VERDICT WATCH Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #213

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Unless the reasons are made clear, why is it still being discussed? It’s an absolutely horrific mental picture, that serves no purpose in determining RA’s innocence or guilt.

jmo
I am now done discussing it. I only inquired if that was even possible because the defense made mention of how long it too Abby to die and then made mention of screams or the lack thereof. Which I found to be in poor taste, as if it suggested somehow she should or could have but did not.

I took umbrage to that - asked a simple question and now we've had pages and pages of discussion about it, which was not my intent.
 

"During a call on Nov. 14, 2022, Allen told his wife if the situation became “too much,” he’d talk to investigators and tell them what they wanted to know.

His wife, Kathy, replied, “You need to just hang in there.”

“I’m sorry, baby,” Allen responded. “It’s just one more thing I *advertiser censored**** up for you.” He told her he loved her."

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I don't remember that part! That's almost sounding like a confession.
He didn’t say he would tell them what he did.

He said he would tell them what they wanted to hear.

It is an important difference.
 
Now that the evidence is in, I really do not have a firm opinion about whether Richard Allen is the killer. I was hoping for more convincing proof from the State, but they did not deliver IMO

Here are just some of the problems/questions I have about the State’s case:

  1. Many of their witnesses seemed to tailor their testimony for trial, changing testimony from what they had said previously.
  2. There were problems with the testimony of most, if not all, of their experts.
  3. They did not firm up the timeline, but actually cast more doubt about it. If the HH video ~1:30 was Richard Allen’s Ford Focus, it was driving in the wrong direction for RA to be entering the trails, but would have been more consistent with RA leaving the trails and heading home.
  4. All of the witness descriptions of BG or whoever they saw do not even remotely describe RA, and importantly no one identified him in court.
  5. Since all the interview recordings for the first couple of weeks were lost, I’m not sure I believe that RA initially said he was on the trials from 1:30-3:30.
  6. I think the State unethically tried to enter the “confessions” as truthful when they knew they were unreliable and while RA was psychotic.
  7. The bullet expert couldn’t get consistent marks by cycling the bullet through RA’s gun.
  8. It was never verified where RA parked or at what time or what time he left.
  9. And importantly I do not think this was a fair trial. I think the defense should have been permitted to put in their defense, and I think the judge’s evidentiary rulings in the trial were very biased from the reporting I’ve read.
  10. While not related to the trial specifically, the behavior of the prosecutors pre-trial was abominable IMO Trying to disqualify RA’s attorneys, not turning over evidence timely, opposing motions to transfer RA to better conditions, etc.
With all that in mind, I do not trust much of the State’s evidence and I think they have failed to prove RA was the killer.
Agree with 1 through 5 and 7 and 8. I don't have the detailed background to weigh in on 10, but there were times during the trial where I found the prosecution objections weak and Judge Gulls rulings at times questionable (9). I have to believe the prosecutors were smart enough that they would get pushback about the lucidness of the confessions but their cross was weak IMO. I don't think the jury has an "easy" decision to make. They seemed too sharp with their questions not to understand what unfolded in front of them.
 
I really am disappointed this didn’t come in, if for no other reason than this week has been pretty boring. I could have had a lot of fun with this theory.
I continue to believe that the branches were placed with the intention of making it look like a ritualistic crime.

Which could be an actual ritualistic crime, or it could be someone who wanted it to seem like it was.
 
One thing that will happen and is probably already being prepared is RA will begin a civil case for his treatment pretrial, and IMO he should sue all the people who were involved,
IMO he was deliberately placed in solitary not for safekeeping but for punishment,
I have followed cases where the defendant has been charged with equally horrific crimes, some who have killed many more victims and they were housed in county jail and got to trial with no problems
And I hope that the Innocent men listed in the D-team's false FM, accusing them even though they have been investigated and cleared, I hope they file a suit against the D-team.

RA has no recourse, IMO -- He was placed there for his own protection from others and from Self harm.
His antics that we heard about clearly shows he needed to be on watch.

He would not have survived in county jail.

Heck, he threatened to kill the guards in Cass County where he has been for barely 4 weeks. SMH
JMO
 
With all we have “heard” from the trial, I have a hard time believing as a jury member that I would be able to say he is guilty BARD. Just too many holes and issues with testimony as well as the solitary confinement. What a mess.

JMO
 
I think the BW theory is one that LE should have investigated,

They did investigate him, fully.
what RA is accused of doing is equally implausible and far more difficult than BW taking them on a road to his home
RA we are to believe took 2 girls down a steep embankment, they all 3 had to have been walking unhindered ie not tied up in any way as to get down the hill would be difficult, he had to get both girls to the same spot to cross the river, the stàtes theory is he has a gun, but in going down the hill it would have been difficult to have it pointed right at the girls at all times,

All he had to do was point it at Abbys head, point blank, and Libby would have been forced to comply.
once down the hill he had to get them to wade across the stream and up very muddy steep embankment the other side, all in broad daylight, out in the open, and with no idea how many people were out on the trails that afternoon, still in broad daylight

He had been drinking, he was already suicidal so he didn't really care anymore what happened...he was severely depressed so doing something so risky was exciting...
(with the possibility anybody could have been hiking or walking in the area, or the landowner walking on his land)

no matter who did this, thy had the same concerns, but someone did it in spite of the concerns,,,
he had to get them both to take clothes off,
at gunpoint they'd comply
AW testimony wasn't sure if she took off bras and vest but she took off everything below the waist, he then had to put gun in pocket or somewhere else,

but he still had the knee;;;;
then get hold of one girl fatally wound her then do the same to the other in broad daylight,

broad daylight but they were in a remote pocket of private property--no one around.
he then redressed one victim,
I don't think he himself redressed them
and then in broad daylight left the scene on foot had to walk out onto a busy road to get to his car, he had to have been soaking wet from river and i expect he had blood on him,

