Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #8 *Arrest*

[MsMarple]

I'd give it a rinse before you get started!

Been reading up on dehydrators and they seem to be a good investment for certain foods. We’re thinking of getting one after we move to dry chili peppers as it’s a better system than oven drying.

It’s all so stupid. Erin could have easily disclosed to LE that she foraged the mushrooms and dried them then it’s likely the fatal lunch would have gone down as yet another misadventure due to mistaken identity.
JMO

 

[JLZ]

The dumbest decision was probably lying about where she got the mushrooms - saying she bought them in food stores (extremely unlikely, since food stores get theirs from mushroom farms). She should have anticipated that the police would immediately check to see if anyone else had gotten sick from mushroom poisoning and if so, where they got them. If she had admitted that she had foraged for them and made a terrible mistake - well, it happens, every year some people mistakenly pick poisonous wild mushrooms thinking they were edible. The lie really put the spotlight on her credibility (or lack thereof)

Perhaps foraging was to be her story but in the event she lost courage and lied.

 

[katydid23]

Let me rephrase this, as it was rhetorical, directed at Erin, who isn't answering --

Her attorney conceded it was a lie, yes? But also tried to trap Simon into don't he didn't not hear it from a guest...

So... if Erin didn’t tell anyone she had cancer, what medical thing did she tell them? (And why would one guest invent cancer?) If it wasn't cancer, what is her attorney suggesting is the reason Erin suddenly wanted to host a luncheon? At which all the guests, and only the guests, just happened to ingest the same fatal toxin.

Simon did live to tell the tale. About the invite, about the medical news she was going to share.

I'm just asking the questions the Defense is dodging.

JMO

I think what the defense was trying to get Simon to say was that his Dad said something about Erin talking about cancer---but not necessarily that she HAD cancer. Could it have been that she was worried she had cancer, or was being tested for cancer, etc. ...

That way she was not really lying and Simon was just misunderstanding what Don was trying to say, etc.

I guess it all comes down to Ian's testimony. I hope he has clear memories of the lunch meeting. Sometimes a severe illness wipes out some memory banks.

 

[katydid23]

My prediction is that the defence are going to go with the suggestion that she only told them she *might* have cancer, and that he misunderstood or misheard. If she was having a lump biopsied or some other tests, they could spin this as “cancer was a possibility and she wanted to keep them informed”.

But they only get to state this version outright if they put Erin on the stand, which I think is unlikely. Otherwise it will just be through implication, eg the questioning of S asking if there may have been a misunderstanding etc, and any medical testimony they might have secured.

I agree---I just posted the same thought, about them trying to spin it as 'she just worried she might have cancer, was being tested, etc'

I think Ian's testimony is the key to that question.

 

[Bats]

Yes, they did concede that in the OS.

But then during the cross of Simon, they tried to get him to admit that Don may have just said she was being tested for cancer---not that she actually had cancer. So I thought that was interesting.

If they can get the jury to believe she was just expressing fears she MIGHT have cancer, then that's a win for defence team. IMO

I didn't take it the way you have but perhaps I'm wrong. I took it that the defence were, in a tricky sort of way, getting him to reconfirm what he heard. Making certain he heard correctly from his dad that she said she was diagnosed with cancer.

They'll use that later when they present their closing argument

MOO

He asks whether it was possible Simon misheard his father, when learning about Erin's admission that she was diagnosed with cancer.

Mr Mandy says given Don's poor condition and the short nature of their conversation, whether it would be possible that he misremembered what had been relayed.

Mr Patterson is adamant that his father relayed Erin's diagnosis of cancer to him.

"The possibility was more about the treatment than the diagnosis," he says.

"[Her diagnosis] wasn't in doubt."

Mr Mandy again asks if it's possible that Mr Patterson misunderstood his father, which receives a sharp reply

 

[MsMarple]

I think we’re looking at a sum of the parts being greater than the whole scenario.

 

[whitelilac]

I agree---I just posted the same thought, about them trying to spin it as 'she just worried she might have cancer, was being tested, etc'

I think Ian's testimony is the key to that question.

Whether or not the question is answered to the defense's benefit, I don't think it will make a difference. There are far too many other lies and behaviors on her part that are incriminating as it is.

