Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #204

[Warwick7]

I really appreciate you asking on this because I realize some posters may view this theory as quite far-fetched. (And maybe it is way off.)

He had two victims. He did not always treat these victims the same. Initially, as far as we know, though, he did. "Guys," down the hill. Both young girls are "guys." To him, so far, they are both to him the same. But then, things change. Libby's injuries are different. She has multiple injuries, Abby has the single cut mark. The clothes are different. Libby has been left out there with no clothes, Abby is almost fully clothed. In fact, Abby has clothing original to her for many items and what she doesn't have, she has in some cases been dressed in Libby's clothing. The placement of the bodies is somewhat different. Libby is near that tree, arm upright. Abby's arms are kind of folded inwards to her chest. And Libby has the phone and shoe beneath her.

The bullet is between the victims. MOO, he wanted separation between these victims, and my guess is he killed them at least in part to gain that in his own head. The bullet at home was, I believe, perhaps his only souvenir from that CS. Having been "interrupted," he was probably not in much of a mood for souvenirs (although you never know). But the bullet was special, and the bullet was an unknown: it wasn't something someone would "miss" because the viewer would have to know it was introduced at the scene to begin with. It is a mystery to which only he knows the answer. The bullets for him are incredible power. (Definitely) MOO, in his own sick head, he has some strong (fantasy) connection to one of these girls and really, really resented the other girl, the dear best friend.

He is a horror.

What an interesting post.....!

 

[girlhasnoname]

Even if the markings were only unique to a certain batch of P226, or even P226 as a whole… that’s still one huge piece of circumstantial evidence that still requires a huge suspension of disbelief to find the totality of evidence as something that would reasonably occur to an innocent person.

JMO

Just another brick in the wall of guilt. IMO

 

[INfisherman]

Add in: In 2017, he said he arrived at the trail around 1:30 p.m. and left around 3:30 p.m. In 2022, he said he arrived there around noon and was not on the trail later than 2 p.m.

Why did he change his timeline?

Might end up with a much longer list due to all the inexplicable things in this case or things that just defy logic or common sense.

ETA autocorrect is killing me today.

 

[wastelands_]

Do we think todays DNA testimony is going to be about the hair on Abby’s finger?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Add in: In 2017, he said he arrived at the trail around 1:30 p.m. and left around 3:30 p.m. In 2022, he said he arrived there around noon and was not on the trail later than 2 p.m.

Why did he change his timeline?

IMO RA knew he had to cover himself during the real timeline. He was on MHB at 2:15 coming at the girls and ordering them DTH and leaving by old county road N300 at 3:47 pm.

I do think it's worth mentioning that KA attended the Oct 2022 interview with RA. If RA gave his statement of being on the trails to Dulin on 2/18 and was cleared, perhaps KA was questioning why LE wanted to speak with RA again. Maybe she wanted to hear things for herself firsthand, rather than just what RA might have told her in 2017.

JMO

 

[INfisherman]

@snooptroop88

I’m thinking we’re both smelling what he was stepping in, so to speak.

I also feel he has a thing for confidence, power, control. The gun & moving them off the bridge was the control. Not needed at all, he could have killed them both in under a minute right there & likely slipped away unnoticed with all other events being the same. Getting away led to confidence & possible toying with police (coming forward, giving them his phone).

Interesting things to ponder.

What really frustrates me is what really happened prior to him allegedly going to the bridge & was this a long term planned event possibly involving others (grooming) but not directly involved at the scene in any way.

Evidently IN has quite the large CSAM as large batches of arrests are continually made in the county which I reside with some perps coming from out of state.

JMO

ETA snooptroop, forgot to quote, fat fingering

 

[steeltowngirl]

Who "cleared" Richard Allen's tip.

A dispatcher who had access to green dots.

The Allen file was labeled with a green dot, Shank said, meaning it had been cleared. The document also appeared to have been mislabeled as "Richard Allen Whiteman." Allen lived on Whiteman Drive in Delphi.

[…]
Allen "got lost in the cracks," Liggett told jurors, and someone who he believes was a dispatcher cleared the Allen lead in 2017. But he said it "shouldn't have been" cleared.

Richard Allen was not on Delphi investigators' radar. Then a volunteer found a box of tips.

Testimonies in the double-murder trial revealed how investigators focused on Richard Allen in 2022.

www.jconline.com

 

[shonyakay]

I wonder what DNA will be testified about, maybe they have the results from the hair

Me too. Holeman talked about how they have DNA in this 2017 article.

"At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

DELPHI, Ind. – Six months into the search for the killer of Abby Williams and Libby German, we are learning new information about the evidence police are using to track down the suspect. “It takes …

fox59.com

 

[shonyakay]

DBM
Info already shared upthread

 

[Bergmann]

Even if the markings were only unique to a certain batch of P226, or even P226 as a whole… that’s still one huge piece of circumstantial evidence that still requires a huge suspension of disbelief to find the totality of evidence as something that would reasonably occur to an innocent person.

JMO

Not sure I understand that in relation to the point I was making.

