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Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely
- Thread starter HmmMysterious
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Thanks so much.
The fact that the brain dies first and continues to be ignored.
No, they did not. They waited for Ems to get there. They did start some half azzed attempt at CPR....you know...the kind without rescue breathing. They did chest compressions while standing ( and bending at their waist) .... ZERO attempt at restoring respiration.
Thinking of @IceIce9 , our CPR instructor extraordinaire !
From these two points alone, I am moving from "not guilty" to "guilty of Manslaughter".
Successfully performing chokeholds, arm bars, and other pain compliance techniques can be far more difficult "in the wild" than in training environments- no matter who the instructor(s) are. Thus, Penny's attempted chokehold was inherently risky.
But.... instead of restraining the Neely and asking for assistance in keeping him immobile, he decides to go for the full chokehold. Ok, if (and that can be a big "if" in the wild), Penny is actually doing it correctly, the appropriate time is 13 seconds.
But... after putting the chokehold on, Penny ignores offered assistance in restraining the victim and continues to apply the chokehold for..... 6 minutes?
For me, that totality is just too much.
I could accept a fact pattern of: Ok, the victim was making a series of threats to attack people. I thought an attack was imminent. I jumped on him and repeatedly asked for assistance in restraining him. Nobody offered to help me. I was losing control of him. In desperation, I started a chokehold. I kept it on for a minute, maybe a little more- then released it. Sadly, he had passed away....
But.... the above is not the pattern here.
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"Brain death is permanent and irreversible, so it's not possible to bring someone back to life who has been brain dead:
- Definition: Brain death, also known as brain stem death, occurs when a person has no brain function and is on artificial life support. They can't breathe or regain consciousness without support.
- Legal definition: Brain death is a legal definition of death.
- Organ viability: While the brain is dead, vital organs like the heart, lungs, and kidneys can remain viable for a few days with artificial support"
IDK
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Yes hopefully she will weigh in! The human body is truly amazing, and IMO if he had been given full resuscitation immediately, the outcome may well have been different.
JN also had synthetic drugs in his system per the medical examiner. I wouldn’t be surprised if that didn’t affect his breathing, neuro status and response to rescue treatments:
“We found in the blood a synthetic cannabinoid – a relatively new drug in the scheme of drugs," she said. "They’re synthetic and more potent than marijuana. In a class of drugs, they fall under the category of stimulants – they rev the body up, fall into the same class of drugs as, say, cocaine."”
“There was no damage to bones in his chin, neck or midline structures, she said. She found scrapes and bruises on his face, neck, torso and arms, petechiae (small red spots caused by bleeding) in his eyes and damage to his spleen from sickle cell trait.”
Medical examiner says subway madman had drugs in system in Marine vet’s chokehold trial
Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg's office's last witness against Marine vet Daniel Penny is the medical examiner who conducted Jordan Neely's autopsy.
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Read what I just posted about being "brain dead".Yes hopefully she will weigh in! The human body is truly amazing, and IMO if he had been given full resuscitation immediately, the outcome may well have been different.
JN also had synthetic drugs in his system per the medical examiner. I wouldn’t be surprised if that didn’t affect his breathing, neuro status and response to rescue treatments:
“We found in the blood a synthetic cannabinoid – a relatively new drug in the scheme of drugs," she said. "They’re synthetic and more potent than marijuana. In a class of drugs, they fall under the category of stimulants – they rev the body up, fall into the same class of drugs as, say, cocaine."”
“There was no damage to bones in his chin, neck or midline structures, she said. She found scrapes and bruises on his face, neck, torso and arms, petechiae (small red spots caused by bleeding) in his eyes and damage to his spleen from sickle cell trait.”
Medical examiner says subway madman had drugs in system in Marine vet’s chokehold trial
Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg's office's last witness against Marine vet Daniel Penny is the medical examiner who conducted Jordan Neely's autopsy.
Neely had stopped breathing and wasn't breathing when cops arrived.
If the person is brought back to life they would need to be put on life supporting measures to say alive.
