Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #10 *Arrest*

[MsMarple]

Key Event
8m ago

Other possible devices not seized by police raised by defence​

By Judd Boaz​

Another photo is shown of the same room, showing white shelving on three sides, with a desk in the middle of the room and items in small plastic baskets.

On the shelves are black objects, which Mr Mandy suggests are laptops.

"If those are laptops, this is the first time I'm learning of these items," LSC Eppingstall says.

Mr Mandy tells the court that other devices in the house were not seized, which LSC Eppingstall cannot confirm.

Key Event
13m ago

More photos of possible phones shown​

By Judd Boaz​

Another photograph of the August 5 search is shown, this time of the computer/Lego room in Erin's home.

A plastic storage basket is pictured with an object in it.

"It does look as though there's a phone box in that basket," Mr Mandy says.

"Yeah it does, sir," LSC Eppingstall says.

Key Event
16m ago

Some devices not taken by police during search​

By Judd Boaz​

Mr Mandy tells the court that there were some electronic devices that were not seized during the search of Erin Patterson's house.

LSC Eppingstall says that while Erin mentioned a Nokia during her police interview, police did not seize a Nokia during the search.

Mr Mandy shows the court an image of Erin Patterson's home during the search, and points towards a black object sitting on a windowsill.

He suggests that this black object was in fact the Nokia phone, which LSC Eppingstall disagrees with.

"I don’t think that’s consistent with a phone," LSC Eppingstall says.

"If that was a phone, I would think we would have found it, would have seized it."

Defence cross-examines police witness in Erin Patterson trial — as it happened

Erin Patterson is accused of murdering three of her relatives by serving them a beef Wellington lunch which contained death cap mushrooms. Follow the trial live.

www.abc.net.au

 

[MsMarple]

2m ago

Defence casts doubt over CCTV footage​

By Judd Boaz​

CCTV footage from a Subway restaurant is shown again to the court, which the prosecution earlier argued showed Erin Patterson dropping her son off to buy a meal.

Mr Mandy makes the argument that it is in fact not footage of Erin Patterson.

He puts to LSC Eppingstall that there is nothing else besides the vehicle being consistent with Erin Patterson's vehicle and the teenager getting out of it, that allows police to say it is in fact Erin.
LSC Eppingstall agrees with that suggestion.

Mr Mandy then shows a still from CCTV footage inside the Subway restaurant, and suggests that a teenager pictured is not Erin Patterson's son.

"I believe it to be [Erin Patterson's son] but that's a matter for the jury," he says.

 

[Yh5r]

That's a great list

DNA, Fingerprints - all circumstantial evidence. People talk about circumstantial evidence as though it's not as important as direct evidence, which is entirely untrue. Circumstantial evidence is the majority of evidence used in all murder convictions.

As for smoking guns, I believe the pre-lunch actions are the most damning, because they show planning and intent IMO. This is all my opinion only...

Pre-lunch Smoking Guns (IMO)​

Allegedly luring the in-laws there under false pretences and to arguably apply pressure to Simon to appear.
The financial angst she had with Simon and the obvious disdain she had for his parents.[/ul]
The fact she started using a new SIM 2.5 weeks BEFORE the lunch.
The fact she tried to organise a lunch that Simon was to attend in June, but he pulled out at the last minute, she had to do it again the next month.
Purchasing the dehydrator.
Obviously drying and preserving Death Caps which made it into the fatal lunch without making it into any of the kids 'brownies' she was hiding mushrooms in. We know they are only available around May, so it was clearly pre-planned.
The lies about the illness(es) in the lead up to pressure Simon's family to pressure Simon to attend (IMO).
Buying so much pastry, mushrooms, etc in the days leading up to the lunch - "practising" (IMO)

During-Lunch Smoking Guns (IMO)​

Serving individual beef Wellingtons
Serving on different plates
Banishing the children from the meal to prevent poisoning them (IMO)

Then you go to the post-lunch behaviours which don't satisfy 'intent', but are still powerfully compelling, IMO.

