Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #204

[SandyQLS]

That is what I thought too - a woman. But I shall wait & see if any of the reporters tells us! Thanks!

https://fox59.com/news/legal-expert-doubts-states-bullet-evidence-against-richard-allen/

"... Former Indiana State Police forensic firearms examiner Melissa Oberg testified all day in front of a jury of seven women and five men in Carroll County Circuit Court. ..."

 

[Inthedetails]

I never considered the idea that RA may have left that bullet at the CS intentionally. That's an interesting notion for sure. I have some speculation on this, but would love to hear yours, as to why would he do that?

Oh! I never thought of that either, but could leaving the bullet be a "signature" that has been mentioned??

Thinking aloud, not stating a fact or even suggesting this is likely. Brainstorming only.

jmo

 

[wastelands_]

Oh! I never thought of that either, but could leaving the bullet be a "signature" that has been mentioned??

Thinking aloud, not stating a fact or even suggesting this is likely. Brainstorming only.

jmo

Would sort of explain the “keepsake” bullet they found at his house, too!

 

[INfisherman]

Oh! I never thought of that either, but could leaving the bullet be a "signature" that has been mentioned??

Thinking aloud, not stating a fact or even suggesting this is likely. Brainstorming only.

jmo

When thinking of that, also consider the lack of evidence at CS, his home, his car, him voluntarily coming forward, changing his height.

To me, those are indications of forms of confidence. I’m going to test you LE, I was in control then & in control now. The change in height, to me, indicates he felt like a bigger man. As time went on, he felt smarter.

Why? He was a defeated man when LEO showed up at his house from that point until he got his defense team including 2 women telling him to stop his nonsense (I hear act like a man). Prior to that, he was openly aggressive to LEO when they started questioning him more thoroughly.

Could his alleged mental issues be male/female dominance related? Too many bossy suggestions push him over the edge, he reaches the breaking point. Keep in mind, he allegedly visited his mom the day of & by end of the day the smaller, softer girl (AW) was taken in a more gentle fashion but the girl who was known as a protector & defender was cut multiple times & left in a humiliating manner with her legs spread open.

JMO

 

[mrjitty]

I feel like the prosecution has done a good job of torquing up the circumstantial evidence against RA. The bullet is but one suggestive element, and when you take them all together, there is only one reasonable inference.

I see the evidence in groups:

Time and Place: It's been established IMO, that the girls were murdered before 3pm at the crime scene. This is quite a setback for the D version in opening. The second location theory is not only wildly implausible, it simply is contradicted by the evidence.

Links: RA's statements, confessions, the bullet, the box cutters and knives, the keepsake, the photos of the bridge - these taken all together are highly probative IMO. Sure you can speculate them individually away - but that's not how the process of inference works.

Timeline: This part is disastrous IMO. 5 critical witnesses saw Bridge Guy, plus he is on video. So that makes 7 - everyone who was on the trails from around 1.30pm on. Yet RA says he only saw 3 juveniles and managed not to see BB, the victims or Bridge Guy.

Even SODDI can't get him off that hook.

So I wonder if the D might implicitly accept RA probably is Bridge Guy - but Bridge Guy isn't conclusively the abductor?

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

Issues for RA in terms of the circumstantial web

1. Who are the mysterious 3 girls he saw?
2. What about his phone data that presumably clears him?
3. Why is his phone not available and will he testify to explain this?
4. Where did he park actually and what route did he take? Note counsel cannot testify for him on this
5. If his confessions were involuntary - will he testify to say this?
6. Why was the unspent round in the keepsake box?

MOO

 

[INfisherman]

I’d be curious to know if the SODDI theory could be put into major doubt via cell tower data (if even available or possible). If I’m understanding correctly, they really put a nail in the coffin concerning RA’s claim about checking his stocks & none of his cell numbers showed up pinging. I wonder if LE attempted the same thing for everyone who came forward as witnesses or known to be there around the time of the abductions then worked backwards? Any phones that show up as pinging & not known to be there, find out who they are (if possible) and go from there. Those who had no contracts would likely be using burner phones but next to impossible to find out who they might be.

JMO thinking out loud.

ETA spelling errors due to autocorrect.

 

[mrjitty]

I’d be curious to know if the SODDI theory could be put into major double via cell tower data (if even available or possible). If I’m understanding correctly, they really put a nail in the coffin concerning RA’s claim about checking his stocks & none of his cell numbers showed up pinging. I wonder if LE attempted the same thing for everyone who came forward as witnesses or known to be there around the time of the abductions then worked backwards? Any phones that show up as pinging & not known to be there, find out who they are (if possible) and go from there. Those who had no contracts would likely be using burner phones but next to impossible to find out who they might be.

JMO thinking out loud.

IMO they used the tower info to find and corroborate witnesses.

They will have expected all along that the killer is the guy who didn't have a phone with him (or it was turned off).

 

[INfisherman]

Issues for RA in terms of the circumstantial web

1. Who are the mysterious 3 girls he saw?
2. What about his phone data that presumably clears him?
3. Why is his phone not available and will he testify to explain this?
4. Where did he park actually and what route did he take? Note counsel cannot testify for him on this
5. If his confessions were involuntary - will he testify to say this?
6. Why was the unspent round in the keepsake box?

MOO

I’d throw in there why did he say & what exactly did he mean when he said it was over during the execution of the search warrant.

