read about the coroner's actions, I guess I wouldn't be surprised if she did that too. I don't think the issue in that particular regard is that she's not a physician (although that raises other issues), rather it's that she blabbed normally confidential information, potentially damaged the investigation, and was totally unprofessional! It was horrifying. And kind of ironic-- some family members (like KG's) were very vocal about "authorities" not giving them information. But when they were given information, it seems at least some of the time, it was so wrong for the information to be shared. I'm not blaming the families for seeking information but the coroner was so wrong in so many ways if even half the reports of her actions are true.
MOO

 

[Swansee]

In the initial months, the G's were very unimpressed with how they perceived the investigation was going. Steve and Alivea in particular, were vocal about looking at everything they could learn by themselves and not just sitting back and waiting for LE to investigate. Alivea was looking through social media, talking to students and even getting footage from neighbors' security cameras. Steve was in contact with a private investigator, and personally interrogated those he suspected. They went above and beyond to try and understand what happened and who did it.
The G's probably were recipients not just to Kaylee's info, but probably to anything regarding Maddie too. They considered them both as "our girls". The G's literally have MM's ashes, so it is no stretch at all to think they'd be able to get relevant info about her too. I can't imagine the Kernodles denying them documents if they asked for them, and IMO they probably did. Only the Chapins, perhaps, were in a different bubble.
The coroner was leaking to anyone who wanted to hear, I agree with @NCWatcher that info may have come from her. Probably, some empathetic LE told the grieving and persistent G's at least some of what they knew. Perhaps also the PI helped get even more info.
In the course of all that, the G's were probably fed some bad info. Still, I have no doubt they learned more facts than any of us, and when they describe the injuries, the look on their faces tells me they've seen more than just a nondescript DC. Keep in mind that they may not be using the exact right terms: these are people who frequently confuse "indicted" with "convicted", and are clearly not very familiar with judicial jargon.
I understand the G's rubbed some people the wrong way with some of their comments. In spite of that, I still find it admirable to see a family willing to fight this hard for their loved ones.
All my opinion only, of course.

 

[maskedwoman]

I understand. This is why I used the qualifier "appropriately".

I'm thinking of terms such as

Spoiler

decapitation, dismemberment, or exsanguination

.

Again, not suggesting that any one of these actually happened, just acknowledging that there are medical terms that might appropriately appear on a DC which evoke more horrific images in our minds than other terms, and that a word such as one of these might have been used for KG but not for MM or the others.

MOO

A term like decapitation, or exsanguination might be used if that was truly the primary cause of death, but I saw a post from someone else that suggested "large fixed blade knife" and "deep tears to soft tissue". I believe that would be strictly autopsy report material. It's important to remember the purpose for a DC. It's to document a death only, for all the various purposes that needs to be done. Life insurance, social security, banks, retirement plans, etc. People young and old, from many walks of life, will see this document. Even children from the immediate family. I just can't see anyone including language that anyone might find distressing - especially the family who will have to present the document repeatedly.

I have relatives that have died from heart attack, cancer, being shot, stabbed, burned by a kitchen fire, hit by car, and drowned, to name a few. And those are the terms used on the DC. The doctors did list the type of cancer, but the DC for the person who was shot didn't even say where they were shot. It just said gunshot wound. The person who died due to a kitchen fire lived for two awful weeks after the initial burns, but the DC simply said burned in kitchen fire.

 

[Sundog]

A term like decapitation, or exsanguination might be used if that was truly the primary cause of death, but I saw a post from someone else that suggested "large fixed blade knife" and "deep tears to soft tissue". I believe that would be strictly autopsy report material. It's important to remember the purpose for a DC. It's to document a death only, for all the various purposes that needs to be done. Life insurance, social security, banks, retirement plans, etc. People young and old, from many walks of life, will see this document. Even children from the immediate family. I just can't see anyone including language that anyone might find distressing - especially the family who will have to present the document repeatedly.

I have relatives that have died from heart attack, cancer, being shot, stabbed, burned by a kitchen fire, hit by car, and drowned, to name a few. And those are the terms used on the DC. The doctors did list the type of cancer, but the DC for the person who was shot didn't even say where they were shot. It just said gunshot wound. The person who died due to a kitchen fire lived for two awful weeks after the initial burns, but the DC simply said burned in kitchen fire.

I served as executor of a family member's estate and agree that the death certificate that I received in order to close out bank accounts, car registration, etc. did not disclose details of the death, only the pertinent details like date, etc.

