Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #14 *Arrest*

[Megnut]

Leftover beef. I can see referring to beef as left over if I bought ten, used eight in various recipes and still had two left over.

But not while simultaneously representing that they were already prepared, had ingredients scraped off and I was serving them anew.

So... did she mean beef filets that were left over?

Did she mean actual lunch leftovers, which is surely implied by 'scraping off mushrooms'?

Did she have additional pre-made BWs (say from a test batch) that were in fact left over and would have mushrooms, in need of scraping?

Obfuscation is real. A technique leaving your audience unable to know what to believe.

JMO

 

[CityKid]

Phone A 'may have been thrown out'​

Patterson said three computer devices had been in her house during the first police search on August 5.
She said two laptops were in use on November 2 when police conducted another search of the house.
'I don't know where it (phone A) was (on November 2),' she said.
Patterson said Phone A may have gone into a skip 'along with a lot of other broken stuff' in September 2023.
Patterson told the jury she got a skip once a year to do a 'clean out of the house and garage'.

Why Patterson switched back to old SIM​

Patterson was asked why she changed back to her old number despite previously saying she changed the SIM because of concerns about her security and Simon.
'As of Sunday evening when child protection became more involved it became clear Simon would need to contact me in regards to arrangements for the children,' Patterson said.


Daily Mail

BBM. Yet she moved a container of cat-pee-smelling dried mushrooms from house to house. I'm sure she's got a record of the annual skip rental, though.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Imaging the perspective of the people from hospital - the people there to HELP in A&E, critical wards: Nurses, Drs, (hospital) social worker, (then police, dept health.). They would have suspected her of dishonesty immediately.

The all have training for safeguarding (child abuse, DV, self harm, crime) and would have been on high alert immediately on interacting with EP. Just because a patient says it’s one thing, hospital staff are, based on training & experience, considering alternatives.

Ive seen in A&E when a person presents and tells a story and the staff takes steps to rule out alternative causes of the injury or get child separate from parent, partners separate or get SW or LE involved.

It’s what they deal with every day. They immediately knew EP was sus

 

[Montrealaise]

Did she actually call them liars? Or did she just disagree with what they said?

She didn't actually say they were liars, but she repeatedly contradicted their version of facts and said that what they related wasn't true or never happened, which implies that her kids either have the worst memory in the world or they are liars.

 

[Megnut]

If SP had also ingested the DC toxin, would he have gotten himself to the ER at first sign (because of prior experience) and been able to relay the lunch conversation, the seating arrangements and plating...

Would he have been alert enough to direct everyone to the hospital immediately?

It's up the jury to decide guilt in this case, but I'm focused right now on the general theory of poisoning by DC, based on the little bit I've learned so far, from this case.

It seems that the body rids itself of the meal quite efficiently. Violently actually. Like a colonospy prep on steroids.

But of course, the toxin itself, goes straightaway to the bloodstream and organs. But from there, after 48 hours, it's no longer detectable in the system, just the deadly effect on organs persists.

So... theoretically, if 100 people in 100 different homes, had been together and eaten the same meal which contained DC mushrooms, two days later, the meal itself would be long flushed away, the organs would be in failure and there'd be no toxin detectable. Do I have that right? So, in theory, DC has the capacity to be an invisible murder weapon.

Except for one flaw. Before those 100 people might die and take the secret to the grave, they're not so unwell that they can't talk, can't get themselves to the ER, can't describe what they ate.... so, again still in theory, its that 48 hour window that seems key, because if during it, even one person can direct the hospital to the potential source of the illness, now the hospital has a direction to pursue. If 'mushrooms' come up, they start looking for mushroom poisoning before it disappears from detection.

If, in this case, deadly DCs were used, even accidentally, in say a rhubarb pie, would the hospital ever searched for and identified the DC toxin in time? Or just the severe organ damage, cause unknown?

In theory, the perfect crime. (DC toxin delivered via a nonmushroom meal, resulting in fatalities, with the toxin undetectable after 48 hours.) Which isn't what happened here.

JMO

 

[CityKid]

A Tale of Three Meat Pastries: She made a beef Wellington in the form of Cornish pasties and she's getting caught out for telling porkies!

 

[Monstradamus]

If SP had also ingested the DC toxin, would he have gotten himself to the ER at first sign (because of prior experience) and been able to relay the lunch conversation, the seating arrangements and plating...

Would he have been alert enough to direct everyone to the hospital immediately?

It's up the jury to decide guilt in this case, but I'm focused right now on the general theory of poisoning by DC, based on the little bit I've learned so far, from this case.

It seems that the body rids itself of the meal quite efficiently. Violently actually. Like a colonospy prep on steroids.

But of course, the toxin itself, goes straightaway to the bloodstream and organs. But from there, after 48 hours, it's no longer detectable in the system, just the deadly effect on organs persists.