 

[katydid23]

No. This is the reason they have alternates. Fortunately, this was apparently an alternate according to the first tweet we had on this.

I know that many states don't decide who is an alternate and who is a juror until the final trial day. I think that works better because alternates probably are not as invested or pay as much attention than the main jurors. And they have to sit through the whole trial---just in case.

 

[m00c0w]

I’d like to see the same brand of ammo loaded and ejected from say five or more sig sauers of the same model including RA’s, the ammo collected and then so called ballistics experts under blind test conditions pick out RA’s ammo consistently from a statistical point of view.

This would to my mind establish some sound basis for attributing the bullet to RA’s gun.

I’m guessing that the states testing probably obviates this as it has now left identifying marks. This is a shame imo.

JMO

Even if the markings were only unique to a certain batch of P226, or even P226 as a whole… that’s still one huge piece of circumstantial evidence that still requires a huge suspension of disbelief to find the totality of evidence as something that would reasonably occur to an innocent person.

JMO

 

[INfisherman]

IMO they used the tower info to find and corroborate witnesses.

They will have expected all along that the killer is the guy who didn't have a phone with him (or it was turned off).

Right but couldn’t you also do the opposite to find anyone who didn’t come forward (wasn’t a witness)?

My only concern is the potential for the E/SE area of the bridge. That’s really the only area that doesn’t contain an eyewitness in order for the SODDI to be 100% over with (beyond reasonable doubt). Maybe I’m missing something else more obvious?

ETA autocorrect (behind/beyond)

 

[mrjitty]

Even if the markings were only unique to a certain batch of P226, or even P226 as a whole… that’s still one huge piece of circumstantial evidence that still requires a huge suspension of disbelief to find the totality of evidence as something that would reasonably occur to an innocent person.

JMO

Agreed. This witness ruled out other guns and ruled in his. That is another plank in the case.

 

[mrjitty]

Right but couldn’t you also do the opposite to find anyone who didn’t come forward (wasn’t a witness)?

My only concern is the potential for the E/SE area of the bridge. That’s really the only area that doesn’t contain an eyewitness in order for the SODDI to be 100% over with (behind reasonable doubt). Maybe I’m missing something else more obvious?

Dulin basically said they tracked down potential witnesses via the phone data IIRC

 

[snooptroop88]

I never considered the idea that RA may have left that bullet at the CS intentionally. That's an interesting notion for sure. I have some speculation on this, but would love to hear yours, as to why would he do that?

I really appreciate you asking on this because I realize some posters may view this theory as quite far-fetched. (And maybe it is way off.)

He had two victims. He did not always treat these victims the same. Initially, as far as we know, though, he did. "Guys," down the hill. Both young girls are "guys." To him, so far, they are both to him the same. But then, things change. Libby's injuries are different. She has multiple injuries, Abby has the single cut mark. The clothes are different. Libby has been left out there with no clothes, Abby is almost fully clothed. In fact, Abby has clothing original to her for many items and what she doesn't have, she has in some cases been dressed in Libby's clothing. The placement of the bodies is somewhat different. Libby is near that tree, arm upright. Abby's arms are kind of folded inwards to her chest. And Libby has the phone and shoe beneath her.

The bullet is between the victims. MOO, he wanted separation between these victims, and my guess is he killed them at least in part to gain that in his own head. The bullet at home was, I believe, perhaps his only souvenir from that CS. Having been "interrupted," he was probably not in much of a mood for souvenirs (although you never know). But the bullet was special, and the bullet was an unknown: it wasn't something someone would "miss" because the viewer would have to know it was introduced at the scene to begin with. It is a mystery to which only he knows the answer. The bullets for him are incredible power. (Definitely) MOO, in his own sick head, he has some strong (fantasy) connection to one of these girls and really, really resented the other girl, the dear best friend.

He is a horror.

 

[INfisherman]

I’m not a knowledgeable gun owner/user. However I’m quite experienced at how things are manufactured & common practices used for profitability.

It’s not uncommon for manufacturers across different industries to sell things with outsides looking different but the insides are the same. I’ll use something simple as an example such as a riding mower or car. The chassis (frame), engine, brakes, even the interior of vehicle might all be the same, but they throw a different body (exterior) over it with different badges/decals/labels & sell it as 2 different mowers/cars/trucks under different models or brands.

I could see a gun having this done - internals are the same but the outsides are different so just because a model is labeled differently doesn’t make it necessarily so. No one asked & maybe she knew that was the case.

ETA spelling, punctuation.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don't think it is ever classed as bullying when it is his job to impeach a witness, I would hope he is aggressive and confrontational,

Different opinions, it will only matter how the jury interpreted it. JMO

 

[INfisherman]

it will only matter how the jury interpreted it.

RSBM

Fact.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Finishing up the latest "Murder Sheet" episode and it's stated that coming up next (today/Saturday) is the state's DNA witness.

Should be interesting testimony, especially since there is no DNA reportedly tying RA to the CS. Oh, and is that zombie Woodstock? He is scary, lol.

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

I’d throw in there why did he say & what exactly did he mean when he said it was over during the execution of the search warrant.

Add in: In 2017, he said he arrived at the trail around 1:30 p.m. and left around 3:30 p.m. In 2022, he said he arrived there around noon and was not on the trail later than 2 p.m.

Why did he change his timeline?