But in another situation, many years ago I received a document following the death of a family member who died in an accident that included details that were quite difficult to read. It wasn't a typical death certificate nor full autopsy report, but something else - like a summary of the injuries and the cause of death. It arrived in the mail from the coroner's office, sent to me as I was listed as next of kin. It was about 30 years ago.

 

[maskedwoman]

I understand. This is why I used the qualifier "appropriately".

I'm thinking of terms such as

Spoiler

decapitation, dismemberment, or exsanguination

.

Again, not suggesting that any one of these actually happened, just acknowledging that there are medical terms that might appropriately appear on a DC which evoke more horrific images in our minds than other terms, and that a word such as one of these might have been used for KG but not for MM or the others.

MOO

That's fair.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/blue_form.pdf

I found this link to the CDC's directions for filling out a DC to be very educational. It appears that exsanguination might certainly be used, but things suggested in other posts, like "large fixed blade knife" and "deep tears to soft tissue" seem unlikely.

I think it's important to remember the purpose for a DC. It's to document a death, for all the various reasons that needs to be done. Tracking diseases, statistical work, life insurance, social security, banks, retirement plans, etc. On DCs completed In the "olden days" I've seen more blunt or "colorful" descriptions. Shot, burned in kitchen fire, etc. Today, the terminology seems much more clinical and restrained.

 

[maskedwoman]

I served as executor of a family member's estate and agree that the death certificate that I received in order to close out bank accounts, car registration, etc. did not disclose details of the death, only the pertinent details like date, etc.

But in another situation, many years ago I received a document following the death of a family member who died in an accident that included details that were quite difficult to read. It wasn't a typical death certificate nor full autopsy report, but something else - like a summary of the injuries and the cause of death. It arrived in the mail from the coroner's office, sent to me as I was listed as next of kin. It was about 30 years ago.

That sounds ghastly. I certainly hope they didn't receive something like that.

 

[NCWatcher]

That sounds ghastly. I certainly hope they didn't receive something like that.

I doubt they received a document like that but it sounds like the coroner told KG's parents lots of stuff and told their teenage daughter graphic details.

Idaho murders coroner told victim’s teen sister horror death details, mother says

Kristi Goncalves said her teenage daughter was told of graphic details about her 21-year-old sister’s death

www.the-independent.com

MOO

 

[Balthazar]

Mr. G said he read the autopsy:
"Steve Goncalves: We know the autopsy. We know the means of what is officially how she died. … she was assaulted and stabbed.

Kristi Goncalves: Several, several times … her death certificate is the ugliest, disgusting-est piece of paper that you will ever see in your life.

Peter Van Sant: And every line is a horror show.

Kristi Goncalves: Every line because there's causes of death and then there's contributions to death."

Mother of Idaho murders victim Kaylee Goncalves says evidence shows she was "trapped"

Family of victim shares new details of their own investigation into what happened the night of the November 2022 murders of four University of Idaho college students and the case against suspect Bryan Kohberger.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[sunspun]

They must be calling the autopsy report the death certificate... right?

 

[Cool Cats]

They must be calling the autopsy report the death certificate... right?

No.

Death Certificate lists contributing factors and they viewed autopsy report.

Peter Van Sant: How did your — your daughter die in that house? What do you know?

Steve Goncalves: We know the autopsy. We know the means of what is officially how she died. … she was assaulted and stabbed.

Kristi Goncalves: Several, several times … her death certificate is the ugliest, disgusting-est piece of paper that you will ever see in your life.

Peter Van Sant: And every line is a horror show.

Kristi Goncalves: Every line because there's causes of death and then there's contributions to death.

Mother of Idaho murders victim Kaylee Goncalves says evidence shows she was "trapped"

Family of victim shares new details of their own investigation into what happened the night of the November 2022 murders of four University of Idaho college students and the case against suspect Bryan Kohberger.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[NCWatcher]

Mr. G said he read the autopsy:
"Steve Goncalves: We know the autopsy. We know the means of what is officially how she died. … she was assaulted and stabbed.

Kristi Goncalves: Several, several times … her death certificate is the ugliest, disgusting-est piece of paper that you will ever see in your life.

Peter Van Sant: And every line is a horror show.

Kristi Goncalves: Every line because there's causes of death and then there's contributions to death."

Mother of Idaho murders victim Kaylee Goncalves says evidence shows she was "trapped"

Family of victim shares new details of their own investigation into what happened the night of the November 2022 murders of four University of Idaho college students and the case against suspect Bryan Kohberger.

www.cbsnews.com

He may have read the autopsy but he doesn't actually say that. From the above link,

Peter Van Sant: How did your — your daughter die in that house? What do you know?

