NOT GUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

[Ontario Mom]

As we reach the later hours of American Thanksgiving weekend, I want to reach across the divide on this case. I hope all of my American friends had a lovely weekend (whether with family or finding peace alone). I believe we all want the best for society. We may disagree with the details, but our goals are to make the world a better place.

I hope we find better ways to support the mentally ill. I also also hope we continue to step forward to protect others.

We can agree to disagree. But we are all human.

That was very kind of you. Thank you.

 

[GRT]

As we reach the later hours of American Thanksgiving weekend, I want to reach across the divide on this case. I hope all of my American friends had a lovely weekend (whether with family or finding peace alone). I believe we all want the best for society. We may disagree with the details, but our goals are to make the world a better place.

I hope we find better ways to support the mentally ill. I also also hope we continue to step forward to protect others.

We can agree to disagree. But we are all human.

Very nice post!

 

[GRT]

And, as an aside I realized Dr Harris was completing a fellowship and was "supervised" while performing Neely's autopsy.

jmo

Thanks for those links! I wasn't aware Dr. Harris was working under supervision when she did JN's autopsy, but being a relative newbie might explain her comment, “No toxicological report could have changed my opinion."

However, I missed something of vital importance that redeems Harris a bit in my eyes:

"Neely had K2 in his system, a synthetic marijuana that’s classified as a stimulant like cocaine. He also had a sickle cell condition that got triggered because of the chokehold, Dr. Harris testified."

That's pretty big! Harris basically verified what Dr. Chundru said. Up to this point, we've been hearing a lot of discussion about how Chundru must have been wrong about the sickling event.

But now, the Prosecution's star witness, Dr. Harris, agrees under oath that a sickling event did occur.

At this point, I don't see how any jury could convict DP, but I have to remember that I didn't hear everything they heard, and juries can do odd things.

We will know soon...

All MOO

 

[Lilibet]

"Neely had K2 in his system, a synthetic marijuana that’s classified as a stimulant like cocaine. He also had a sickle cell condition that got triggered because of the chokehold, Dr. Harris testified."

But would he have died of the sickling event, K2, etc if he had not been held in a chokehold for too long? Dr Chundru blamed Mr Neely’s struggling for the conditions (such as sickling) leading to his death. But he was exerting himself in a struggle to breathe, as anyone would if held in a chokehold. So the triggering action for the sickling event was the chokehold and asphyxiation. He would not have died in those moments of any of the causes listed by Dr Chundru without Mr Penny’s chokehold. The chokehold precipitated his death. You can’t use a pre-existing condition as a get-out-of-jail-free card. I don’t see how the jury can reach any other verdict but guilty.

JMO

 

[GRT]

But would he have died of the sickling event, K2, etc if he had not been held in a chokehold for too long? Dr Chundru blamed Mr Neely’s struggling for the conditions (such as sickling) leading to his death. But he was exerting himself in a struggle to breathe, as anyone would if held in a chokehold. So the triggering action for the sickling event was the chokehold and asphyxiation. He would not have died in those moments of any of the causes listed by Dr Chundru without Mr Penny’s chokehold. The chokehold precipitated his death. You can’t use a pre-existing condition as a get-out-of-jail-free card. I don’t see how the jury can reach any other verdict but guilty.

JMO

From what I understand—and from watching the video more times than I should have—DP was not struggling to breathe as much as he was struggling against being restrained.

DP's, military trainer testified that DP could have rendered JN unconscious within seconds, so it doesn't appear that DP was trying to harm JN as much as he was trying to hold him still. If you notice, the crook of DP's elbow is just below JN's chin, which indicates DP's hold at JN's trachea was not compressive. Had he had his forearm in that spot and pulled upward, it would have indicated choking off JN's air supply.

I don't think the chokehold precipitated JN's death any more than if JN had been restrained just by his arms and legs. As long as JN was struggling, he was going to enter the sickling event.

