Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[LinasK]

So are you saying that it is ok to kill someone if you don't know their intentions? If they seem a bit off the wall? Should all mentally ill people be killed since we don't know what they might do because we feel uncomfortable around them?
Of course I understand it isn't as simple as I am proposing. But it is a fine line between feeling uncomfortable and killing someone once they aren't a threat anymore.

Exactly. It isn't the public's job to play vigilante either. That's what Law Enforcement is for. In the SF Bay Area they have their own police force for our subway- BART police, and they ride the trains.

 

[IceIce9]

The solution is to avoid the aggressive person by getting away from them- moving to another train car. New York isn't the only city with a subway, and people get aggressive on the streets too. It's totally possible to do this. It happened to me on the street in another state 3 weeks ago.

Sometimes easier said than done. The woman with a baby in a stroller, someone with young children, an elderly person, someone with mobility issues, not always easy to just move to another car.

 

[acutename]

The solution is to avoid the aggressive person by getting away from them- moving to another train car. New York isn't the only city with a subway, and people get aggressive on the streets too. It's totally possible to do this. It happened to me on the street in another state 3 weeks ago.

basically illegal to move between the cars when the train is moving

NYC Transit warns against walking, riding between ...​

METRO Magazine
https://www.metro-magazine.com › nyc-transit-warns-a...




Jan 3, 2019 — It's against the rules and very dangerous to ride or walk between train cars, unless it's an emergency, or if you're directed by a police ...

and you know if everyone rushes out, the chance of some one tripping or knocking some one else down is good... so then when is it an "emergency?" You basically have to be a clairvoyant to tell when a mentally ill person is just bluffing and when s/he will haul off and hit or cut you up. IMO

 

[Lilibet]

The ONLY issue at play here from the very beginning is whether Penny should have kept Neely in a chokehold for as long as he did until Neely was dead.

Various arguments here are irrelevant. No one was terrified after Penny put Neely on the floor and restrained him, ultimately with help from two other men. Penny’s wild talk was no longer an issue. No one needed to move to another car. They were able to get off the train while Penny was holding Neely down. There was no need for Penny and others to be aware of Neely’s mental illness and arrest history. He appeared to be a threat and Penny dealt with it quickly. There was no reason for Penny to restrain Neely with a chokehold until he died.

If Neely had continued to fight, he was outnumbered by Penny and the other two men. With the help of the two other men Penny could have continued to restrain Neely until LE arrived WITHOUT keeping him in a chokehold. Anyone with any awareness of George Floyd/Derek Chauvin would have to know how dangerous this was. Not to mention Penny was warned it could be fatal. What on earth was he thinking?!

I would have been appreciative of Penny restraining Neely until LE arrived. I don’t think he intended or set out to kill Neely. BUT, his action of maintaining the chokehold was unnecessary and is at the root of the charges and is the ONLY relevant issue regarding his guilt or innocence.

As a reminder, this is what Penny is charged with:
'Manslaughter in the second degree'
Penal (PEN) CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE H, ARTICLE 125

§ 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.

A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:

1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or

3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.

Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

SECTION 125.10
Criminally negligent homicide
Penal (PEN) CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE H, ARTICLE 125

§ 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.

A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.

Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.
The New York State Senate
————————-
Recklessly— recklessly
in a way that is dangerous and shows that you are not thinking about the risks and possible results of your behavior:

Criminally negligent— What Is Criminal Negligence?
Criminal negligence (sometimes called culpable negligence) refers to a defendant who acts in disregard of a serious risk of harm that a reasonable person in the same situation would have perceived. Another common definition includes an act that amounts to a gross deviation from the general standard of care.

 

[jepop]

The ONLY issue at play here from the very beginning is whether Penny should have kept Neely in a chokehold for as long as he did until Neely was dead.

Various arguments here are irrelevant. No one was terrified after Penny put Neely on the floor and restrained him, ultimately with help from two other men. Penny’s wild talk was no longer an issue. No one needed to move to another car. They were able to get off the train while Penny was holding Neely down. There was no need for Penny and others to be aware of Neely’s mental illness and arrest history. He appeared to be a threat and Penny dealt with it quickly. There was no reason for Penny to restrain Neely with a chokehold until he died.

If Neely had continued to fight, he was outnumbered by Penny and the other two men. With the help of the two other men Penny could have continued to restrain Neely until LE arrived WITHOUT keeping him in a chokehold. Anyone with any awareness of George Floyd/Derek Chauvin would have to know how dangerous this was. Not to mention Penny was warned it could be fatal. What on earth was he thinking?!

