GUILTY MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

[Izzylizzy]

I bet she’s not saying that now.
That to me was the final nail in the coffin.

I also bet she's not taking advice from cray,cray Smith.

 

[LMDlong]

Can the verdict today be used in EC‘s appeal ?

 

[Weki]

EC plead guilty to what he did. He didn’t have a trial. The only issue was sentencing - LWOP or Life with Parole. There’s a Michigan law (hence the Miller hearing) that says juveniles should not get LWOP unless there are extreme circumstances. That’s what his appeal is about. There’s no argument as to guilt. The fact that his parents failed him/abandoned him etc was all considered in his sentencing. Judge still gave him LWOP.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I think the jury had big problems with JC telling the truth so when she testified that James took the gun from her car and hid it, she didn't know where in the house it was.
If you believe that JC has been truthful throughout the trial and is telling the truth now than her hands are clean.
The problem with that is it's all the jury had,JC's testimony and no one to refute it.

What the jury did have though is evidence and testimony that JC brought the gun and ammo to the shooting range, shot the handgun and put it back in her car.
We then have her boyfriend testified that before she got to the school meeting on the 30th she told Brian that the gun was in her car.
That is 2 days after the shooting range.

The jury placed Jennifer ,by evidence admitted at trial, as the last person in possession of the gun before EC got it.


"On Thursday, Jennifer said that James was the one who put the firearm in her vehicle when she went to the gun range. She also said he was the one to take it back inside and hide it after she was done shooting with her son. In her testimony, she said she didn't know where James hid the gun and didn't ask because it was his responsibility.'

Jennifer Crumbley testifies she trusted James to handle family's guns - and not much else

Jennifer Crumbley didn't trust her husband to wake up on time or find a job, but she did trust him to be responsible for guns, according to testimony.

www.fox2detroit.com

 

[BrownRice]

I think the jury had big problems with JC telling the truth so when she testified that James took the gun from her car and hid it, she didn't know where in the house it was.
If you believe that JC has been truthful throughout the trial and is telling the truth now than her hands are clean.
The problem with that is it's all the jury had,JC's testimony and no one to refute it.

What the jury did have though is evidence and testimony that JC brought the gun and ammo to the shooting range, shot the handgun and put it back in her car.
We then have her boyfriend testified that before she got to the school meeting on the 30th she told Brian that the gun was in her car.
That is 2 days after the shooting range.

The jury placed Jennifer ,by evidence admitted at trial, as the last person in possession of the gun before EC got it.


"On Thursday, Jennifer said that James was the one who put the firearm in her vehicle when she went to the gun range. She also said he was the one to take it back inside and hide it after she was done shooting with her son. In her testimony, she said she didn't know where James hid the gun and didn't ask because it was his responsibility.'

Jennifer Crumbley testifies she trusted James to handle family's guns - and not much else

Jennifer Crumbley didn't trust her husband to wake up on time or find a job, but she did trust him to be responsible for guns, according to testimony.

www.fox2detroit.com

They should not have even considered buying a gun for a CHILD if it had to be hidden from said child. If child was mature enough to have a gun, they should be mature enough to look at a gun locked in a case.

 

[Izzylizzy]

thanks, was looking for ages, only one juror has their age listed in that link, I'll look elsewhere

The jury foreperson is 26, a hair stylist and a mom.
Does the foreperson always chair the deliberations?

Jury foreperson: Jennifer Crumbley was last adult with gun. That 'hammered it home'.

The 26-year-old hairstylist and mother described the convictions as a "very difficult." decision.

www.freep.com

 

[cujenn81]

Really surprised at the verdict — thought this would be mistrial, and glad to see that it wasn't. But, have been thinking a lot about Columbine… curious why Klebold's and Harris’ parents were never charged or were they and then charges dropped-- never went to trial? Was it because K&H are dead? idk. DK wrote a story about killing students and his teacher got alarmed and alerted his parents. strange... moo

I was just thinking about DK and his English paper earlier today. I’ve read A Mother’s Reckoning by Sue Klebold, and the most interesting part comes at the very beginning, when she describes the moment she learned about the school shooting. She almost immediately begins to worry and wonder the seemingly impossible—is her son responsible. And that’s because despite her claims to the contrary, there were plenty of red flags and his graphic story was just one of many.

Here’s an essay his English teacher wrote about how she handled the story DK wrote and how his parents responded to her concerns.

Opinion: I Taught At Columbine. It Is Time To Speak My Truth.

Dylan Klebold had written about a “god-like figure” dressed in black, brutally gunning down fraternity-type boys. The narrator seemed to revel in the graphic violence he was depicting, but it was the final passage that was particularly disturbing, where Dylan conveyed unabashed awe and reverence for the killer.