Alternately, I don't think a healthy person being restrained by DP that day would have died.

All MOO...

 

[Rolypolyoly]

From what I understand—and from watching the video more times than I should have—DP was not struggling to breathe as much as he was struggling against being restrained.

DP's, military trainer testified that DP could have rendered JN unconscious within seconds, so it doesn't appear that DP was trying to harm JN as much as he was trying to hold him still. If you notice, the crook of DP's elbow is just below JN's chin, which indicates DP's hold at JN's trachea was not compressive. Had he had his forearm in that spot and pulled upward, it would have indicated choking off JN's air supply.

I don't think the chokehold precipitated JN's death any more than if JN had been restrained just by his arms and legs. As long as JN was struggling, he was going to enter the sickling event.

Alternately, I don't think a healthy person being restrained by DP that day would have died.

All MOO...

I don't think there's many people here, on either side of the fence, that believe DP had any intent to cause harm.

Re your point on the chokehold, if Penny had used his training appropriately, and applied the chokehold (which i believe was his intent, judging by his remarks right after and then later in his police interview) properly, as he was trained, we wouldnt be having this conversation. JN would have been out in seconds and then could have been safely restrained (I'm sure someone on the train had a belt for his hands).

I believe that DP made a deadly mistake and he should be held accountable for that. He had ample opportunity to let go, he had successfully stopped the perceived threat and more than one person warned him he was going to kill JN and to let go. The man on the phone to his wife in particular was very clear.
JMO.

 

[Jade]

Respectfully snipped by me for focus.

It's not really clear that DP lied--but it is clear that Eric Gonzalez lied when he said JN hit him. Gonzalez admitted he lied about that because he was afraid he'd get charged, but he's also the one who said DP held on after he said he'd hold JN's hands so DP could let go. Problem is--Gonzalez is already been established as a liar, so I don't put too much stock in that statement either.

But, even if Gonzalez didn't lie that time, it makes no difference because DP was not holding JN tight enough that it would kill JN. We know that because Dr. Chundru testified to it, based on the autopsy results

I haven't seen any verification of the mother testifying that JN didn't threaten her. Several of the witnesses testified that JN lunged toward her and her child, which could be construed as a threat.

All...MOO

BBM Enlarged as it has been quoted several times on this thread and must have been overlooked:

[...]
“At that moment Danny sees a mother barricading her son behind a stroller just as Mr. Neely appears to go for them,” Kenniff said. “(Danny) hears the words, ‘I will kill.’
[...]
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/us/daniel-penny-trial-jordan-neely-death/index.htm

[...]
“I actually took the stroller that I had and I put it in front of my son to create a barrier of sorts, you know, because I didn’t know what was going to happen,” she testified.

“Did Mr. Neely ever lunge at you and say: ‘I will kill?’” prosecutor Jillian Shartrand asked.

“No, he did not,” Sitro testified.

Gittings, Couvreur and Sitro testified that they did not see Neely carrying a weapon or directing his ire at anyone in particular. He was not armed, jurors have been told.

[...]
Subway riders recall chaotic scene before Daniel Penny put Jordan Neely in chokehold


Mr. Gonzalez admitted why he lied and then went on to testify under oath in front of the jury.

Daniel Penny lied, did not admit to anything, did not testify under oath in front of the jury.

Mr. Gonzalez has much weight from his subsequent honesty and willingness to get it right and testify, imo.


[…]

In a New York City courtroom, Eric Gonzalez recalled encountering the chaotic struggle in progress, after Daniel Penny had already pinned the man, Jordan Neely, to the train's floor and placed him in a firm chokehold.

“I made my presence known to Daniel Penny,” Gonzalez told jurors. “I said, ‘I’m going to grab his hands so you can let go.’”

[..]

