CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #17

[sreshowtime]

Well....if we are throwing out some ideas, I will bite-
Mr H could have been placed in the garage for all we know...not like the CL was going to be messing/cleaning out there I don't suppose?
And it really isn't known what time that last person really left...what if someone (like after they got off work , if they worked) swung over to help do some loading before they left? And hmm, was it dark there when the LE did the welfare check and didn't someone come over with a key???
( and WHY that person didn't just go on in there to begin with, since everyone was SO worried is beyond me)

 

[zwiebel]

Off the top of my head, it was 9.21pm when police arrived that night for the welfare check. A local could tell us, but I think it would have been dark by then in CA.

Grandson, with the key, met them on the driveway, and then went into the house with police. I would find it a little odd that any family member would wait outside, rather than going into check Bob was okay. But I find it especially odd as grandson was a bit of an action man - a pilot, a karate expert and trained as an emergency medical worker, apparently.

I admit I have no idea what emergency training in OC entails - but I can't believe it teaches people to stand back and wait for others in a possible emergency.

 

[zwiebel]

I am just linking this post from the UID forum, as it provides a good description of the area where the human remains were found near the Montebello bike trail and I have been trying to see if there are any updates.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Montebello, Human Remains Aside Bike Trail, Jul'13

Good photos of the location here:
http://photos.sgvtribune.com/2013/0...-montebello-near-hiking-area-of-whittier-dam/

I found comments under an article suggesting this missing person as a possible:
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-02-18/news/ga-189_1_rene-yanez

And somebody commented there was a case number of 20135351. I can't find anything in Namus or the LA Coroner's office though, but the LA Coroner's office never works well for me. Has anyone else seen /heard about any updates? As Bob is in Namus, I am trusting that any DNA results will be cross-checked with him automatically.

There is also yet another case in OC with a male found Aug 9 by Garden Grove LE, but absolutely no other details listed. It's very frustrating and worrying, but I guess if there is any possibility it is Bob, we will find out eventually.
http://ws.ocsd.org/EServices/PressReleases_Default.aspx

 

[zwiebel]

Ah, I think the Garden Grove case may be referring to a victim named William Naumann:
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2013/08/suspicious_death_garden_grove.php

ETA: I don't see the point in authorities withholding all details of a case report if those details can be found in a news article.

 

[believe09]

Off the top of my head, it was 9.21pm when police arrived that night for the welfare check. A local could tell us, but I think it would have been dark by then in CA.

Grandson, with the key, met them on the driveway, and then went into the house with police. I would find it a little odd that any family member would wait outside, rather than going into check Bob was okay. But I find it especially odd as grandson was a bit of an action man - a pilot, a karate expert and trained as an emergency medical worker, apparently.

I admit I have no idea what emergency training in OC entails - but I can't believe it teaches people to stand back and wait for others in a possible emergency.

:clap:

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I've been looking back through things, and after the Namus entry, PB doesn't seem to have mentioned her last call to Bob at all - it wasn't even mentioned on the Long Lost Love episode.

I wonder if she will ever reveal what her Dad actually said to her, the last time they ever spoke? At the moment, all anyone knows is what her brother- in- law was saying in the background. It's a bit sad that a father's last words to his daughter seem to have been reduced to a description of a 'favorable response'.

I don't even know why what brother-in-law said is in that Namus entry - I'd have thought what Bob said was much more relevant. He's the one who went missing.

Zweibel, I suspect that the truth may well be that PB's last words from Bob came many hours before that alleged phone call and were something along the lines of "I want you all to leave now. My wife is not up for debate and I have no intentions of annulling our marriage."

Since this is purely my own experience, my sample population is innately skewed but... for what it's worth, I have noticed that when people lie, they either tell too much or they say too little.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Well....if we are throwing out some ideas, I will bite-
Mr H could have been placed in the garage for all we know...not like the CL was going to be messing/cleaning out there I don't suppose?
And it really isn't known what time that last person really left...what if someone (like after they got off work , if they worked) swung over to help do some loading before they left? And hmm, was it dark there when the LE did the welfare check and didn't someone come over with a key???
( and WHY that person didn't just go on in there to begin with, since everyone was SO worried is beyond me)

Number one on the list of suspects in a murder is usually the last person known to have seen the person alive (see Lynnsie Eklund, for instance; her male friend claimed he dropped her off two doors from home).