I recall the word I used to describe the horror I felt when I read their son’s work: visceral. I told them about the content of the story, the alarming imagery of people being gunned down. I told them about the disturbing tone. I shared that I had made a copy and given it to Dylan’s guidance counselor, who was at conferences as well.

Mrs Klebold has endured the unendurable, and it was hard not to sympathize with a mother in her grief. But I was unprepared to read her version of our meeting, published in O Magazine in 2009, a decade after the shootings. She wrote that at the parent-teacher conference, I never described the contents of the story that had shaken me so badly, only calling them “disturbing.”

I was astonished all over again when Mrs. Klebold then came out with an expanded set of claims in a 2016 memoir, A Mother’s Reckoning ** :** Living in the Aftermath of Tragedy. Dylan’s mother now recalls that she and her husband had only “asked for details” of the story rather than for the story itself. She claims I called the paper “shocking” but refrained from going any further, saying only that “the paper contained dark themes and some bad language.”

A Mother’s Reckoning goes on to suggest that the Klebolds asked me if they should have been concerned — and claims I said I “thought it was under control,” that I’d asked Dylan for a rewrite and “planned to show the original to Dylan’s guidance counselor,” again contradicting what both I and the guidance counselor attested earlier to having happened. The book claims I promised to call if I thought the story was “a problem,” even though I’d thought so, and said so, from the beginning. By Mrs. Klebold’s own accounting, I had already told them as much.

 

[Cool Cats]

How did EC get the gun/ammo @ 5am if it was hidden in his parent's bedroom armoire and they were sleeping?

From Ethan's time in court and JC's trial, what has been said about how Ethan got access to the gun?

The jury asked whether they could infer anything by the prosecution not bringing in the shooter, or anyone else who could answer how he got the gun.

 

[Weki]

Regarding the Columbine mom, idk about her culpability but I was disgusted that she wrote a book and went on a press tour. JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

From Ethan's time in court and JC's trial, what has been said about how Ethan got access to the gun?

The jury asked whether they could infer anything by the prosecution not bringing in the shooter, or anyone else who could answer how he got the gun.

Do you read what I had replied to?
The jury did do as instructed about evidence presented at trial and it pointed to JC.

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So in EC’s Miller hearing, the state’s psychologist testified that EC told her he set his alarm for 5 am so he could get up while his parents were asleep in order to get the gun and bullets. It’s not clear if the gun was inside the home or in the car still at that point.

It was James who ran home after the shooting and opened the gun case to check if the gun was in there. So he moved it from where it was into the kitchen or bed (I can’t recall exactly) to check it. And that’s where LE found it.

Edited to add - The gun had to have been inside the home. So I don’t know what the foreperson is talking about - what is the relevance of JC being the last person seen with the gun at the shooting range????

JMO

 

[Cedars]

… curious why Klebold's and Harris’ parents were never charged or were they and then charges dropped-- never went to trial? Was it because K&H are dead? idk. DK wrote a story about killing students and his teacher got alarmed and alerted his parents. strange... moo

To begin, it was a different time, a different state, with different circumstances, and different people in charge of legal proceedings.

So, IMO, it is not strange at all.
You can't expect consistency, when everything was different.

Maybe, now the precedent (meaning 1st time it's been done) has been established, there might be charges in future cases. But no two cases are ever identical, and so best not to expect absolute consistency in the future, either.

And, IMO, this case was not about the drawing, it was about the gun.

JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

Here we go.
The facebook message from JC to boyfriend on the morning of 11-30.
This is 2 days after JC went to the shooting range with the handgun.
JC testified that James put the gun in her car on 11-28 and when she returned from shooting range 11-28 he brought the gun into the house,
She didn't know where he put it.

Yet the evidence presented at trial tells a completely different story.

' A few hours before the shooting, Jennifer and James Crumbley were called to the school to have a meeting with counselors and the dean of students, and she messaged Meloche and told him that she was afraid her son would do something dumb.


Meloche responded by asking Jennifer Crumbley where the gun was, and she said it was in her vehicle. He told it that it shouldn't be there. '

Brian Meloche, man who had an affair with Jennifer Crumbley, testifies about messages exchanged after Oxford shooting

Brian Meloche, a friend of Jennifer Crumbley and someone she was having an affair with, testified in her trial.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[Boodles]

Can anyone point me to an archive of the trial videos day by day? I’m looking for raw coverage, not edited podcasts with podcasters narrating. I’ve been looking around, but can’t find a place. Are any of the local tv stations keeping them on their websites? TIA!

 

[Odeto BJ]

I believe the jury foreperson was referring to the (unimpeachable) video from the shooting range: Jennifer walked in the building holding the gun case....Walked out of the building holding the gun case...And put the gun case in her car. Obviously the foreperson departed before any additional context or content was forthcoming. My own thought is, that portion of the video would demonstrate realistic concern for permitting EC to have sole charge of the weapon.

