NOT GUILTY Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely #4

[Ontario Mom]

So basically the judge is all "yeah, pretty sure you can all figure this out" with no support for it at all.
Wild.

jmo

 

[Ontario Mom]

It seems that even if jury remains deadlocked on Count 1, Judge Wiley believes he can tell them to move on to consider Count 2 - he has asked / encouraged the ADAs to find him legal precedent for this. Here's the statute, CPL 310.70: https://nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/CPL/310.70

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[shotgun09]

Case is over, if the jury remains hung on Count 1. Judge knows it.
He just won't admit it. IMO

<modsnip>

 

[jepop]

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Sundog]

Judge Wiley believes everyone will ultimately have to figure out whether jurors can move onto count 2, criminally negligent homicide, if hung on count 1, manslaughterJudge thinks it's legally possible but can't find support for it"I just intuit from case law"

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

You would think the judge would have researched this given that it was a likely outcome of jury deliberations. His first interpretation was that the jury needs to render a verdict on count 1 before moving on to count 2. Now he is thinking that case law "likely" allows for a hung jury on count 1 and the ability for the jury to move on to count 2. But he isn't familiar with the case law to be certain about this.

 

[acutename]

Judge Wiley: You 12 were selected to serve, both side expressed confidence in your fairness. There's no reason to think a future jury would be more intelligent or hard-working. I am asking you to resume deliberations. Be flexible and willing to change position

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

how flexible can they be and still be honest?

 

[Ontario Mom]

Update of 12:26 pm - ADA Dafna Yoran has come back in and is handed a note.Court Officer: They're ready.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[PrairieWind]

I have never faced this issue myself. I would think that if the Court is going to allow the jury to move on to consider Count 2, the Court will have to find the Defendant "not-guilty" on Count 1 first. But that might be reversible error. Now, the Court COULD do that, and then see what the jury does. If the jury still hangs on count 2, it is just a mistrial.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Daniel Penny and his lawyers come in, get the note.Judge Wiley: So got the next note. It states, We the jury request further clarification on whether a person reasonably believes force is necessary. We would like more on what is a reasonable person

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Sundog]

I assume the defense is also busy doing their own research, but the Judge in this case appears to want to move ahead with jury deliberations without knowing case law precedent and hearing the views of both the defense and prosecution on the case law. Wow. Will we be looking at an appeal just based on this? A guess by the judge based on his intuition of what case law likely shows?

 

[Sundog]

Daniel Penny and his lawyers come in, get the note.Judge Wiley: So got the next note. It states, We the jury request further clarification on whether a person reasonably believes force is necessary. We would like more on what is a reasonable person

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

I'm laughing at this, but it's not unexpected, the Judge put the jury in this position to not even be able to decide on what a "reasonable person" is.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Judge Wiley: There's a passage in People v. Goetz (chuckles) in which they note that reasonableness must be based on circumstances. Maybe that will help.Penny's lawyer Kenniff: We obviously know the Goetz case very well, that's speaking to the subjective...

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[shotgun09]

Define reasonable person...????
Ya got a few days?

That's admirable, that they ( jurors) are showing an effort to reach a unified conclusion. But reasonable definition is getting into the weeds there. IMO

Poor jury

 

[Ontario Mom]

Judge Wiley: Bring them back out.Jury entering!Judge Wiley: Reasonableness is up to you to decide. What would a reasonable person do in this situation? He must have honestly believed Jordan Neely was going to use physical force against him or someone else

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[DS2021]

This is gonna end in a mistrial imo

 

[Ontario Mom]

Judge Wiley: Bring them back out.Jury entering!Judge Wiley: Reasonableness is up to you to decide. What would a reasonable person do in this situation? He must have honestly believed Jordan Neely was going to use physical force against him or someone else

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

His testimony (to LE), as well as that of others make it pretty clear both him and other passengers believed that.
That's the *entire* reason he's on trial, is because he acted on that belief and it ended horribly.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Jury exits.Judge: They'll lunch at 1, then we'll resume

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Donswife48]

DP has stated JN was talking gibberish. DP said "He was talking gibberish ... but these guys are pushing people in front of trains and stuff," he told investigators"

Just three days earlier, a straphanger had been stabbed with an ice pick on a J train. It was about a month after a PBS reporter got sucker punched on a No. 4 train. There was a shove a week before that, and the victim hit the side of a moving R train and survived.

His action is the definition of a reasonable person, one who fears of being stabbed or punched. JMO

 

[shotgun09]

IMO, From the reading of the judge's quote on 'reasonable' to the jury, it sounds like he just gave them a full reason to acquit DP.

Darn lunch time !!

 

[Sundog]

DP has stated JN was talking gibberish. DP said "He was talking gibberish ... but these guys are pushing people in front of trains and stuff," he told investigators"

Just three days earlier, a straphanger had been stabbed with an ice pick on a J train. It was about a month after a PBS reporter got sucker punched on a No. 4 train. There was a shove a week before that, and the victim hit the side of a moving R train and survived.

His action is the definition of a reasonable person, one who fears of being stabbed or punched. JMO

And other passengers testified that they feared for their lives. So what would a reasonable person do? Restrain the aggressive and unpredictable passenger who was causing mayhem on the subway car. That was the only option, as they were trapped with him in enclosed space with no way to escape his violent rantings.