4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #96

[sunshineray]

It seems clear that the IGG was done at the end of November, and that LE was already onto him when he was pulled over twice during the cross country drive in mid December. However, as the court documents show, at the time, the digital/phone records hadn't come back.
LE were quick to dismiss the white Elantra with no front plates that was found in Oregon on the weekend of December 17-18, even though at the time, the warrants for the digital/phone data hadn't come back.
It seems to me the Kohberger ID was based on the IGG but they didn't want to say so due to the legal issues this could cause. So they had to wait for the warrants to do the CAST stuff and paternity testing his father's trash etc, and only arrest him in late December to minimize the fact that IGG was not "just a tip", but the whole reason they ID'd him. As soon as the paternity test results came in, they got the arrest warrant.
Was there a violation of his rights and is there grounds for a Franks motion to succeed? I don't know, IANAL. But what I do know is that the victims' families are going to go berzerk if the State's case falls apart over this.
All MOO.

So LE is saying he was pulled over those two times, in Indiana (wasn't it?) because of the alert out on a white Elantra? I was under the impression both stops were traffic related, following two close? Did an alert go out nationally for that white Elantra?

 

[Swansee]

No, an alert did not need to go out nationally for "a white Elantra" since they already knew his was the exact one they were looking for. They can follow via plate ID cams such as the one in Loma, Colorado mentioned in the PCA. Supposedly, the traffic stops were unrelated... Not sure I believe that, but it doesn't matter.
The latest batch of Court documents hint at the fact that at some point in mid-December, something happened with a federal grand jury. All the good stuff is under seal, so it's hard to tell what exactly transpired but clearly, the FBI had no doubt who their suspect was by mid December, weeks before the Idaho investigators' warrants were returned.

 

[sunshineray]

No, an alert did not need to go out nationally for "a white Elantra" since they already knew his was the exact one they were looking for. They can follow via plate ID cams such as the one in Loma, Colorado mentioned in the PCA. Supposedly, the traffic stops were unrelated... Not sure I believe that, but it doesn't matter.
The latest batch of Court documents hint at the fact that at some point in mid-December, something happened with a federal grand jury. All the good stuff is under seal, so it's hard to tell what exactly transpired but clearly, the FBI had no doubt who their suspect was by mid December, weeks before the Idaho investigators' warrants were returned.

Thank you Swansee!
It had to be a federal grand jury because of the traveling interstate, two states being involved, extradition and all that?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

RSBM
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that BK was planning to kill his "suspicious sister". IIRC, she was the one who instigated the family search of his car, and he may have known/discovered that. It's hard to hide your feelings when you are suspicious of someone, and although BK may be weird, he's no dummy. If the sister did in fact contact LE, they certainly may have had reason to fear for her.

Good point!

 

[katydid23]

I don't find it hard to believe BK had some form of aggression/violence in his past. Most prior bad acts are not allowed in a current trial, although there are a few exceptions where they can be brought in.

BK had at least two previous unusual altercations involving young women. One was in HS when he forced to move to a different vocational course because of a female student's complaint, and one where he was involved with installing a video cam for a female friend who then had concerns of security.
Bryan Kohberger booted from police program after complaints from classmates: admin.

There was also the students in his TA class at WSU that complained about him, and he had ongoing problems with the Professor. which we now know he was ultimately terminated from and told about on December 19, 2022.
https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime...bryan-kohbergers-termination-letter-from-wsu/

I think it would be fair to say the BK had a major problem interacting and respecting the personal boundaries of females in particular, although we've heard from male classmates that he could be abrasive and bullying to them as well.
Bryan Kohberger's high school friends say the accused killer was overweight and bullied

That video where the female officer pulled BK over at WSU for making a left turn on a crosswalk? He COULD NOT stop talking or stating his position. It was an overreaction to something minor, but he just could not let it go.
Bodycam footage shows Bryan Kohberger pulled over by police a month before Idaho student murders

JMO

Yes, and there was also a local bar that he had gone to several times, In PA, and IIRC, the manager of the bar had to tell him to stop being so intrusive with the female servers. Apparently they thought he was being creepy and aggressive?