Post-Lunch Smoking Guns (IMO)​

Continual lying, hiding, obstructing police and health authorities, tampering with evidence both in the presence of police and during a search warrant.
Lies to hospital staff about her condition.
Going to the car while in the hospital.
Leaving the hospital and spending time "Cleaning up" at home (In my opinion) before police contacting her to return to hospital. I think she wouldn't have returned if not for the police.
Resisting her kids to be seen by medical experts.
Putting out a statement to media full of lies and refusing to cooperate with police.
Feeding the children "leftovers" after her in-laws were gravely ill from the meal.
Disposing of phone A somewhere between the two search warrants (evidence by the tech sniffer dogs not finding it).
CCTV and bank receipt for dehydrator disposal.
Finger prints on dehydrator.
Refusing to answer questions about the lunch by the media, instead being emotionally manipulative with her crocodile tears and feigned care for the family members to shape public perception of her.

I believe she did panic after the lunch, because she didn't expect the Health department, Police, Media, etc to be involved. The scrutiny made her panic and act in a disorganised manner, as nearly all offenders do when they are scrutinised. Panicking isn't a good defence, therefore.

Great list.

I would add to the Pre-Lunch smoking guns that she stated these dried mushrooms were "funny smelling" and didn't suit a previous carbonara dish so she chose to put them into an eleborate and expensive meal like Beef Wellington. Together with the other things on your list and the fact that she had bought so many mushrooms from Woolies already, it is a smoking gun to me.

 

[Lisa4]

I agree. Panicking really is a very weak defence here.

There are various reasons for a truly innocent person to panic when under suspicion. One is that they may fear they are not going to be believed.
Throwing out a perfectly good (and untainted) dehydrator may therefore be understandable under certain circumstances.

However, throwing out a dehydrator with traces of deathcap mushrooms, when that is the fatal toxin? Panic in this scenario would have to relate purely to guilt!

Wouldn't any innocent person panicking under suspicious circumstances such as accidentally poisoning guests, be guided quickly by their lawyers to admit the truth?

 

[Detechtive]

That's a great list

Great list.

I would add to the Pre-Lunch smoking guns that she stated these dried mushrooms were "funny smelling" and didn't suit a previous carbonara dish so she chose to put them into an eleborate and expensive meal like Beef Wellington. Together with the other things on your list and the fact that she had bought so many mushrooms from Woolies already, it is a smoking gun to me.

Agree, but I don't trust Erin's testimony at this point - other than what I can objectively obtain from news sources, the trial, etc. The "Funny smelling" experience of Erin wasn't witnessed, so I have doubts about the truth of that statement.

I think the over purchasing of pastry, mushrooms, etc is quite the smoking gun too actually. Anyone who cooks knows that a pasty sized beef wellington would only use 1/2 a sheet of puff pastry at most, IMO. The fact she only served 5 (and possibly made six) would only equal 3 sheets of pastry. Even if you consider that she might have messed up a few sheets, we are still only using 1 packet of puff pastry. Why the need for the multiple other purchases?

 

[Detechtive]

I

I agree. Panicking really is a very weak defence here.

There are various reasons for a truly innocent person to panic when under suspicion. One is that they may fear they are not going to be believed.
Throwing out a perfectly good (and untainted) dehydrator may therefore be understandable under certain circumstances.

However, throwing out a dehydrator with traces of deathcap mushrooms, when that is the fatal toxin? Panic in this scenario would have to relate purely to guilt!

Wouldn't any innocent person panicking under suspicious circumstances such as accidentally poisoning guests, be guided quickly by their lawyers to admit the truth?

IMO innocent people wouldn't even have a lawyer from the get-go. They would be cooperating with police, madly trying to minimise harm, and acting in the best interest of the victims rather than opting for self-protection.

 

[Lisa4]

But if you're stingy, you aren't splurging on takeout meals. That's my point. I get delivery food, but I wouldn't ever spend $25/person on that kind of food. That's how much my Mother's Day Brunch cost in an expensive restaurant. Like you said- there are cheaper options for food.