So... theoretically, if 100 people in 100 different homes, had been together and eaten the same meal which contained DC mushrooms, two days later, the meal itself would be long flushed away, the organs would be in failure and there'd be no toxin detectable. Do I have that right? So, in theory, DC has the capacity to be an invisible murder weapon.

Except for one flaw. Before those 100 people might die and take the secret to the grave, they're not so unwell that they can't talk, can't get themselves to the ER, can't describe what they ate.... so, again still in theory, its that 48 hour window that seems key, because if during it, even one person can direct the hospital to the potential source of the illness, now the hospital has a direction to pursue. If 'mushrooms' come up, they start looking for mushroom poisoning before it disappears from detection.

If, in this case, deadly DCs were used, even accidentally, in say a rhubarb pie, would the hospital ever searched for and identified the DC toxin in time? Or just the severe organ damage, cause unknown?

In theory, the perfect crime. (DC toxin delivered via a nonmushroom meal, resulting in fatalities, with the toxin undetectable after 48 hours.) Which isn't what happened here.

JMO

A Beef Wellington is the perfect meal to hide a poisonous, pungent smelling mushroom. At least she got that part right. IMO.

 

[Megnut]

A Beef Wellington is the perfect meal to hide a poisonous, pungent smelling mushroom. At least she got that part right. IMO.

Except it alerted medical staff to mushrooms from the get go.

As it was, by the time a couple victims were tested for the toxin, it was already undetectable iirc.

Would a nonmushroom meal have delayed testing to the level of nondetection in all the victims? Maybe.

JMO

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I suggest to Erin she should have -

Shopped at all the Asian food shops for months and months, bought loads of different varieties of mushroom and mixed some put them in Tupperware boxes. Give LE a cacophony of mixed mushrooms to test and loads of receipts from all the Waverleys and other suburbs.

Better yet, EP stores in glass recycled jars of different sizes and the shelf accidentally breaks and they all gets mixed on floor with broken glass which she puts in the bin in a paper bag with lunch leftovers on top. One button mushroom soaked in DC marinade chucked in see if they find the Wally.

(EP had dried one batch of DC and chucked the dehydrator behind the subway a year prior. )

I also like the idea of no mushrooms in food at all and using the powder in a lasagne or grilled fish.

 

[Kemug]

It must of been such a shock to find out that she'd been arrested on 3 charges of murder and 1 attempted murder. What's that saying? "Inside every person you know is a person you don't know."...

Or put more simply "Everybody wears a mask." I think that's true. But I wouldn't be all that bothered if someone pulled mine off - and I certainly wouldn't be arrested!

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I wonder exactly what EP was planning to do if SP had attended and all five guests had died.

If SP had attended he would have certainly passed away as he's already so vulnerable.

If SP hadn't alerted everyone to the concept of poisoning then all four of them would have certainly passed away.

Five dead people all passed away at the same time, that's what would have been the result of Plan A.

I still wonder if EP was hoping they'd be recorded as Covid deaths as a result of the pandemic?

JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Anyhow what on earth were her future plans? To deprive her children of their father and their nearest most warm and kind caring relatives? Then she would have total control over her children with no interference? Then what? What would it have all been for?

 

[Kemug]

She does - absolutely.

But she's not feeling as bad as all the (alleged) victims.

 

[ellyvantelli]

What if the in-laws were the type to never go to the doctor. Never complain, and what if Erin didn’t anticipate the violence of the symptoms?

Even when you google the symptoms it just indicates symptoms like a food bug, but it doesn’t explain the severity - like vomiting 30 times in one night.

If it wasn’t for Simon, none of the 4 would have gone to hospital. He insisted.

Does that change your theory? If so I’d love to hear it. Love your logic in this case.

BBM
Hypothetically…

What if bad steak inadvertently exacerbated the initial DC symptoms?

A short time later, the jury saw, Ms Atkinson sent another message with a follow up question about when she purchased ingredients for the lunch.
“Hi Sally, I’m not sure exactly what time of day,” Ms Patterson responded.
“I went a few times last week and I know I got some of the ingredients on maybe Wednesday or Thursday (I know I bought some discounted eye fillet steaks one time on one of those two days) and then I went back on either Thursday or Friday and bought a couple more but they weren’t discounted just normal price.”
BBM

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/erin-patterson-online-searches-probed-in-mushroom-murder-trial/news-story/f17281bac800ec26b8768740e3236c1f

The ‘discounted’ steaks were purchased on the Thursday then not eaten until the Saturday/Sunday. Discounted can often mean at or very close to safe 'use by' date.

Could simple food poisoning have made the initial symptoms more intense or longer lasting, hence creating the situation where medical intervention was sought earlier than Erin might have anticipated, & before any other meals consumed which could have muddied the trail?

JMOO

 

[Megnut]

If all the guests died... of indeterminate food poisoning, would the dots have been connected to a shared lunch two days prior? Would EP have said she served BW or beef with potatoes and green beans?

There seems to be a disconnect between the 48 hours after which DC toxin can no longer be detected and the 48 hours during which luncheoners can still talk and share information.