Man who helped restrain Jordan Neely on NYC subway wanted Daniel Penny to 'let go'


The video is the truth teller. Gonzalez is on the video talking and motioning to Penny as Penny is tightening JN's neck instead of lessening. The jury watched the video in slow motion:

Man who aided Daniel Penny as he gripped Jordan Neely in chokehold says he urged him, ‘You can let him go’

NEW YORK — A man who aided Daniel Penny while he restrained Jordan Neely in a lethal chokehold aboard a subway car in May 2023 recalled telling the former U.S. Marine he could safely release his grip from Neely’s neck in trial testimony on Tuesday. “I said, ‘I will grab his hands, so you can let...

www.yahoo.com

all imo

 

[IDK]

IMO, I am not surprised that different witnesses have different memories of exact details. It was a sudden unexpected threat with everyone caught off guard.

 

[Inthedetails]

IMO, I am not surprised that different witnesses have different memories of exact details. It was a sudden unexpected threat with everyone caught off guard.

The threat was sudden, but he was killed after the passengers exited the train.

jmo

 

[Inthedetails]

As we head into the deliberations stage soon, here is a refresher of the charges the defendant faces. Reminder, he is NOT charged with stopping a threat.

_______________________

§ 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.
A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:
He recklessly causes the death of another person...
Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

§ 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.
A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.
Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.

This might be useful to consider too:
"According to New York Penal Law § 15.05(4), acting with "criminal negligence" means that you failed to perceive a substantial risk that your actions or inaction would result in another person's death. The risk must constitute a gross deviation from the standard of care that a reasonable person would observe under the circumstances."

According to New York Penal Law § 15.05(3), acting "recklessly" as used in the manslaughter in the second degree statute is defined as being aware that your actions present a substantial risk that someone could be killed and disregarding that risk.

___________________________​

I am not a lawyer. I used these sources:

NYS Open Legislation | NYSenate.gov​

www.nysenate.gov

NY Penal Law § 125.11: Aggravated criminally negligent homicide​

NY Penal Law § 125.15: Manslaughter in the second degree

 

[Jade]

On cross Chundru walks back from his claims that the injuries on JN's neck didn't line up with the position of DP's choke and the broken blood vessels in his eyes.


[…]

"But Chundru faced a grueling cross-examination Thursday afternoon as prosecutors hammered him with questions about his history as a forensic pathologist-for-hire.

Under fiery questioning from Assistant District Attorney Dafna Yoran, Chundru acknowledged that a majority of his work is in cases like this, where he is hired by defense attorneys to disprove the conclusions of county medical examiners. He’s paid handsomely to do so — Chundru said his revenue is roughly $5 million per year, and he’s billed Penny’s defense team for about $90,000 so far.

Still, Chundru insisted: “I always try to find the truth.”

But Yoran got Chundru to walk back some of his testimony. On direct examination, Chundru downplayed the hemorrhaging found in Neely’s neck as minimal. On cross, he admitted that some hemorrhages were found “deep inside the neck,” indicative of Penny using some force as he restrained Neely.

Chundru also conceded that, had Neely gone unconscious at one point from Penny’s squeeze, Penny continued applying pressure for long enough afterward to cause Neely serious brain injury or death. '


[…]

https://www.courthousenews.com/in-n...marines-expert-casts-doubt-on-autopsy-report/



all imo

 

[Rolypolyoly]

BBM Enlarged as it has been quoted several times on this thread and must have been overlooked:

[...]
“At that moment Danny sees a mother barricading her son behind a stroller just as Mr. Neely appears to go for them,” Kenniff said. “(Danny) hears the words, ‘I will kill.’
[...]
https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/01/us/daniel-penny-trial-jordan-neely-death/index.htm

[...]
“I actually took the stroller that I had and I put it in front of my son to create a barrier of sorts, you know, because I didn’t know what was going to happen,” she testified.

“Did Mr. Neely ever lunge at you and say: ‘I will kill?’” prosecutor Jillian Shartrand asked.

“No, he did not,” Sitro testified.