 

[Old Soul]

Perhaps foraging was to be her story but in the event she lost courage and lied.

And she might have got away with a foraging mistake….. but instead she doubled down on the lie about the source of the mushrooms with her revised statement.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/erin-patterson-gives-new-account-of-deadly-meal-that-killed-three-in-suspected-mushroom-poisoning/news-story/f258a1c0bb9756bfa16d58a60e34f058

In my opinion she had every opportunity to admit to foraging the mushrooms but chose instead to misdirect the investigators and deflect blame to the “Asian grocery stores.”

The “I panicked and lied” story doesn’t wash with me.
It will be interesting to learn about her digital trail, maybe there will be some interesting internet searches that suggest planning and premeditation?

 

[JLZ]

I didn't take it the way you have but perhaps I'm wrong. I took it that the defence were, in a tricky sort of way, getting him to reconfirm what he heard. Making certain he heard correctly from his dad that she said she was diagnosed with cancer.

They'll use that later when they present their closing argument

MOO

He asks whether it was possible Simon misheard his father, when learning about Erin's admission that she was diagnosed with cancer.

Mr Mandy says given Don's poor condition and the short nature of their conversation, whether it would be possible that he misremembered what had been relayed.

Mr Patterson is adamant that his father relayed Erin's diagnosis of cancer to him.

"The possibility was more about the treatment than the diagnosis," he says.

"[Her diagnosis] wasn't in doubt."

Mr Mandy again asks if it's possible that Mr Patterson misunderstood his father, which receives a sharp reply

You'll have to explain, please, how it will benefit the defence that
Simon definitely heard his father say that Erin claimed to have cancer?

Do you mean that because Simon didn't ask Erin about her cancer, it's arguably of little significance that Erin didn't ask how his family were doing?

I think Mandy is setting up to say that Simon or possibly Don got it wrong about what Erin said about her health condition--but he has to have put the possibility to Simon to to be allowed to argue that. So it would be better if Simon admitted to some uncertainty, but he can cope with that; what's most important is that he's raised the issue with the witness.

 

[JLZ]

And she might have got away with a foraging mistake….. but instead she doubled down on the lie about the source of the mushrooms with her revised statement.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/breaking-news/erin-patterson-gives-new-account-of-deadly-meal-that-killed-three-in-suspected-mushroom-poisoning/news-story/f258a1c0bb9756bfa16d58a60e34f058

In my opinion she had every opportunity to admit to foraging the mushrooms but chose instead to misdirect the investigators and deflect blame to the “Asian grocery stores.”

The “I panicked and lied” story doesn’t wash with me.
It will be interesting to learn about her digital trail, maybe there will be some interesting internet searches that suggest planning and premeditation?

Well, I think she panicked and lied all right, but that doesn't mean she didn't intentionally kill them.

 

[Bats]

You'll have to explain, please, how it will benefit the defence that
Simon definitely heard his father say that Erin claimed to have cancer?

Do you mean that because Simon didn't ask Erin about her cancer, it's arguably of little significance that Erin didn't ask how his family were doing?

I think Mandy is setting up to say that Simon or possibly Don got it wrong about what Erin said about her health condition--but he has to have put the possibility to Simon to to be allowed to argue that. So it would be better if Simon admitted to some uncertainty, but he can cope with that; what's most important is that he's raised the issue with the witness.

Well, we'll have to see how the defence use it...

I think Ian will probably confirm that Erin told them all about the cancer diagnosis. And I don't think the defence are disputing she's lied, either way....

 

[Megnut]

Weird strategy. If Erin didn't invite everyone over to tell them about the cancer she doesn't have, what was the purpose of the lunch? Mushrooms? I don't know that the defense wants to lead with that.

They'd maybe be better off saying she was so worried about having cancer, thinking she did have it.

Because without that, why did she invite them??????

 

[LadyL]

And honestly, who does that? Hosts a luncheon to announce one's cancer diagnosis? (Especially when they don't have cancer, but that's beside my point.) Even the faux reason, for help in how to tell the children. (Indeed, how do you tell young children you have a cancer, um, when you don't?)