Number two on the list of suspects in a murder is usually the first person to discover the body, if that person is related in some way to the victim.

If whoever did the clean up overlooked a telling detail, I think AH wanted the police to be the ones to find it.

 

[SuziQ]

So on the strength of that report that cloudajo posted, I think we can infer what LE thinks of PB's contribution to the timeline from the morning.

IMO we are circling back to when did you last have contact with Bob etc...I think it seems even safer now for me to be skeptical that there was a conversation between PB and Bob. Although maybe there was some element of truth there-maybe there were two voices she heard and one was her BIL.

Another item that points to people orchestrating their responses to his disappearance/now murder.

I always felt that PB never spoke to Bob because Bob could not speak. And if he could, the conversation was one that would cause Bob to leave the house with his SIL. A fake emergency of some sort. That the crime took place somewhere remote and that place is where he is now. Cadaver dogs never hit on the vehicle because a deceased Bob was never in it.

God bless all of you still searching for Bob!

 

[Trackergd]

Zweibel, I suspect that the truth may well be that PB's last words from Bob came many hours before that alleged phone call and were something along the lines of "I want you all to leave now. My wife is not up for debate and I have no intentions of annulling our marriage."

Since this is purely my own experience, my sample population is innately skewed but... for what it's worth, I have noticed that when people lie, they either tell too much or they say too little.

I agree.

And a lie of this severity shared between a number of people is only as strong as weakest member of the group.

It might only take a little guilt or pressure from LE.

 

[Oriah]

Thank you cloudajo- So Bob received a call around 10AM. He did not dial out. And that phone conversation seems to be solid enough that LE believes this is Bob's last known contact outside of whatever his family has provided.

Guess that leaves PB's phone call kind of in the dust.[/quote]


BBM:
I agree, believe09. Receiving a call of one sort might be an entirely different animal than the animal on the receiving end of the one that answers a call.

Or- anywhere in between. Or... help?

 

[zwiebel]

Daughter PB said in 'Long Lost Love' that she helped Bob out with his accounts once or twice a month. I wonder what day she usually went to his house, and if she had already completed July's paperwork when he disappeared?

From her scant description of the call to Bob, it just sounds like a 'Hey Dad, how you doing?' type of call. But from what the daughters have said, I have the distinct impression they weren't in the habit of making that kind of call to their Dad. And it seems that JuM and son-in-law were the ones who had been helping Bob rearrange things for two days; that PB knew Bob had left things to the last minute (according to RB) and would be busy, so it seems a little strange she would call him for an idle chit-chat when she had seen him just the day before.

 

[zwiebel]

Daughter JuM knew where to find trust documents Bob mislaid, and his safe keys. She knew what state his bedsheets were in. She knew exactly which items he intended to give to whom, when he passed. I think it was her who had a strong enough opinion about Bob's mental state to share it with LE when Bob first disappeared. She must have known the amounts of money Bob lent to her son, even if she hadn't been loaned money by Bob for her own home purchase.

Daughter PB helped with his accounts once or twice a month. She found out he was giving money to the barber lady. She knew he always made family sign loan agreements. She was so close to Bob, she says, she noticed he was getting forgetful and repeating himself. She lived in a home owned by her father, and paid rent for it.

Daughter RB knew exactly what Bob's legal responsibilites regarding the trust were, and what his attitude to money was. How he would never use the 'M' word (I'm still not sure why RB couldn't bring herself to say 'millionaire'). She even knew what food he kept in the freezer.

Grandson AH appeared to receive a lot of financial advice from Bob, which he took as gospel to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars, according to him, and he also spoke about an email from Bob's financial advisor which actually went to him and not Bob?