I am pointing out that if experts under controlled blind test conditions cannot consistently identify bullets ejected from RA’s Sig from bullets ejected from other Sigs then it invalidates any inference that these experts can definitively say that the bullet found at the crime scene had to come from RA’s gun with any degree of scientific certainty.

Nothing to do with batches etc. in the test design you call always run this two ways, ie 5 guns from same batch as RA’s as one test and then 5 guns from 5 different batches. The validation of whether experts can positively and consistently identify bullets from specific guns is the issue.

It’s a suggested logic rather than opinion but I’ll say IMO.

 

[Niner]

https://fox59.com/news/legal-expert-doubts-states-bullet-evidence-against-richard-allen/

"... Former Indiana State Police forensic firearms examiner Melissa Oberg testified all day in front of a jury of seven women and five men in Carroll County Circuit Court. ..."

That is the 'actual" jurors - I have that. What I need is the alternates - I have 3 women & 1 man. Guessing it is a woman - so in my notes I shall change it to 2 women & 1 man - until I see anything different! But thanks!

 

[Bergmann]

Me too. Holeman talked about how they have DNA in this 2017 article.

"At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

DELPHI, Ind. – Six months into the search for the killer of Abby Williams and Libby German, we are learning new information about the evidence police are using to track down the suspect. “It takes …

fox59.com

 

[shonyakay]

Me too. Holeman talked about how they have DNA in this 2017 article.

"At every crime scene, you are going to have DNA. We are still working on identifying all of the DNA that we have there,” said Sgt. Holeman

Lead detective in Delphi murders confirms police have more audio from phone, DNA evidence

DELPHI, Ind. – Six months into the search for the killer of Abby Williams and Libby German, we are learning new information about the evidence police are using to track down the suspect. “It takes …

fox59.com

This must be the comment that got misconstrued and made people think Abby and Libby were talking "girl talk" on the recording.

That is not the case.

"does not appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls." - Sgt. Holeman

 

[WildHuncher]

This must be the comment that got misconstrued and made people think Abby and Libby were talking "girl talk" on the recording.

That is not the case.

"does not appear to be anything more than some discussion between the girls." - Sgt. Holeman

…about whether there’s anywhere to go to get away from the creepazoid bearing down on them from over the bridge, yes.

 

[INfisherman]

The validation of whether experts can positively and consistently identify bullets from specific guns is the issue.

RSBM

Evidently since the testimony is allowed in this state and many others, that is apparently of no consequence at the time being. IMO that boils down to is it fair or not & we all know the system isn’t perfect. To add, it doesn’t have to be without out doubt but beyond reasonable doubt in the end and by the jury, not either one of us. Otherwise so called experts could potentially take weeks or months refuting each other’s testimony.

This isn’t to say your conclusion is wrong by any means. One also might be able to come to similar conclusions regarding what is allowed in court as testimony or evidence for completely different subject matter.

ETA JMO

 

[ClearAhead]

TMS said at the end of the hearing it was mentioned the DNA expert plus one other witness had originally been scheduled to testify yesterday afternoon if Rozzi’s cross hadn’t filled the time.

So we may hear from two witnesses this morning which suggests their topic of testimony should be quite brief. MOO

 

[Vern]

TMS said at the end of the hearing it was mentioned the DNA expert plus one other witness had originally been scheduled to testify yesterday afternoon if Rozzi’s cross hadn’t filled the time.

So we may hear from two witnesses this morning which suggests their topic of testimony should be quite brief. MOO

IIRC, isn't Rozzi also supposed to be back on this morning with his photo exhibits marked for all the jurors + alternates? Or did he get that finally sorted out yesterday evening?

 

[Warwick7]

At 2:32 p.m.
Libby's phone ceases movement, according to the Apple Health Data on her cellphone.
Would an Apple Health Data recording, fast or slow heart rate, or when heart stopped beating?

 

[FrostedGlass]

@snooptroop88

I’m thinking we’re both smelling what he was stepping in, so to speak.

I also feel he has a thing for confidence, power, control. The gun & moving them off the bridge was the control. Not needed at all, he could have killed them both in under a minute right there & likely slipped away unnoticed with all other events being the same. Getting away led to confidence & possible toying with police (coming forward, giving them his phone).

Interesting things to ponder.

What really frustrates me is what really happened prior to him allegedly going to the bridge & was this a long term planned event possibly involving others (grooming) but not directly involved at the scene in any way.

Evidently IN has quite the large CSAM as large batches of arrests are continually made in the county which I reside with some perps coming from out of state.

JMO

ETA snooptroop, forgot to quote, fat fingering

It's good to see another Indiana resident here; I'm particularly interested in your opinion.
Considering the expert who testified about the markings:
Do you think the fact that she worked for ISP could have influenced her subjective opinion? Or even that of her superior?

 

[justtrish]

At 2:32 p.m.
Libby's phone ceases movement, according to the Apple Health Data on her cellphone.
Would an Apple Health Data recording, fast or slow heart rate, or when heart stopped beating?

No because it's not from a watch that could track that data. I believe now people can use an apple watch that connects to their phone and that data is very likely to be part of the total picture. Libby didn't have an Apple watch, just the phone. The watch would be able to track pulse on the wrist, but I don't think the phone has any way to do that without a watch connected to it.