I would have been appreciative of Penny restraining Neely until LE arrived. I don’t think he intended or set out to kill Neely. BUT, his action of maintaining the chokehold was unnecessary and is at the root of the charges and is the ONLY relevant issue regarding his guilt or innocence.

As a reminder, this is what Penny is charged with:
'Manslaughter in the second degree'
Penal (PEN) CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE H, ARTICLE 125

§ 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.

A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:

1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or

3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.

Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

SECTION 125.10
Criminally negligent homicide
Penal (PEN) CHAPTER 40, PART 3, TITLE H, ARTICLE 125

§ 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.

A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with
criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.

Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.
The New York State Senate
————————-
Recklessly— recklessly
in a way that is dangerous and shows that you are not thinking about the risks and possible results of your behavior:

Criminally negligent— What Is Criminal Negligence?
Criminal negligence (sometimes called culpable negligence) refers to a defendant who acts in disregard of a serious risk of harm that a reasonable person in the same situation would have perceived. Another common definition includes an act that amounts to a gross deviation from the general standard of care.

Precisely this and end of as far as I can see. Imo if the jury applies the law as they should, there will be a conviction on one of the two charges.

In a lawful society, there is accountability. The defense can plead for mitigating circumstances at sentencing I suppose. But also there may be aggravating circumstances idk. Perhaps will weigh each other out. Will see as the trial unfolds.

All Jmo.

 

[mickey2942]

@Lilibet concise. I also have reservations regarding the chokehold. It appears that Neely was no longer a threat when he was being restrained by three people. He probably did not have to be in a chokehold.

But, I just wonder if Penny didn't realize he was actually killing Neely. I can't imagine anyone doing something that stupid deliberately.

 

[jepop]

@Lilibet concise. I also have reservations regarding the chokehold. It appears that Neely was no longer a threat when he was being restrained by three people. He probably did not have to be in a chokehold.

But, I just wonder if Penny didn't realize he was actually killing Neely. I can't imagine anyone doing something that stupid deliberately.

Yes, that's why the charges are manslaughter in the second degree and)or criminal negligence. As @Lilibet pointed out, this concerns recklessness not intent. Jmo

ETA the victim was killed and there is no self defence for the excessive chokehold which lead to his death. Moo. The defendant does not appear to believe he should be held accountable on any level. Fortunately there is the law. Jmo

 

[Ladyotm]

"Daniel Penny did ‘what we would want someone to do for us’ when he put ranting Jordan Neely in chokehold on NYC subway: lawyer"​

And it stops right there.
Penny set out to "de-escalate" what he perceived was a man he believed was going to kill someone.
He accomplished that goal when he brought JN down with a chokehold.

Penny is now on trial for keeping JN in that hold for approx, 6 mins with the help of 2 other men and killing him.

I would not want someone to kill another person because I felt scared or uncomfortable. Penny deserves to be found guilty and serve time for Neely's murder.
Has there been any report of Penny or anyone else telling Neely to cut it out or go on about his business?
6 minutes is a long time to be physically restraining. Was Penny unaware of Neely's loss of bodily functions?
I can't imagine standing around and watching someone kill another person.

 

[mickey2942]

I would not want someone to kill another person because I felt scared or uncomfortable. Penny deserves to be found guilty and serve time for Neely's murder.
Has there been any report of Penny or anyone else telling Neely to cut it out or go on about his business?
6 minutes is a long time to be physically restraining. Was Penny unaware of Neely's loss of bodily functions?
I can't imagine standing around and watching someone kill another person.

I can't cite any sources, but from experience, most people wouldn't watch. Not unlike when we see a child screaming in a store, no one glares at the parent. Most of look away, not our business.

It doesn't seem like anyone has come forward, who actually tried to physically remove Penny from the chokehold on Neely. No one wanted to get involved.

 

[Lilibet]

It doesn't seem like anyone has come forward, who actually tried to physically remove Penny from the chokehold on Neely. No one wanted to get involved.

Some of us feisty old ladies would have started hitting Penny and his assistants with our purses!

 

[Izzylizzy]

I would not want someone to kill another person because I felt scared or uncomfortable. Penny deserves to be found guilty and serve time for Neely's murder.
Has there been any report of Penny or anyone else telling Neely to cut it out or go on about his business?
6 minutes is a long time to be physically restraining. Was Penny unaware of Neely's loss of bodily functions?
I can't imagine standing around and watching someone kill another person.

Penny was warned by bystanders that he was killing JN.
One witness, Larry Goodman who testified said he was warning Penny to let go of JN but Penny appeared to be in some kind of "trance".