Son-in-law JeM knew Bob's house inside out because he had been repairing it for years and had also lived next door for a long period.

Yet the family had no idea how much Bob was worth.

Had no knowledge that Bob was about to add his new wife to his accounts.

Seemingly had no idea what Bob was wearing or what was missing from his closet.

Didn't know where he kept his jewellery or glasses, to check if his masonic ring and all his specs had been left behind.

Didn't know if one of the hats he always wore outside were missing.

Didn't know the brand of sneakers he wore.

Didn't know he drove the freeways.

Appeared not to have ever heard of Fontelle before she arrived in California and continued giving people that impression for years - right up until daughter PB admitted Bob had asked her to find Fontelle first.

Didn't notice the bathroom had been damaged.

Don't appear to know, or have asked son-in-law, what time he last saw Bob.

Between them though, they were able to come up with a minutely detailed list of every item they wanted from Bob's house, and noticed every item they thought was missing (excluding Bob's clothing and accessories). Son-in-law's wife paid a lot of attention to a missing candelabra, but she hasn't yet got a proper description of her missing Dad from her husband, the last known person to have seen him. That's a little remiss after four years.

 

[believe09]

I dont know if anyone needs to add another single post to yours z, lol.

'Cause, there you go. That's the story and they are sticking to it.

Or at least some of them are, because given the pressure coming down I wonder if everyone is holding firm with their stories.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

Respectfully bolded and snipped by me ...

I should have addressed this in my long post above, but spent all of my time addressing the other issues.

To my knowledge, Jeff has never indicated that he didn't know Agnes, only stated that he didn't know she was coming, as Bob hadn't told him. Could you tell me where you found this info?

There was no indication that he didn't recognize her either. Both of these statements are new to me. Thanks

:rose:

:banghead::seeya:

Well!...I was going to go back to the transcript and copy and paste it here so you could read it for yourself and I just discovered its not there!

In fact I was originally going to post that J said he didn't recognize her because she appeared differently.

I would have bet my paycheck that information was in the transcript because I read it. Apparently I didn't. So I don't have an answer for you to why I posted that information. Thats one reason i mentioned i would read it at various mental speeds, to make sure i was reading something correctly. I guess I was not reading slow enough! I am sorry for the miss information and will try not to let it happen again..But WOW, I was so sure what i posted was accurate.....

And I just discovered the meeting took place at BOBS!!....Once again I would have lost my paycheck in a bet, because i would have bet it was in the transcript that the meeting took place at one of the sisters home.

I have no answer to why I did this. I just don't know.

IF, I do read it somewhere, Ill be sure to let you know with a link, email something as I continue to look at this investigation.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

:banghead::seeya:

Well!...I was going to go back to the transcript and copy and paste it here so you could read it for yourself and I just discovered its not there!

In fact I was originally going to post that J said he didn't recognize her because she appeared differently.

I would have bet my paycheck that information was in the transcript because I read it. Apparently I didn't. So I don't have an answer for you to why I posted that information. Thats one reason i mentioned i would read it at various mental speeds, to make sure i was reading something correctly. I guess I was not reading slow enough! I am sorry for the miss information and will try not to let it happen again..But WOW, I was so sure what i posted was accurate.....

And I just discovered the meeting took place at BOBS!!....Once again I would have lost my paycheck in a bet, because i would have bet it was in the transcript that the meeting took place at one of the sisters home.

I have no answer to why I did this. I just don't know.

You just got a firsthand example of how eyewitness testimony from someone who has the best intentions in the world can be wrong. How memory can trick us on details, even important details.

And why consistency amongst witnesses is sometimes more suspicious than disagreement on major points.

 

[:+:MrTT:+:]

You just got a firsthand example of how eyewitness testimony from someone who has the best intentions in the world can be wrong. How memory can trick us on details, even important details.

And why consistency amongst witnesses is sometimes more suspicious than disagreement on major points.

Your responce to what i have done was felt on a spiritual level.

And your last comment hi lighted in red by me was exceptional!
I really felt that.
Thank you.
Perhaps you know why i did that, and we may find out together.