Had Neely been brought back Penny still would have been criminally charged maybe with aggravated assault then if Neely was taken off of life support and when he died then enter the Manslaughter 2nd degree.
Just like George Floyd, Neely also would not have died that day from drugs in his system.Yes hopefully she will weigh in! The human body is truly amazing, and IMO if he had been given full resuscitation immediately, the outcome may well have been different.
JN also had synthetic drugs in his system per the medical examiner. I wouldn’t be surprised if that didn’t affect his breathing, neuro status and response to rescue treatments:
“We found in the blood a synthetic cannabinoid – a relatively new drug in the scheme of drugs," she said. "They’re synthetic and more potent than marijuana. In a class of drugs, they fall under the category of stimulants – they rev the body up, fall into the same class of drugs as, say, cocaine."”
“There was no damage to bones in his chin, neck or midline structures, she said. She found scrapes and bruises on his face, neck, torso and arms, petechiae (small red spots caused by bleeding) in his eyes and damage to his spleen from sickle cell trait.”
Medical examiner says subway madman had drugs in system in Marine vet’s chokehold trial
Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg's office's last witness against Marine vet Daniel Penny is the medical examiner who conducted Jordan Neely's autopsy.
Had it not been for Chauvin's knee on GF's neck or Penny's chokehold both men would be alive.
As @Izzylizzy stated, putting people into various chokeholds will usually cause them to resist.
For me, the burden of proof is on Penny to show that the continued chokehold was truly necessary- not just needed in theory based on what the victim "might do", or "could" have in his possession.
I could give Penny leeway: Ok, nobody offered to assist me in retraining him, he said he had a knife, I kept the chokehold on for a minute- maybe a little more.... etc.
But... at the end of the day, if citizens want to intervene on what "might" happen (Neely actually attacking somebody), then the burden is on the intervener to do it right. Neely did not do that.
I pass by homeless everyday. I have seen several acting erratically. One went on an "f bomb", "MFers" and "SOB" rant when his panhandling failed to uhhmm.... pan out (get it, get it). He could well of made a threat or two in the rant.
What "could" the ranting homeless guy had done?. What "might" he had in his waist band? If I decide to intervene based on "mights and coulds" the burden is on me to do it right.
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"Jordan Neeley’s death was a direct result of the chokehold Daniel Penny held him in, a medical examiner testified Friday, rebutting assertions from the defense team that the former Marine did not apply enough pressure to kill the subway rider and that his death could have had some other cause.
“It’s my medical opinion that there are no alternative reasonable explanations for Mr. Neely’s death,” the medical examiner, Dr. Cynthia Harris, told jurors.
Harris classified Neely’s manner of death as a chokehold days after his killing. More than a month later, a grand jury indicted Penny on a manslaughter charge. The medical examiner testified that Neely died of asphyxiation.'
www.nbcnews.com
“It’s my medical opinion that there are no alternative reasonable explanations for Mr. Neely’s death,” the medical examiner, Dr. Cynthia Harris, told jurors.
Harris classified Neely’s manner of death as a chokehold days after his killing. More than a month later, a grand jury indicted Penny on a manslaughter charge. The medical examiner testified that Neely died of asphyxiation.'
Daniel Penny's chokehold was sole cause of Jordan Neely's death, medical examiner testifies
“It’s my medical opinion that there are no alternative reasonable explanations for Mr. Neely’s death,” the medical examiner, Dr. Cynthia Harris, told jurors Friday.
www.nbcnews.com
IDK
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From my understanding of her testimony, she mentioned brain damage not actual brain death?
I have not listened to her testimony , but would be interested if available and also if the defense presents any medical experts.
My apologies if she testified that JN was brain dead prior to restoration attempts.
“Can the brain heal after being injured?
Most studies suggest that once brain cells are destroyed or damaged, for the most part, they do not regenerate. However, recovery after brain injury can take place, especially in younger people, as, in some cases, other areas of the brain make up for the injured tissue. In other cases, the brain learns to reroute information and function around the damaged areas. The exact amount of recovery is not predictable at the time of injury and may be unknown for months or even years. Each brain injury and rate of recovery is unique. Recovery from a severe brain injury often involves a prolonged or lifelong process of treatment and rehabilitation.”