Steve Goncalves: We know the autopsy. We know the means of what is officially how she died. … she was assaulted and stabbed.

"Knowing" and "reading" may not be the same thing. It's possible to know things without reading them yourself.

KG's mother calls the death certificate "a piece of paper" which it is, just like a birth certificate is one page. An autopsy is not one page. And every line of a death certificate isn't a "horror show" as the certificate contains date of birth, full name of the deceased ..So I don't think they have confused the two documents.
MOO

 

[al66pine]

Today's Daily Mail $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

"Bryan Kohberger's murder case cost rockets to $3.6 MILLION as taxpayer picks up huge bill for his stalled trial - 469 days after he was arrested for quadruple murder"
....
"Taylor, who bills at $200 an hour, was joined by her chief deputy Jay Logsdon, paid $180 and hour, and mitigation expert Elisa Massoth at $180 an hour. How much time they all spend on the case is unknown."

"Latah County budget records only indicate a total amount spent so far: $1.4 million.

"Costs for the prosecution are believed to be about the same as the defense so far, enough though most prosecutors bill at $50 to 57 an hour, as there are many more costs involved.

"... in the Latah County Jail,... which costs far more than prisons for convicted inmates.
"Every day he spends there costs $194, adding up to about $91,000 so far, compared to other jails that average $87.50 a day.

"The university was also slugged with a massive $1.6 million bill, of which the State of Idaho paid it back about $1 million.
"This includes about $346,000 to secure and later demolish the house on King Road where the four students were stabbed to death."

"About $1.4 million of the total was spent on beefing up security around campus, both temporarily in the weeks that followed the murders, and long term."

Bryan Kohberger's murder case cost rockets to $3.6 MILLION
(sbm)
______________________________
Q: DM's source of info

- re def atty "billing."
IIUC for AT, that's a $ fig from P.Def ofc.

- re "most prosecutors bill at $50 to 57"/hr. Huh, what?
Did DM pull $ amt of (asst) prosecutors' salaries, then convert to $ /hr? Either from atty.-employee in Latah County or the St. AG's employees ~ on loan to Latah Co?

Regardless, not just chicken feed.

 

[Cool Cats]

Today's Daily Mail $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

"Bryan Kohberger's murder case cost rockets to $3.6 MILLION as taxpayer picks up huge bill for his stalled trial - 469 days after he was arrested for quadruple murder"
....
"Taylor, who bills at $200 an hour, was joined by her chief deputy Jay Logsdon, paid $180 and hour, and mitigation expert Elisa Massoth at $180 an hour. How much time they all spend on the case is unknown."

"Latah County budget records only indicate a total amount spent so far: $1.4 million.

"Costs for the prosecution are believed to be about the same as the defense so far, enough though most prosecutors bill at $50 to 57 an hour, as there are many more costs involved.

"... in the Latah County Jail,... which costs far more than prisons for convicted inmates.
"Every day he spends there costs $194, adding up to about $91,000 so far, compared to other jails that average $87.50 a day.

"The university was also slugged with a massive $1.6 million bill, of which the State of Idaho paid it back about $1 million.
"This includes about $346,000 to secure and later demolish the house on King Road where the four students were stabbed to death."

"About $1.4 million of the total was spent on beefing up security around campus, both temporarily in the weeks that followed the murders, and long term."

Bryan Kohberger's murder case cost rockets to $3.6 MILLION
(sbm)
______________________________
Q: DM's source of info

- re def atty "billing."
IIUC for AT, that's a $ fig from P.Def ofc.

- re "most prosecutors bill at $50 to 57"/hr. Huh, what?
Did DM pull $ amt of (asst) prosecutors' salaries, then convert to $ /hr? Either from atty.-employee in Latah County or the St. AG's employees ~ on loan to Latah Co?

Regardless, not just chicken feed.

Legal fees are $1.4 million for defense.....not 4 million. However, 1.4 million is bad spending when there hasn't even been a trial yet. ..... 2 Centz

 

[MissyRie]

Hi. Is there not a hearing today?

 

[twall]

Hi. Is there not a hearing today?

No hearing today, next month. Today is the deadline for the alibi though.

Kohberger must submit concrete alibi details by Wednesday

If Kohberger does not provide a more concrete alibi by Wednesday, the defense will not be able to use the alleged alibi as a defense during the trial.

www.krem.com

 

[MissyRie]

No hearing today, next month. Today is the deadline for the alibi though.

Kohberger must submit concrete alibi details by Wednesday

If Kohberger does not provide a more concrete alibi by Wednesday, the defense will not be able to use the alleged alibi as a defense during the trial.

www.krem.com

Thank you. Did we get one?