 

[katydid23]

He would blend in with a crowd just fine--we see him as a potential killer- and we look at his features with that as a back drop-- I have no doubt if he was part of a group of people who were in that house- he would be just like anybody else-- blending in. so he has sharp features- lots of people do.

And he is very familiar with local college kids, so he'd know what to wear to blend in. And if he walked in with a bottle of tequila or a 12 pack of beer, he'd be welcomed in, no problem.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

So LE is saying he was pulled over those two times, in Indiana (wasn't it?) because of the alert out on a white Elantra? I was under the impression both stops were traffic related, following two close? Did an alert go out nationally for that white Elantra?

To my mind he was being tracked and traced - certainly 'following too close' seems like a very weak reason to pull someone over. I don't live in the USA and I guess it also differs from state to state but is that a usual reason to flag someone over and verbally caution them?

I'd imagine LE had him on NPR and also maybe even bugging the vehicle / phones. I feel suspicious that LE somewhat worked this case backwards and had BK in their sights before they officially stated. I wonder how many people phoned in and tipped off, mentioning his name.

I also still wonder to what extent his criminal psychology peers, colleagues, and tutors had already identified he had the personality traits of a dominant violent predator with zero empathy? After all they were studying the subject matter in depth and had even group confronted him. They were 'on to' him and the next thing there's this horrific violent attack and a white car being mentioned. Would his peers and superiors have known he drove a white car? I think it's highly possible. Some people knew about his night running habit. At a time when everyone was in shock and horror with their minds running overdrive, in all reality, how many people raised his name in confidence to LE?

 

[ilovewings]

And he is very familiar with local college kids, so he'd know what to wear to blend in. And if he walked in with a bottle of tequila or a 12 pack of beer, he'd be welcomed in, no problem.

Exactly

 

[girlhasnoname]

Yes, and there was also a local bar that he had gone to several times, In PA, and IIRC, the manager of the bar had to tell him to stop being so intrusive with the female servers. Apparently they thought he was being creepy and aggressive?

Yes a one off can happen to anybody, but if there is a consistent pattern that person has a legitimate problem = BK. IMO

 

[Justice101]

To my mind he was being tracked and traced - certainly 'following too close' seems like a very weak reason to pull someone over. I don't live in the USA and I guess it also differs from state to state but is that a usual reason to flag someone over and verbally caution them?

I'd imagine LE had him on NPR and also maybe even bugging the vehicle / phones. I feel suspicious that LE somewhat worked this case backwards and had BK in their sights before they officially stated. I wonder how many people phoned in and tipped off, mentioning his name.

I also still wonder to what extent his criminal psychology peers, colleagues, and tutors had already identified he had the personality traits of a dominant violent predator with zero empathy? After all they were studying the subject matter in depth and had even group confronted him. They were 'on to' him and the next thing there's this horrific violent attack and a white car being mentioned. Would his peers and superiors have known he drove a white car? I think it's highly possible. Some people knew about his night running habit. At a time when everyone was in shock and horror with their minds running overdrive, in all reality, how many people raised his name in confidence to LE?

I'm a US resident and pulling someone over for following too close is very very rare.

Although the FBI will probably not admit to what they do, BK's Elantra being pulled over twice to me means they were surveilling him on his cross-country trip to Pennsylvania. The officer had to make up some infraction to make it seem legit.

 

[Megnut]

I'm a US resident and pulling someone over for following too close is very very rare.

Although the FBI will probably not admit to what they do, BK's Elantra being pulled over twice to me means they were surveilling him on his cross-country trip to Pennsylvania. The officer had to make up some infraction to make it seem legit.

And IMO the one officer didn't know the other already had.

JMO

 

[Boxer]

Snipped by me--but not HIS dna. He didn't voluntarily submit his dna to the test pool. But through genetic genealogy they have it anyway. If you have a relative's dna, through IGG you essentially have his dna--without his permission, without him entering it into a commercial database, without it being entered legally into CODIS, without it being left on a discarded cigarette butt, etc.--all these other ways that have already been court-tested and/or legislated.