A great deal of evidence in this case came from Ian.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

BBM
Hypothetically…

What if bad steak inadvertently exacerbated the initial DC symptoms?

A short time later, the jury saw, Ms Atkinson sent another message with a follow up question about when she purchased ingredients for the lunch.
“Hi Sally, I’m not sure exactly what time of day,” Ms Patterson responded.
“I went a few times last week and I know I got some of the ingredients on maybe Wednesday or Thursday (I know I bought some discounted eye fillet steaks one time on one of those two days) and then I went back on either Thursday or Friday and bought a couple more but they weren’t discounted just normal price.”
BBM

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/erin-patterson-online-searches-probed-in-mushroom-murder-trial/news-story/f17281bac800ec26b8768740e3236c1f

The ‘discounted’ steaks were purchased on the Thursday then not eaten until the Saturday/Sunday. Discounted can often mean at or very close to safe 'use by' date.

Could simple food poisoning have made the initial symptoms more intense or longer lasting, hence creating the situation where medical intervention was sought earlier than Erin might have anticipated, & before any other meals consumed which could have muddied the trail?

JMOO

Eewwwwww

Forget the DC mushrooms for a second.

Truth in advertising!!!!!! If I'm having lunch at someone's house, I would want to know that the filet I'm being served was already discounted on Wednesday and it's being served to me on Saturday. I'm out!!!

Thrifty EP, did she buy day-old filets, freeze them, to extend their life a bit, then thaw and serve them?

Dehydrated mushrooms in brownies.

That kitchen should be shut down.

JMO

 

[MaxDecimus13]

This is what I think went wrong for Erin.

I don’t think she anticipated that the guests would die (or nearly die) in a way that alerted medical staff. Maybe she’d read something that instead said that people would be unwell and die but the course of illness and then death would be insidious and no cause would be attributed. Maybe she thought they’d die at home but that no one would realise there’d been a unifying lunch, given Ian was supposed to die and Simon was also supposed to be there. Maybe she thought they’d die more slowly.

Instead:

Simon didn’t go and instead took his parents and then Gail and Ian to hospital urgently. I wonder if he was spurred into action by his own mysterious illnesses after Erin fed him - maybe something “clicked” for him, even subconsciously.

At hospital tests for deterioration/cell death have advanced with the use of a blood lactate test. This was normal with the guests on arrival, then increased, suggesting there was progressive organ damage along with the signs of liver damage.

A switched on infectious diseases trainee working on call realised that this clinical course didn’t fit with food poisoning and called toxicology and death cap poisoning was considered.

Communication between medical providers meant everyone was then on the same page.

Erin around this time maybe also realises there is a new toxin test for death caps.

And then she panics - wiping phones, lying to everyone, possibly disposing of evidence (subway trip with son, toilets at service station) and trying to dispose of evidence (dehydrator).

This is really good, and is definitely a real possibility if she is guilty.

In this scenario, the DC identification was the key that then potentially explains a lot of the seemingly ill-thought through reactions afterwards.

Consider without it it would have been a real mystery and mushrooms would have been only one possibility. As a result, there wouldn't have been the real focus on where the mushrooms came from and maybe EP was expecting that her explanation would have been automatically believed and then ruled out.

Depending on when she first mentioned the Asian grocer, she might have considered that even if mushrooms had been suspected a mystery illness would have been pinpointed to be likely coming from there.

If, as I suspect, she didn't expect the speed or the severity, there could have been all sorts of other possibilities including the cakes or the meat that would have significant muddied the waters.

It was only the specificity of the DC identification that narrowed the search and pointed it firmly in her direction.

 

[Kemug]

Ms Patterson's ex-partner Simon Patterson has now claimed that “he suspected he had been poisoned by Erin", a source told the Herald Sun. “There were times he had felt … a bit off and it often coincided with when he spent time with her.”

RSBM
That sounds like a really good way to get your ex to come back!

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Eewwwwww

Forget the DC mushrooms for a second.

Truth in advertising!!!!!! If I'm having lunch at someone's house, I would want to know that the filet I'm being served was already discounted on Wednesday and it's being served to me on Saturday. I'm out!!!

Thrifty EP, did she buy day-old filets, freeze them, to extend their life a bit, then thaw and serve them?

Dehydrated mushrooms in brownies.

That kitchen should be shut down.

JMO

If we're being really suspicious, did she consider that this would account for why people thought they were ill initially?

 

[MaxDecimus13]

If all the guests died... of indeterminate food poisoning, would the dots have been connected to a shared lunch two days prior? Would EP have said she served BW or beef with potatoes and green beans?

There seems to be a disconnect between the 48 hours after which DC toxin can no longer be detected and the 48 hours during which luncheoners can still talk and share information.

A great deal of evidence in this case came from Ian.

JMO

I still think regardless that if all 4 had died, it would have been pretty easy to identify the shared meal at the Patterson's house as the likely culprit.

Plenty of people will have known about it, none more so than Simon.