She's stingy with others maybe. But not where it serves herself.

 

[Yh5r]

Agree, but I don't trust Erin's testimony at this point - other than what I can objectively obtain from news sources, the trial, etc. The "Funny smelling" experience of Erin wasn't witnessed, so I have doubts about the truth of that statement.

I think the over purchasing of pastry, mushrooms, etc is quite the smoking gun too actually. Anyone who cooks knows that a pasty sized beef wellington would only use 1/2 a sheet of puff pastry at most, IMO. The fact she only served 5 (and possibly made six) would only equal 3 sheets of pastry. Even if you consider that she might have messed up a few sheets, we are still only using 1 packet of puff pastry. Why the need for the multiple other purchases?

I believe Erin's comment "funny smelling mushrooms" was made by the public health witness or possibly the child services witness.

Yes agreed, I would also add the over purchasing of the meal supplies to the smoking guns list.

 

[Lisa4]

That's a great list

Great list.

I would add to the Pre-Lunch smoking guns that she stated these dried mushrooms were "funny smelling" and didn't suit a previous carbonara dish so she chose to put them into an eleborate and expensive meal like Beef Wellington. Together with the other things on your list and the fact that she had bought so many mushrooms from Woolies already, it is a smoking gun to me.

YES. WHY even keep those "funny-smelling" dried mushrooms from a mysterious Asian shop you can't remember, in a packet with a strange handwritten label?

 

[Detechtive]

She's stingy with others maybe. But not where it serves herself.

Pure speculation...

If she is indeed stingy, which I believe she may be, (IMO), maybe she was celebrating and splurging that night because she found death caps? Simon was hospitalised very shortly thereafter.

Besides, the 'stingy' people I know, usually have areas they splurge. For example, I know someone who won't buy anything not on sale (groceries, clothing, etc) and hardly has any furniture in their (massive) home, they ask people who come over for bbq's to bring their own meat, salad, and chairs but the family have 4 European holidays a year.

Flying lessons are expensive. Maybe she had her areas of splashing out and others where she was very frugal?

 

[MsMarple]

Key Event
2m ago

Erin Patterson's Facebook messages re-examined​

By Judd Boaz​

Colin Mandy brings up Facebook messages sent between Erin Patterson and her friends in a private chat group.

The prosecution previously exhibited the messages to the court, reflecting Erin's frustration with her in-laws and her estranged husband.

Mr Mandy reads out messages from other participants in the chat, which were not read by the prosecution, with some of her Facebook friends referring to the Pattersons as "morons".

He says that many of Erin's messages came in the context of wider dicussions.

The jury has now stepped out for a break.

 

[Yh5r]

Pure speculation...

If she is indeed stingy, which I believe she may be, (IMO), maybe she was celebrating and splurging that night because she found death caps? Simon was hospitalised very shortly thereafter.

Besides, the 'stingy' people I know, usually have areas they splurge. For example, I know someone who won't buy anything not on sale (groceries, clothing, etc) and hardly has any furniture in their (massive) home, they ask people who come over for bbq's to bring their own meat, salad, and chairs but the family have 4 European holidays a year.

Flying lessons are expensive. Maybe she had her areas of splashing out and others where she was very frugal?

Agreed. Everyone has their own priorities in how they spend their money. But I don't see how this is relevant to the case.

 

[katydid23]

If the DNA or fingerprints places the perpetrator at the scene of a violent crime, then this would be direct evidence, not just circumstantial.

Learn more

Yes, DNA evidence is considered circumstantial evidence. While DNA can strongly link a person to a crime scene or a specific object, it doesn't directly prove guilt. Circumstantial evidence suggests a fact through inference, requiring the jury to draw conclusions about the defendant's involvement.

Here's why DNA is considered circumstantial:

• It points to a connection, not direct proof:
  .
  DNA analysis can establish a link between a person and a crime scene, a victim, or a weapon, but it doesn't automatically
  
  

 

[Detechtive]

Key Event
2m ago

Erin Patterson's Facebook messages re-examined​

By Judd Boaz​

Colin Mandy brings up Facebook messages sent between Erin Patterson and her friends in a private chat group.

