CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #17

[sreshowtime]

oh i think that is off lytle creek, but gated

 

[zwiebel]

hmmm. I just read the last 2 pages, and I don't see any posts about Bob? Am I on the wrong thread?

Welcome to Bob's thread!

Nope. Right thread and Bob Harrod is most definitely still missing and needs to be found. Mnt Baldy doesn't seem too far away.

 

[zwiebel]

oh i think that is off lytle creek, but gated

Gated as in locked at certain times until a man comes to open them, you think? Or just gated until someone wants to get through, even if they're not supposed to?

 

[sreshowtime]

you are going to make me go there aren't you zwie

yes this is definitely ALL about Mr. H. Poor dear needs found even though we know it is very much likely going to be a sad, sad day when he is. Some of us have come to love the man in our own way and really would like for justice to be served and resolution found.

 

[sreshowtime]

just in case anyone hasn't seen & had opportunity to share on and on with all that they know-

Robert Harrod Missing - YouTube

 

[sreshowtime]

sticking some lytle creek down below

 

[zwiebel]

I just went on a photo tour. Terrifying.

http://www.socaltrailriders.org/forum/showthread.php?26001-San-Sevaine-Big-Tree-Truck-Road

When I was even shorter than I am now, I got stuck for three hours on a 'cliff' that was only about ten feet off the ground. Lots of people walked past, but I was too embarrassed to say I was stuck. It put me off any sort of upwards climbing for life. If people like me had been in charge, the West would never have been discovered, I suspect.

 

[zwiebel]

I would like a map showing the date and location of where hikers have located remains in SoCal. Going back as far as possible. It would be a bit of a nightmare to collate all that information though. But it could be really helpful in the case of missing people like Bob, where there is little clue to where they might be ( or even what time they disappeared, cough cough).

I think sres should make one.

 

[sreshowtime]

oh lawsy...my plate is really full at the moment...umm interesting thought hmm

 

[zwiebel]

It is interesting. It was inspired by a post of yours on another thread, sres. You mentioned excluding where someone was NOT might be helpful, and that got me thinking.

Given that there really aren't a lot of clues to where Mr Harrod could be, other than that he is probably in SoCal, probably in a nature area and is unlikely to have been taken on a cross country highway trip by a passing predator, there is a huge area to cover. So any little bit that can just about be excluded will help. I don't know the exact details, but I guess each time unexplained remains are discovered, police conduct an extensive search of the surrounding area. Wasn't that the way a serial killer was discovered, when police locating Shannen Gilbert's remains came across other bodies?

So I think the locations where remains have been discovered in the environs outside of Placentia since 2009, could be excluded. Bob isn't there. Unless it's a straightforward case of a hiker or climber falling and being located pretty soon. Then I don't think police would search the surrounding area.

It's just a drop in the ocean, but who cares? Just an inch nearer to finding Bob is something. Half the work is probably done somewhere anyway - mapping accident sites could be very useful so that's probably out there already.

 

[sreshowtime]

lol...I talk too much lol...yeah where someone is not, I mean gee whiz, its simple logic...hmm daunting task to map locations of found persons... I know I had looked at that a wee bit back when...like the proverbial dumping grounds theory of sorts. If there are any correlations to be had..

what would you venture to say as far as a radius from Placentia? Like miles out, what particular direction(s)

 

[Grainne Dhu]

It is interesting. It was inspired by a post of yours on another thread, sres. You mentioned excluding where someone was NOT might be helpful, and that got me thinking.

Given that there really aren't a lot of clues to where Mr Harrod could be, other than that he is probably in SoCal, probably in a nature area and is unlikely to have been taken on a cross country highway trip by a passing predator, there is a huge area to cover. So any little bit that can just about be excluded will help. I don't know the exact details, but I guess each time unexplained remains are discovered, police conduct an extensive search of the surrounding area. Wasn't that the way a serial killer was discovered, when police locating Shannen Gilbert's remains came across other bodies?

So I think the locations where remains have been discovered in the environs outside of Placentia since 2009, could be excluded. Bob isn't there. Unless it's a straightforward case of a hiker or climber falling and being located pretty soon. Then I don't think police would search the surrounding area.

It's just a drop in the ocean, but who cares? Just an inch nearer to finding Bob is something. Half the work is probably done somewhere anyway - mapping accident sites could be very useful so that's probably out there already.

When the victims of the Gilgo Beach serial killer were found, the LE officer was looking for Shannan Gilbert's remains with his HRD dog and found different victims.

Since then, Shannan's remains have been found and it is suspected that she may actually have been the victim of an accident. Her death was ruled as either "death by misadventure" or "inconclusive" either of which meaning that there is no evidence that another human being caused it. Her family believes she was murdered but the prevailing theory seems to be that she became panicked due to a bad drug reaction, ran off in terror and ended up in the marsh where she died of either hypothermia or drowning.

If you are going to do a map of locations that have been searched since Bob disappeared, it would be most helpful to note the type or level of search done. The gold standard is a line of specially trained searchers on hands and knees, shoulder to shoulder; if an area has been searched in that manner, you can eliminate it. Other searches are more likely to miss remains, particularly skeletal and incomplete remains.

So a map would need something like colour coded shading to give a quick reference as to the level or type of search conducted.

 

[zwiebel]

Thanks for that tip Grainne. Now I am thinking the best - probably only way to do something like that would be to have an online map where everybody could add or correct info, like wiki.

I can't see it would be possible for just a few people to do it. Just looking up media links to discover what kind of searches were carried out would take time. It would all be very date dependent too - an area searched and remains discovered in, say, 2012, could still have become the resting place of someone who disappeared in 2013.

It would all be quite complicated, I think.