Dear Esteemed Invitees, I know I snubbed you for your 70th birthday party but I cordially invite you to my party where I've prepared an elaborate meal with mystery ingredients. Once I have you gathered, we can all focus on me. I will begin with a dramatic reading of WebMD, next we will dialogue about me and how we can mitigate the heaviness of my burden (having to bear the weight of my imaginary cancer) and close with your adoration, for how well I'm handling (not) having cancer, and prayers to carry me through (also not having cancer).

You can't imagine how hard it is.

JMO

 

[JLZ]

Well, we'll have to see how the defence use it...

I think Ian will probably confirm that Erin told them all about the cancer diagnosis. And I don't think the defence are disputing she's lied, either way....

Well, I'm intrigued. --She thought she had cancer and that's why she made mistakes in her ingredient selection?

 

[Bats]

Weird strategy. If Erin didn't invite everyone over to tell them about the cancer she doesn't have, what was the purpose of the lunch? Mushrooms? I don't know thst the defense wants to lead with that.

They'd maybe be better off saying she was so worried about having cancer, thinking she did have it.

Because without that, why did she invite them??????

Scenario #1...
There was no other reason than to tell them about the cancer diagnosis and to ask them about how she should tell the kids.
Granted, the cancer diagnosis was a lie but you kind of have to run with it. For all anyone knows, she's got cancer. Maybe she even thought she had cancer without it being diagnosed. (Sometimes I get a cut on the finger and think it could be cancer)

Scenario #2
Invites them over to poison them all.

 

[Kemug]

Been reading up on dehydrators and they seem to be a good investment for certain foods. We’re thinking of getting one after we move to dry chili peppers as it’s a better system than oven drying.

It’s all so stupid. Erin could have easily disclosed to LE that she foraged the mushrooms and dried them then it’s likely the fatal lunch would have gone down as yet another misadventure due to mistaken identity.
JMO

"Too smart for her own good" is a phrase that springs to mind. "Also pride goeth before a fall". Any more?

 

[JLZ]

"Too smart for her own good" is a phrase that springs to mind. "Also pride goeth before a fall". Any more?

Head in the sand.

 

[LadyL]

Yes, "nightshades" was mentioned but the only information I can find is very vague.
It was not a direct quote from Simon himself, the person was referred to as "a source"

"Simon suspected he had been poisoned by Erin," a source told The Herald Sun.
"There were times he had felt... a bit off and it coincided when he spent time with her."
That source also suggested the attempted poisoning was through nightshade plants, which includes vegetables such as tomatoes, capsicums and eggplants.

Note that the newspaper appears to have suggested "nightshades plants" (tomatoes/potatoes etc) but the source may have been referencing something like Deadly Nightshades (Atropa Belladonna) which is found in parts of Australia and has been used throughout history as a poison.
It's not like you poison people with tomatoes.

thank you I was confused about that

 

[Megnut]

Scenario #1...
There was no other reason than to tell them about the cancer diagnosis and to ask them about how she should tell the kids.
Granted, the cancer diagnosis was a lie but you kind of have to run with it. For all anyone knows, she's got cancer. Maybe she even thought she had cancer without it being diagnosed. (Sometimes I get a cut on the finger and think it could be cancer)

Scenario #2
Invites them over to poison them all.

The One Time she's done this, toiled over BW (so laborious it clouded her memory of foraging), to host a luncheon to tell four adults she's worried she might have cancer?

What story is the Defense going to run with? (Or maybe none. Maybe they won't put on a defense.)

She just really wanted to host all of a sudden? For funsies?

 

[LadyL]

Well - unless they have a nightshade allergy.

Given the vague source for this claim I think it’s very possible that SP was attributing his sickness to this - a suspected allergy, or perhaps even a known allergy, and a suspected accidental ingestion of a nightshade vegetable. They can be very hard to avoid when eating processed food or in restaurants etc.

If this was his working theory he would not have suspected poisoning and assumed a medical issue. But because of the whole ‘deadly nightshades’ mythos, it makes a great sensational quote for the tabloid press after the murders.

I suspect this is a red herring and, if he was poisoned, it was with something unrelated to nightshades entirely.

and now I'm confused again
is nightshade a bush with purple coloured berries?
and potatoes, tomatoes etc. are vegetables from the same family?