DID he say something at the meeting about adding her, and they all forgot, or DID he just think he mentioned it and told her?
You seem to be working on a intuitive level from time to time, and not just what we have physically to discuss.

I am not sure I want to go that deep. It can cause you to post things that don't exist.
Do you understand?

 

[zwiebel]

I would never dream of accusing daughter JuM of consistency, and I don't thinks she's said anything about the meeting anyway, but daughters RB and PB have been pretty consistent about that Sunday, including the use of caps to stress their points;

The meeting was NOT heated
The meeting was NOT about Fontelle, she was NOT discussed
The meeting WAS only to obtain copies of their Mother's will
It was nothing to do with money

But just a little looking around and you will also find

PB saying sister RB and Bob were both quick to temper at the meeting
Bob got flustered
Sister JuM ran around finding missing documents
(Even though the meeting was just to get copies of the will which RB said bob 'didn't have')
Elder sisters saying they were laughing and joking and teasing Bob about Fontelle
One sister saying she was 'long gone by then', which implies they did not all leave at the same time so not all of them can know that the meeting was never heated, about money, or about Fontelle.

They have all been pretty consistent in not mentioning if son-in-law or grandson were present at the meeting as well though.

 

[believe09]

I would never dream of accusing daughter JuM of consistency, and I don't thinks she's said anything about the meeting anyway, but daughters RB and PB have been pretty consistent about that Sunday, including the use of caps to stress their points;

The meeting was NOT heated
The meeting was NOT about Fontelle, she was NOT discussed
The meeting WAS only to obtain copies of their Mother's will
It was nothing to do with money

But just a little looking around and you will also find

PB saying sister RB and Bob were both quick to temper at the meeting
Bob got flustered
Sister JuM ran around finding missing documents
(Even though the meeting was just to get copies of the will which RB said bob 'didn't have')
Elder sisters saying they were laughing and joking and teasing Bob about Fontelle
One sister saying she was 'long gone by then', which implies they did not all leave at the same time so not all of them can know that the meeting was never heated, about money, or about Fontelle.

They have all been pretty consistent in not mentioning if son-in-law or grandson were present at the meeting as well though.

IIRC, RB said they were laughing teasing about Fontelle AND BL. The BL situation is what caused them to call in the APS dogs, right? At least once. APS was called again for reasons unknown-maybe this time it had to do with Fontelle and Bob being married. APS knows-the case file is still open. IIRC both incident reports can be subpoenaed. I would love to read the case worker's notes. I bet Bob had a few choice words to say to all of his children and the outlaws after the first interview.

In any case, given the animosity regarding BL being in Bob's life, I am :waitasec: about the teasing thing.

 

[believe09]

For me, the back to the basics is this:

PB-when did you last see and speak with your father, and where were you and where was he and what was he wearing.

RB: when did you last see and speak with your father, and where were you and where was he and what was he wearing

JuM: when did you last see and speak with your father, and where were you and where was he and what was he wearing

JeM: when did you last see and speak with your fFIL, and where were you and where was he and what was he wearing

AH: when did you last see and speak with your GF, and where were you and where was he and what was he wearing.

etc...

 

[zwiebel]

Your responce to what i have done was felt on a spiritual level.

And your last comment hi lighted in red by me was exceptional!
I really felt that.
Thank you.
Perhaps you know why i did that, and we may find out together.

DID he say something at the meeting about adding her, and they all forgot, or DID he just think he mentioned it and told her?
You seem to be working on a intuitive level from time to time, and not just what we have physically to discuss.

I am not sure I want to go that deep. It can cause you to post things that don't exist.
Do you understand?

If you've been reading through old threads there was some confusion at one point about where the meeting was held (I think it was me) and I think there may have been suggestions that family members didn't know the housekeeper that well - maybe you'd registered that in the back of your mind, and that's what caused the confusion?

Fontelle seems pretty convinced that Bob was still very upset when he spoke to her about the meeting and the family's reaction, so I tend to doubt he had just imagined it.