The courts are going to have to decide if, given the current technology available through IGG, and, given the fact that he left his dna at the crime scene (confirmed by the match of the dna on the sheath to BK) did BK have a reasonable expectation of privacy. We knew this was coming.

DNA at a crime scene.

Then seems to lead to anything left at a crime scene becomes an item of unreasonable search.

Since the database in question is made of solely "opt in" peoples DNA, is their DNA not their own? Does everyone they are related to have rights over their replicated DNA snippets carried within their cells?

Leading to your DNA not being your own property.

And on a normal size scale, if say a wallet was left behind by the killer with ID, would the police have to take it to the lost and found beause other people with the same last name could be tracked down by it?

 

[Boxer]

I'm a US resident and pulling someone over for following too close is very very rare.

Although the FBI will probably not admit to what they do, BK's Elantra being pulled over twice to me means they were surveilling him on his cross-country trip to Pennsylvania. The officer had to make up some infraction to make it seem legit.

MOO it was independent unwise action by the Indiana ISP and CO sheriff.
MOO IN LE was made aware BK was travelling through and they wanted to see him.
The two IN LE agencies didn't communicate because their actions were a bit rogue so they ended up with two stops, MOO prompting BK to even more car cleaning in PA.

 

[Deleted member 296739]

DNA at a crime scene.

Then seems to lead to anything left at a crime scene becomes an item of unreasonable search.

Since the database in question is made of solely "opt in" peoples DNA, is their DNA not their own - does everyone they are related to have rights over their replicated DNA snippets carried within their relativea cells?

Leading to your DNA inot being your own property.

And on a normal size scale, if say a wallet was left behind by the killer with ID, would the police have to take it to the lost and found beause other people with the same last name could be tracked down by it?

And to follow the wallet example, regular genealogy is used to find someone, what is only a library or membership card was dropped or something with a last name imprinted… last name along with birth/death/marriage certificates and all available public records and databases can be utilized to try and track down leads…

They had reason to suspect BK prior to DNA it seems… and if the relative’s DNA was entered into the database voluntarily, and TOS were followed I’m having trouble understanding the argument

But I suppose by going to the 4th amendment directly and if things resolve in favor of LE then this could set case precedent to aid other investigations… but if it somehow gets tossed … what a mess … moo

 

[Boxer]

Defense attorneys at some point of specious argument a defense attorney must become a defacto accessory after the fact.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Snipped by me--but not HIS dna. He didn't voluntarily submit his dna to the test pool. But through genetic genealogy they have it anyway. If you have a relative's dna, through IGG you essentially have his dna--without his permission, without him entering it into a commercial database, without it being entered legally into CODIS, without it being left on a discarded cigarette butt, etc.--all these other ways that have already been court-tested and/or legislated.

The courts are going to have to decide if, given the current technology available through IGG, and, given the fact that he left his dna at the crime scene (confirmed by the match of the dna on the sheath to BK) did BK have a reasonable expectation of privacy. We knew this was coming.

Agreed, we did know it was coming and I feel like there definitely should be more legislation and guidelines around the use of GGI, Phenotyping, AI, and LE's legal role in all of this. Can you imagine what technology might be available in another 5 years?

BK has no expectation of privacy for the DNA found on the knife sheath at a CS. Someone along the way: sister, brother, mother, father, distant cousin, aunt, uncle uploaded their DNA, who knows when, into a genetic data base.

The FBI was able to drill down from the sample DNA recovered legally at the crime scene and concluded that it would ultimately belong to someone with the surname Kohberger. Again, K DNA was obtained legally by gaining access to the K's garbage left out for pickup which matched Pop K and indicated it would be a male child of his.

It was a tip for LE, who already had BK on their radar IMO due to his car, DMV photo confirmed by DM, CAST information, video surveillance and who knows what else. I feel confident in the State's case against BK without the GGI.

Once arrested and a buccal swab taken, it was a single source STR match 5+ Octillion times likely belonging to BK. That's a lock.