Traumatic Brain Injury
Acquired brain injury hapens when a sudden, external, physical assault damages the brain. It is one of the most common causes of disability and death in adults.
The "twitching" seen in the video of Neely's body.
"Prosecutors said that about 3 minutes and 10 seconds into the video, Neely ceases all purposeful movement.
"After that moment, Mr. Neely's movements are best described as 'twitching and the kind of agonal movement that you see around death,'" the prosecutor said"
https://abcnews.go.com/US/opening-s...-daniel-penny-trial-jordan/story?id=115213409
"Agonal movement can refer to a number of abnormal movements that can occur during the dying process"
"Agonal breaths can be associated with some shaking or other muscle movement due to the struggle for oxygen. These respirations will sound like snoring, snorting, gasping, or deep breathing. By contrast, seizures are caused by abnormal electrical activity in the brain."
Neely wasn't breathing when cops arrived and video shows the process of him being strangled to death caused by no blood to the brain.From my understanding of her testimony, she mentioned brain damage not actual brain death?
I have not listened to her testimony , but would be interested if available and also if the defense presents any medical experts.
My apologies if she testified that JN was brain dead prior to restoration attempts.
“Can the brain heal after being injured?
Most studies suggest that once brain cells are destroyed or damaged, for the most part, they do not regenerate. However, recovery after brain injury can take place, especially in younger people, as, in some cases, other areas of the brain make up for the injured tissue. In other cases, the brain learns to reroute information and function around the damaged areas. The exact amount of recovery is not predictable at the time of injury and may be unknown for months or even years. Each brain injury and rate of recovery is unique. Recovery from a severe brain injury often involves a prolonged or lifelong process of treatment and rehabilitation.”
Traumatic Brain Injury
Acquired brain injury hapens when a sudden, external, physical assault damages the brain. It is one of the most common causes of disability and death in adults.www.hopkinsmedicine.org
He was brain dead when cops arrived and motionless.
His brain was dead and a faint pulse which soon ceased is common in cardiac arrest.
Dr. Harris said. "In an asphyxial death, the brain dies first."More TK @CourthouseNews
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I think it's crystal clear that Penny believed the continued hold was truly necessary, base entirely on what JN had been threatening literally seconds prior and also based on the fear that was from all reported accounts, pretty obvious in all the passengers in close range.
jmo
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Lol I’m not extraordinary, but I can discuss a few points here.
CPR without rescue breathing is called “hands-only CPR” and American Heart Association has been promoting it for bystander CPR for several years. They have been researching “hands-only CPR” since 2005.
But- it still requires kneeling beside the victim to provide proper chest compressions. It can’t be done properly while standing or bending at the waist.
I always tell the participants in my classes that “hands-only CPR” is better than NO CPR but compressions must be performed properly for it to be effective. And it is only intended to start CPR until someone more qualified arrives to take over with compressions AND rescue breathing.
In this case it was NOT performed properly.
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I agree. Penny very likely thought "X" was needed. But.... thinking "X" was needed and actually demonstrating that "X" was truly needed can be two different things.
For me, those choosing to intervene must actually demonstrate that "X" was truly needed. Simply stating that "Well, I thought..." is not sufficient. I can still give Penny leeway- but he needs to articulate something besides "I thought". For example:
I felt a long object in his waist band- It had the same shape as a knife- so, given his threats, I went to a chokehold immediately. But... it turned out to be a plastic stick he used in his MJ impressions.
As a side note, "All reported accounts" might be too broad. I believe that witness statements varied from: "I felt that Neely was very threatening" to "Another homeless guy ranting- dont like being around it, but I did not feel threatened.
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His beliefs surely didn't line up with the reality of the situation.
imo
Wow, Well said, yet also short and too the point. I wish I could express myself like that.
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