The prosecution previously exhibited the messages to the court, reflecting Erin's frustration with her in-laws and her estranged husband.

Mr Mandy reads out messages from other participants in the chat, which were not read by the prosecution, with some of her Facebook friends referring to the Pattersons as "morons".

He says that many of Erin's messages came in the context of wider dicussions.

The jury has now stepped out for a break.

I did wonder about this and how influential her 'friends' were in this whole saga - just like when you see people becoming radicalised in their little internet bubbles / echo chambers. I wondered whether they were bolstering or encouraging Erin's disdain for the family. What awful people.

I get that in-laws can be difficult, but I would be so pleased to have lovely in-laws like Erin appears to have had. I don't understand how they could be called "morons" by people who didn't know them.

 

[katydid23]

Erin Patterson murder trial day 22 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

Detective asked about travel times between Leongatha and locations where death cap mushrooms sighted

Mandy says Eppingstall gave evidence about travel distances and times between Leongatha and Outtrim, and Leongatha and Loch.

The court previously heard that sightings of death cap mushrooms in Outtrim and Loch had been posted on the citizen science website iNaturalist in the months before the lunch.

Mandy asks if travel time can vary depending on the route. Eppingstall agrees.

Eppingstall cross-examined about phone records

Mandy asks Eppingstall about the call charge records, previously shown to the jury, and if the time reflected for a changed IMEI number [International Mobile Equipment Identity, used to identify phone handsets] is accurate.

Eppingstall says he believed the time on the record is accurate. He agrees telecommunications expert Dr Matthew Sorell, who gave evidence earlier in the trial, was not asked about this.

Detective asked about conversation with fungi expert

Eppingstall recalls the conversation with mycologist Dr Thomas May who said he had posted the sighting of death cap mushrooms on the citizen science website iNaturalist.

Eppingstall says May told him he had posted about spotting the fungi in Outtrim.

Eppingstall says he then identified that Christine McKenzie, a retired pharmacist, had made a post about death cap mushrooms. He then asked her to make a formal statement.

iNaturalist webpage shown to jury in screenshots may have changed since 2022, court hears

Mandy takes Eppingstall to a screenshot from December 2024 of the iNaturalist website that was shown to the jury on Wednesday.

Under questioning by Mandy, Eppingstall agrees the website would have looked different in 2022.

The court previously heard Eppingstall took screenshots of the webpages which originated from URLs from May 2022 found on a computer seized from Patterson’s house.

Eppingstall agrees there is no evidence the landing page shown in the screenshot was the same in 2022.

 

[katydid23]

Erin Patterson murder trial day 22 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

Patterson was ‘always accompanied’ during police search of her home, court hears

Mandy turns to question Eppingstall about the search police conducted of Patterson’s Leongatha home on 5 August 2023.

Eppingstall agrees Patterson was not warned about the visit.

He says he was the officer with Patterson for the majority of the search. Eppingstall says when he needed to step away, another officer would be with Patterson.

Eppingstall says Patterson was “always accompanied” but was able to walk around during the search. He says Patterson retained a mobile phone with her during the search and had arrangements to make for her children.

Patterson was left alone in a room to call a lawyer, the court hears.

Detective disputes defence assertion ‘Phone A’ visible in photo from Patterson’s home

Mandy says there were some devices police did not seize during the search of Patterson’s Leongatha house.

Eppingstall on Wednesday said there were three phones that police believed Patterson used – two Samsungs and a Nokia. He said that one of the Samsungs, referred to as “Phone A”, had never been recovered.

Eppingstall says a Nokia phone, used in the days after the search, was not seized by police.

Mandy shows Eppingstall a photo from the search which shows a corner lounge in Patterson’s home.

He says a black object is the mobile phone, dubbed “Phone A”, that Eppingstall said police never located.