 

[Izzylizzy]

I can't cite any sources, but from experience, most people wouldn't watch. Not unlike when we see a child screaming in a store, no one glares at the parent. Most of look away, not our business.

It doesn't seem like anyone has come forward, who actually tried to physically remove Penny from the chokehold on Neely. No one wanted to get involved.

BBM:
I couldn't find any reporting on yesterday's trial due to the election and I'm curious about the 2 men that helped DP hold down JN and what they have to say?
Bottom line though is no matter what they may have said or not said to Penny neither one did anything to get DP to release his hold.

 

[Inthedetails]

basically illegal to move between the cars when the train is moving
View attachment 543285

NYC Transit warns against walking, riding between ...​

View attachment 543286
METRO Magazine
https://www.metro-magazine.com › nyc-transit-warns-a...




Jan 3, 2019 — It's against the rules and very dangerous to ride or walk between train cars, unless it's an emergency, or if you're directed by a police ...

and you know if everyone rushes out, the chance of some one tripping or knocking some one else down is good... so then when is it an "emergency?" You basically have to be a clairvoyant to tell when a mentally ill person is just bluffing and when s/he will haul off and hit or cut you up. IMO

The newer trains have easier access from car to car with the purpose of allowing passengers to move between cars:

 

[Ontario Mom]

Yes, that's why the charges are manslaughter in the second degree and)or criminal negligence. As @Lilibet pointed out, this concerns recklessness not intent. Jmo

ETA the victim was killed and there is no self defence for the excessive chokehold which lead to his death. Moo. The defendant does not appear to believe he should be held accountable on any level. Fortunately there is the law. Jmo

The defendant, Daniel Penny, isn't the only one who doesn't think he should be held accountable for Neely's death.
I believe it was a tragic accident that he died, although he is the one who instigated the situation by his threatening behavior and literal threats of violence to the folks on the train.

jmo

 

[Izzylizzy]

BBM:
I couldn't find any reporting on yesterday's trial due to the election and I'm curious about the 2 men that helped DP hold down JN and what they have to say?
Bottom line though is no matter what they may have said or not said to Penny neither one did anything to get DP to release his hold.

@2:00 the man who had JN's hands/arms told Penny repeatedly that he can release the chokehold now.
Penny ignored him.

 

[LinasK]

I would not want someone to kill another person because I felt scared or uncomfortable. Penny deserves to be found guilty and serve time for Neely's murder.
Has there been any report of Penny or anyone else telling Neely to cut it out or go on about his business?
6 minutes is a long time to be physically restraining. Was Penny unaware of Neely's loss of bodily functions?
I can't imagine standing around and watching someone kill another person.

Thank you and I completely agree.

 

[Snoopster]

Sometimes easier said than done. The woman with a baby in a stroller, someone with young children, an elderly person, someone with mobility issues, not always easy to just move to another car.

They were all gone off that car before Jordan died, didn't they? It's one thing to subdue someone, it's another thing to kill them.

 

[Snoopster]

@2:00 the man who had JN's hands/arms told Penny repeatedly that he can release the chokehold now.
Penny ignored him.

So sad.
Penny could have release his chokehold with no fear of repercussions to passengers, since others were there to help, yet he chose not to. He continued the chokehold until Neely was unresponsive.
He should be found guilty of killing Jordan Neely.

 

[Izzylizzy]

There was a 2 day break in the trial.
It's beginning again this morning.

Live updates:

Daniel Penny trial live updates: Subway chokehold case resumes with prosecution witnesses​

Follow The Post’s live updates from the courtroom as Daniel Penny, 26, stands trial for manslaughter after putting homeless man Jordan Neely, 30, in a chokehold onboard the subway in 2023.

nypost.com

 

[Izzylizzy]

a minute ago

Protesters call for Daniel Penny conviction outside court on third day of trial​

By Ben Kochman and Priscilla DeGregory
"As the third day of trial was set to kick off in the manslaughter trial against Daniel Penny, a group of roughly a dozen protesters were outside court holding signs saying "Justice for Jordan Neely."

"Stop calling him a damn marine! He's a cold blooded killer," one man holding a bullhorn, yelled about Penny.

Penny is now sitting at the defense table.

Daniel Penny trial live updates: Subway chokehold case resumes with prosecution witnesses

Follow The Post’s live updates from the courtroom as Daniel Penny, 26, stands trial for manslaughter after putting homeless man Jordan Neely, 30, in a chokehold onboard the subway in 2023.

nypost.com