I'm curious why BK's parents were subpoenaed to testify at a PA GJ and those results then shared with ID, that's unusual and they tried unsuccessfully to have it quashed. I also wonder if Pop K had planned on flying out and driving home with BK all along or if BK called him after the murders and during his termination process as a TA position? Did BK dispose of 'garbage' along his route home? I don't believe BK ever intended to go back to WSU, too risky.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/24/us/idaho-kohberger-parents-subpoena/index.html#

JMO

 

[schooling]

Information about the client's locations taken from his phone must also be excised due to being gathered from an invalid warrant.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/2024/111424-Motion-Supress-Memorandum-Support-White-Hyundai.pdf

I won’t belabor the point too much here for the 10000th time. But search through my history if you want to read about my speculation on this going back 2 years.

Our phones are able to make navigation and food suggestions because of something called “Frequent Location” (can’t remember what Google’s Android calls it). Most people don’t know it exists and are shocked to see their entire lives and movement documented there with pin point GPS accuracy down to feet with time and date attached. MOO

Apple has done some work to obfuscate the granular data because of stalking concerns. But the underlying data is still there for those with the right access to a phone. MOO

I speculated that BK was unaware of its existence. I also believe that he was probably unaware that airplane mode doesn’t necessarily turn off GPS nor does turning off your phone. You have to explicitly turn it off. Providers and manufacturers keep it on because GPS doesn’t rely on cellular infrastructure. It’s the reason your 30 year old Garmin navigation device (with no cellular or WiFi) will work to this day assuming your maps are still relevant. MOO.

And yes, the on phone GPS data is completely separate from the tower and triangulation data. MOO

All MOO, I am not an expert nor do I claim to be.

Side note: I ended up belaboring the point

 

[Deleted member 296739]

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/2024/111424-Motion-Supress-Memorandum-Support-White-Hyundai.pdf

I won’t belabor the point too much here for the 10000th time. But search through my history if you want to read about my speculation on this going back 2 years.

Our phones are able to make navigation and food suggestions because of something called “Frequent Location” (can’t remember what Google’s Android calls it). Most people don’t know it exists and are shocked to see their entire lives and movement documented there with pin point GPS accuracy down to feet with time and date attached. MOO

Apple has done some work to obfuscate the granular data because of stalking concerns. But the underlying data is still there for those with the right access to a phone. MOO

I speculated that BK was unaware of its existence. I also believe that he was probably unaware that airplane mode doesn’t necessarily turn off GPS nor does turning off your phone. You have to explicitly turn it off. Providers and manufacturers keep it on because GPS doesn’t rely on cellular infrastructure. It’s the reason your 30 year old Garmin navigation device (with no cellular or WiFi) will work to this day assuming your maps are still relevant. MOO.

And yes, the on phone GPS data is completely separate from the tower and triangulation data. MOO

All MOO, I am not an expert nor do I claim to be.

Side note: I ended up belaboring the point

And to piggy back on this, my phone now gives a warning under the power off button that explicitly states (phone findable when powered off)

This is a newer notification, while not a totally new feature… GPS satellites are different from cellular data/towers … moo, no expert

 

[acutename]

Defense attorneys at some point of specious argument a defense attorney must become a defacto accessory after the fact.

see rules 1.3 and 3.1....gotta vigorously defend the client but not lie.

https://isb.idaho.gov/wp-content/uploads/irpc.pdf

(google seems to only have a 2014 version of the rules.... not sure if there are missing updates)

 

[windrower]

I'm a US resident and pulling someone over for following too close is very very rare.

Although the FBI will probably not admit to what they do, BK's Elantra being pulled over twice to me means they were surveilling him on his cross-country trip to Pennsylvania. The officer had to make up some infraction to make it seem legit.

And IMO the one officer didn't know the other already had.

JMO

MOO it was independent unwise action by the Indiana ISP and CO sheriff.
MOO IN LE was made aware BK was travelling through and they wanted to see him.
The two IN LE agencies didn't communicate because their actions were a bit rogue so they ended up with two stops, MOO prompting BK to even more car cleaning in PA.

I’ve wondered why LE made the traffic stops, because they seem to have no rhyme or reason.

IMO