And that's why he was seen by one witness...
LG testimony revealed was able to assert herself and would stand up for herself, but nobody heard anything that day,
The first thing he did was slit their throats---no chance to scream

Libby didn't scream earlier because he had the gun to Abby's head.
RA testimony was he was a fragile egg, seems to be totally reliant on his wife, is small for a man, and his personality IMO doesn't feel as dominant

That was the defense testimony about his personality. I don't think it is that accurate. He looked pretty aggressive and forceful in the police interviews, imo
where he could control two girls, even if at gunpoint, and then when he put gun away to get knife,
he did control them, put a gun at one girls head and both will comply---

At gunpoint, he orders them both to lie down face to the ground---he goes to the greatest threat, Libby, maybe straddles her on his knees, and slits her throat---
then does same to Abby
According to the crime scene evidence, Libby tried to flee but only made it to the big tree, she leaned against it and he caught her and continue slashing.
he could have just shot them, two shots in quick succession may not have caused alarm especially with testimony that hunting happened at the crime scene,
but it might have caused alarm with neighbours because it wasn't hunting season--and that was private property
but they were not shot
no need for shots
and he then proceeded to spend more time at scene where he could have been discovered
killers are stupid, especially in the middle of their frenzy
So all that versus someone taking them into his house (I'm not saying I think BW did it,
Right, because he was at work when they were kidnapped...
I am just opining on the theories of what BW would have to have done versus the states theory of what RA has to do
The police were at BW's door, searching his property, interviewing him, and eventually looked at his gun, which was tested, and his phone, which was downloaded, and interviewed his boss, in an ongoing investigation.

So if someone living in that immediate area took the girls to their home they would have been caught, imo.
 
I predict a guilty verdict by 4pm Saturday.
I agree. If they are all leaning Not Guilty they will likely be done already, no more deliberation needed. Let's go home.
If they are convinced of his Guilt, same thing. Let's get home, we're done.

The only big delay will be if they are strongly divided.
 
Now that the evidence is in, I really do not have a firm opinion about whether Richard Allen is the killer. I was hoping for more convincing proof from the State, but they did not deliver IMO

Here are just some of the problems/questions I have about the State’s case:

  1. Many of their witnesses seemed to tailor their testimony for trial, changing testimony from what they had said previously.
  2. There were problems with the testimony of most, if not all, of their experts.
  3. They did not firm up the timeline, but actually cast more doubt about it. If the HH video ~1:30 was Richard Allen’s Ford Focus, it was driving in the wrong direction for RA to be entering the trails, but would have been more consistent with RA leaving the trails and heading home.
  4. All of the witness descriptions of BG or whoever they saw do not even remotely describe RA, and importantly no one identified him in court.
  5. Since all the interview recordings for the first couple of weeks were lost, I’m not sure I believe that RA initially said he was on the trials from 1:30-3:30.
  6. I think the State unethically tried to enter the “confessions” as truthful when they knew they were unreliable and while RA was psychotic.
  7. The bullet expert couldn’t get consistent marks by cycling the bullet through RA’s gun.
  8. It was never verified where RA parked or at what time or what time he left.
  9. And importantly I do not think this was a fair trial. I think the defense should have been permitted to put in their defense, and I think the judge’s evidentiary rulings in the trial were very biased from the reporting I’ve read.
  10. While not related to the trial specifically, the behavior of the prosecutors pre-trial was abominable IMO Trying to disqualify RA’s attorneys, not turning over evidence timely, opposing motions to transfer RA to better conditions, etc.
With all that in mind, I do not trust much of the State’s evidence and I think they have failed to prove RA was the killer.
As for number 5, RA was never interviewed on video in the first place.
 
Absolutely absurd. Two things can be true at the same time. Those conditions were terrible, and Richard Allen murdered two girls.

A guilty verdict has nothing to do with endorsing this behavior. This is off the walls stupid. It’s about Allen’s guilt or innocence, not guilting jurors into finding him not guilty.

I’ll have additional updates in a few hours. For now, here’s a quick quote Brad Rozzi said toward the end of his closing argument when talking about the conditions inside of Westville —

“Rendering a verdict of guilt could be endorsing this behavior."

@WISHNews8 #RichardAllen #RichardAllenTrial


 
I've been leaning towards thinking the jury will come back with a "split" verdict in this trial. "Guilty" on the two felony murder charges "not guilty"/hung jury on the murder charges. That they can believe RA kidnapped the girls and that ultimately led to their deaths, but they're unsure if he was the one to actually kill them.

Not what I personally think, but I do think this is a possibility if they wind up getting hung up on the details.
 
I've been leaning towards thinking the jury will come back with a "split" verdict in this trial. "Guilty" on the two felony murder charges "not guilty"/hung jury on the murder charges. That they can believe RA kidnapped the girls and that ultimately led to their deaths, but they're unsure if he was the one to actually kill them.

Not what I personally think, but I do think this is a possibility if they wind up getting hung up on the details.
Fair take.

And it's good the prosecution didn't put all the eggs in one basket so a jury does have options, as you state.

jmo
 
So completely not used to juries quitting early, and being required to work Saturday- I get the Saturday with sequestered- not sure I get early day 1 of deliberations- maybe I’m missing something? Anyone able to help me?
They already had a day sitting and listening to instructions and closings, and I don't fault them for wanting some breathing room before delving into the deliberations for a full day.

Or...it could mean they are already in agreement early but want to sleep on it.

Juries work hard and put in time, but there are always comments that the hours are not long enough. (Not saying that to anyone in particular, just something I've noticed on several cases.)

jmo
 
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