Gittings, Couvreur and Sitro testified that they did not see Neely carrying a weapon or directing his ire at anyone in particular. He was not armed, jurors have been told.

[...]
Subway riders recall chaotic scene before Daniel Penny put Jordan Neely in chokehold


Mr. Gonzalez admitted why he lied and then went on to testify under oath in front of the jury.

Daniel Penny lied, did not admit to anything, did not testify under oath in front of the jury.

Mr. Gonzalez has much weight from his subsequent honesty and willingness to get it right and testify, imo.


[…]

In a New York City courtroom, Eric Gonzalez recalled encountering the chaotic struggle in progress, after Daniel Penny had already pinned the man, Jordan Neely, to the train's floor and placed him in a firm chokehold.

“I made my presence known to Daniel Penny,” Gonzalez told jurors. “I said, ‘I’m going to grab his hands so you can let go.’”

[..]

Man who helped restrain Jordan Neely on NYC subway wanted Daniel Penny to 'let go'


The video is the truth teller. Gonzalez is on the video talking and motioning to Penny as Penny is tightening JN's neck instead of lessening. The jury watched the video in slow motion:

Man who aided Daniel Penny as he gripped Jordan Neely in chokehold says he urged him, ‘You can let him go’

NEW YORK — A man who aided Daniel Penny while he restrained Jordan Neely in a lethal chokehold aboard a subway car in May 2023 recalled telling the former U.S. Marine he could safely release his grip from Neely’s neck in trial testimony on Tuesday. “I said, ‘I will grab his hands, so you can let...

www.yahoo.com

all imo

To add to this, DP himself said in his police interview that both men confirmed they had a firm hold on JN. It was at this point he told police he let go, but as we saw in the subway video, that was not true. DP told a calculated lie to the detectives, just as he evaded answering certain questions.

JMO.

 

[Ontario Mom]

IMO, I am not surprised that different witnesses have different memories of exact details. It was a sudden unexpected threat with everyone caught off guard.

I only know this due to following true crime for 50+ years but eyewitness testimony is always incredibly inconsistent.
10 people can witness the exact same scenario and you'll get 15 different opinions on what happened, when it happened, colors of cars, weapons used, men present, women present, what was said, etc.
I'm sure there are some very reasonable psychological reasons for this (tons of articles if you google why eye witness testimony is unreliable), but it's just the way it is.

 

[IDK]

The threat was sudden, but he was killed after the passengers exited the train.

jmo

Respectfully, I was referring to witness statements, not time of death. IMO.

 

[Inthedetails]

Respectfully, I was referring to witness statements, not time of death. IMO.

And I am of the opinion that, while the witness statements (even if differing) set the scene for why Penny took down Neely, in the end, the statements about the threat will not be part of the deliberations when deciding guilt based on the actual charges the defendant faces. And the charges involve time of death.

We're entering the deliberation stage now, but I understand people want to hash and re-hash the threat even though, imo, the threat is a given by both sides.


jmo

 

[Ontario Mom]

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[GRT]

The threat was sudden, but he was killed after the passengers exited the train.

jmo

If Dr. Chundru is right--and I have no reason to believe he isn't--the sickling event started before the passengers exited the train, so it would not have mattered if DP had released his hold sooner--JN was already dying due to several factors.

 

[GRT]

Is there a link for that because that’s not true according to Dr. Chundru. Nor did Dr. C say SCT was a sole cause.

Respectfully snipped by me for focus...

I don't think anyone said Dr. Chundru said SCT was the sole cause. It was one of several factors. Chundru just emphasized that the chokehold was not the cause of JN's death.

 

[Dotta]

"Daniel Penny trial latest:
Everything we know about NYC chokehold case
as closing arguments begin."

Daniel Penny trial latest: Everything we know about NYC chokehold case

Penny is charged with manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide. He faces up to 15 years in prison.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[shotgun09]

Closing arguments today , with the Defense up first.

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