 

[sreshowtime]

finding the info and specific located at ...would be the time intensive part
popping the location on a map, not so much

although I do wonder if LE in different counties have some kind of database of finds, whether from lost/homicide
I know SAR groups keep logs
not impossible...daunting

didn't we go back on here, looking at any finds in the months leading up to Mr. H's missing, where the perp may have tucked the knowledge away, kwim???

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Thanks for that tip Grainne. Now I am thinking the best - probably only way to do something like that would be to have an online map where everybody could add or correct info, like wiki.

I can't see it would be possible for just a few people to do it. Just looking up media links to discover what kind of searches were carried out would take time. It would all be very date dependent too - an area searched and remains discovered in, say, 2012, could still have become the resting place of someone who disappeared in 2013.

It would all be quite complicated, I think.

I think perhaps it would be best done in layers, so that the end user could plug in the date and see all the layers that pertain after that date but none of what was done before that date. Each 'layer' would be all the searches done in connection with a specific victim or maybe all searches done within a specific time frame, such as all searches done in March 2012 (random date picked out of the air).

Keeping track of boundaries is also important. There have been so many cases where one or more bodies were found just beyond the outer boundary of the initial search. That happened in several locations where Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway dumped bodies, for instance.

So one would need to be able to zoom in and out.

This would be a project of immense usefulness to anyone organising searches for any missing person but particularly for law enforcement.

 

[sreshowtime]

Grainne...you made my head spin a la Linda Blair, lol

I am having flashbacks of correlation coefficients and chi-squares and excel spreadsheets, yikes, noooo

we seriously need a Sheldon/Phd candidate

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Grainne...you made my head spin a la Linda Blair, lol

I am having flashbacks of correlation coefficients and chi-squares and excel spreadsheets, yikes, noooo

we seriously need a Sheldon/Phd candidate

I think that is one of the characters from The Big Bang Theory, right?

I think the project needs two very different skillsets. One is the person who creates the database and map tools. The other is a person who is a schmooze extraordinaire, who can persuade various strangers to invest a nontrivial amount of time in sharing data to be funnelled to the first person.

In other words, we need a techie and a people person.

Oh, and someone who can create categories of searches. There's a lot of variation in how searches are conducted but I think they could be simplified into 5 different categories. I envision a system where each category of search is assigned a particular type of hatching; a category 5 search would be the trained specialists on hands and knees going shoulder to shoulder and would be solid black. The other four categories would be from a light grey to a dark grey, so that an end user could look at the finished map and mentally generate the probabilities.

It is a huge project, for sure. But it would be such a useful tool. One way to fund it would be to create the tool and then have participating jurisdictions somehow pay to be included. The reason I would focus on jurisdictions would be that without LE backing, many SAR groups would not be comfortable sharing their records. Buy-in and a blessing from LE would open many more doors.

 

[Oriah]

I think perhaps it would be best done in layers, so that the end user could plug in the date and see all the layers that pertain after that date but none of what was done before that date. Each 'layer' would be all the searches done in connection with a specific victim or maybe all searches done within a specific time frame, such as all searches done in March 2012 (random date picked out of the air).

Keeping track of boundaries is also important. There have been so many cases where one or more bodies were found just beyond the outer boundary of the initial search. That happened in several locations where Ted Bundy and Gary Ridgway dumped bodies, for instance.

So one would need to be able to zoom in and out.

This would be a project of immense usefulness to anyone organising searches for any missing person but particularly for law enforcement.

It sure would. It is incredibly time consuming (the system that currently exists)...especially cases out for more than a few months, or with SAR from all over, multiple searches, private, public, LE. Developing a system that actually worked-communication wise would be truly priceless. And locate a lot more of our missing and identify our UIDs...all so much more swiftly. Peace for so many more families.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

It sure would. It is incredibly time consuming (the system that currently exists)...especially cases out for more than a few months, or with SAR from all over, multiple searches, private, public, LE. Developing a system that actually worked-communication wise would be truly priceless. And locate a lot more of our missing and identify our UIDs...all so much more swiftly. Peace for so many more families.

I'm realising there's actually three main areas that have to be addressed.

The tech side has to be able to put together a tool that can juggle many variables and, ideally, also be fluent in intuitive user interface principles so that it doesn't take any kind of expert to figure out how to use the darn thing.

The organisational side has to be able to be able to categorise and synthesise many, many types of data.

The people side has to be able to convince many different potential contributors to spend what could be quite a lot of time in digging out the data they possess and also be good at getting each contact person they get to give them referrals to other people (the whole people who know people system).

I honestly think that rather than going for one big grant to get the whole thing done, it would be wisest in many ways to go for a seed grant and then charge each jurisdiction a fee. The various jurisdictions, of course, could seek out grant money of their own to fund the fee. Getting buy-in from LE is absolutely necessary and the most effective way to get full cooperation is to talk them into plunking money on the table.

I used to offer a dog behaviour seminar and one of the basic rules was that there were no observers allowed. Everyone there had to bring a dog so that everyone there had a stake in the various exercises. Everyone had to be committed to working together for the seminar to succeed and the best way to get cooperation was to make sure everyone was contributing equally.

Does that make sense outside of my own head?

 

[zwiebel]

I wonder most SAR keep track of the boundaries of searches? Even if they don't though, if you had a facility where that info was required, it would encourage the collection of that information in future.

I bet I know where something like this exists already - for archaeologists, excavating very important sites over periods of years. Especially where the environment has to be returned to its orginal condition after any dig. They'd need to document where and when anything was found and the exact boundaries of any dig, for future archeaological surveys or excavations.

OMG. First one I found. Horrible.
http://www.iadb.org.uk/