Eppingstall says he does not accept this. He says if it were a phone, “I think we would have found it”.

Defence lawyer says boy seen on Subway CCTV is not Patterson’s son

Mandy turns to CCTV footage of Patterson dropping her son at Subway in Leongatha on the evening of the lunch. The footage was played earlier in the trial.

Mandy says this is not Patterson’s son who is seen in the footage. He shows the jury a photo of Patterson’s son, who cannot be named for legal reasons. Patterson’s son is with his grandfather, Don, in the photo.

He then shows a still from the CCTV image which he says is not Patterson’s son.

“That is not [Patterson’s son],” Mandy says.

Eppingstall says he believes it is Patterson’s son and says it is a “matter for the jury”.

 

[MsMarple]

Key Event
2m ago

More on those Facebook messages​

By Kristian Silva​

To add some further context, the court was shown what appears to be a more comprehensive account of the Facebook conversation Erin Patterson allegedly had with her Facebook friends in December 2022.

This was the same exchange we heard about earlier in the trial, where a person using the Erin ErinErin account labelled Simon Patterson a "deadbeat" and said, "this family I swear to f***ing god".

We now saw some of the replies in the chat, namely from a "Jenny Hay" account. Jenny Hay was also a witness earlier in this trial.

In the messages, Jenny labels Simon Patterson "pathetic" and a "s*** dad".

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Proceedings are slow to start today

By Mikaela Ortolan

There's some legal delays to today's evidence getting underway.

We'll be ready to go once the jury's back in, but while we wait, here are a few things we learned yesterday:

1.LSC Eppingstall told the court a SIM card was swapped from one phone to a Nokia mobile phone during a police search of Erin's home in August 2023.
2.Erin told Facebook friends she purchased a new phone when hers was broken and had learnt about doing a "hard reboot".
3.Text messages sent in the weeks before the lunch were shown to the court. In them, Erin told her mother-in-law, Gail Patterson, that she had a needle biopsy taken of a lump and needed an MRI. LSC Eppingstall says his investigation found no evidence of either of these happening.
4.Erin's purchase history and Woolworths Rewards card showed in the week before the lunch there had been purchases of mushroom slices, puff pastry, frozen filo pastry among other items from the supermarket giant.
5.During cross-examination the defence introduced earlier medical records from 2021 where Erin raised concerns about ovarian cancer and the initial results, according to medical notes, were "all fine".

Defence cross-examines police witness in Erin Patterson trial — as it happened

Erin Patterson is accused of murdering three of her relatives by serving them a beef Wellington lunch which contained death cap mushrooms. Follow the trial live.

www.abc.net.au

I'd still like to know what she used the 1 kg mushrooms that she purchase on the 23rd July for? It doesn't sound as if her kids were keen on mushrooms.

 

[MsMarple]

Key Event
1m ago

We return from break​

By Judd Boaz​

Colin Mandy SC is continuing to read out Facebook messages sent between Erin Patterson and her friends.

The messages are supportive of Erin, and address her relationship with Simon Patterson.

"Hopefully he will have to pay up soon," one message reads.

Mr Mandy puts it to LSC Eppingstall that the chat became an outlet for the participants.

"This was a chat where a number of the participants were talking like this, that is, venting to each other?" Mr Mandy suggests.

"Yes that's fair to say, sir," LSC Eppingstall says.

 

[MrJ]

Key Event
2m ago

More on those Facebook messages​

By Kristian Silva​

To add some further context, the court was shown what appears to be a more comprehensive account of the Facebook conversation Erin Patterson allegedly had with her Facebook friends in December 2022.

This was the same exchange we heard about earlier in the trial, where a person using the Erin ErinErin account labelled Simon Patterson a "deadbeat" and said, "this family I swear to *ing god".

We now saw some of the replies in the chat, namely from a "Jenny Hay" account. Jenny Hay was also a witness earlier in this trial.

In the messages, Jenny labels Simon Patterson "pathetic" and a "s*** dad".

Jeez. that’s a bit brutal towards SP.