In between those clips the trial evidence showed JC bought 100 rounds for the gun and EC showed that he was the one who knew how to handle the gun and the ammunition, JC did not. To me as observer, with respect to the video at the range, those incidents would have raised more concern than the fact that it was JC who took control of the pistol as they departed the range.

MOO only

 

[Luna20]

“Just don’t get caught”. That text had to be one of the most incriminating statements for JC. That’s one thing that will be different for James.

Are there any of James’s text that could be more incriminating?

 

[Cool Cats]

Edited to add - The gun had to have been inside the home. So I don’t know what the foreperson is talking about - what is the relevance of JC being the last person seen with the gun at the shooting range????

JMO

Jury finds Michigan school shooter’s mother Jennifer Crumbley guilty of manslaughter

A Michigan jury convicted a school shooter’s mother of involuntary manslaughter Tuesday in a first-of-its-kind trial to determine whether she had any responsibility in the deaths of four students in 2021. Prosecutors say Jennifer Crumbley was grossly negligent when she failed to tell Oxford...

news.yahoo.com

“You're the last adult to have possession of that gun,” assistant prosecutor Marc Keast said while cross-examining Jennifer Crumbley last week. “You saw your son shoot the last practice round before the (school) shooting on Nov. 30. You saw how he stood. ... He knew how to use the gun."

She's an adult out shooting a gun, she needs to secure that gun when she is done using it. If she rides a new bike would she leave it in the front yard and assume her husband would put it away?

........ Because bikes "are his thing?"

Well guns might be "his thing" but getting out of bed and doing chores correctly were not. She didn't trust him doing those things so why trust him to secure a deadly weapon?

 

[RickshawFan]

So in EC’s Miller hearing, the state’s psychologist testified that EC told her he set his alarm for 5 am so he could get up while his parents were asleep in order to get the gun and bullets. It’s not clear if the gun was inside the home or in the car still at that point.

It was James who ran home after the shooting and opened the gun case to check if the gun was in there. So he moved it from where it was into the kitchen or bed (I can’t recall exactly) to check it. And that’s where LE found it.

Edited to add - The gun had to have been inside the home. So I don’t know what the foreperson is talking about - what is the relevance of JC being the last person seen with the gun at the shooting range????

JMO

AFAIK The juror didn’t reference the shooting range, but just that JC was the last adult to be in possession of the gun.

 

[RickshawFan]

I was just thinking about DK and his English paper earlier today. I’ve read A Mother’s Reckoning by Sue Klebold, and the most interesting part comes at the very beginning, when she describes the moment she learned about the school shooting. She almost immediately begins to worry and wonder the seemingly impossible—is her son responsible. And that’s because despite her claims to the contrary, there were plenty of red flags and his graphic story was just one of many.

Here’s an essay his English teacher wrote about how she handled the story DK wrote and how his parents responded to her concerns.

Opinion: I Taught At Columbine. It Is Time To Speak My Truth.

Dylan Klebold had written about a “god-like figure” dressed in black, brutally gunning down fraternity-type boys. The narrator seemed to revel in the graphic violence he was depicting, but it was the final passage that was particularly disturbing, where Dylan conveyed unabashed awe and reverence for the killer.

I recall the word I used to describe the horror I felt when I read their son’s work: visceral. I told them about the content of the story, the alarming imagery of people being gunned down. I told them about the disturbing tone. I shared that I had made a copy and given it to Dylan’s guidance counselor, who was at conferences as well.

Mrs Klebold has endured the unendurable, and it was hard not to sympathize with a mother in her grief. But I was unprepared to read her version of our meeting, published in O Magazine in 2009, a decade after the shootings. She wrote that at the parent-teacher conference, I never described the contents of the story that had shaken me so badly, only calling them “disturbing.”

I was astonished all over again when Mrs. Klebold then came out with an expanded set of claims in a 2016 memoir, A Mother’s Reckoning ** :** Living in the Aftermath of Tragedy. Dylan’s mother now recalls that she and her husband had only “asked for details” of the story rather than for the story itself. She claims I called the paper “shocking” but refrained from going any further, saying only that “the paper contained dark themes and some bad language.”

A Mother’s Reckoning goes on to suggest that the Klebolds asked me if they should have been concerned — and claims I said I “thought it was under control,” that I’d asked Dylan for a rewrite and “planned to show the original to Dylan’s guidance counselor,” again contradicting what both I and the guidance counselor attested earlier to having happened. The book claims I promised to call if I thought the story was “a problem,” even though I’d thought so, and said so, from the beginning. By Mrs. Klebold’s own accounting, I had already told them as much.

I read that book, and was appalled at all the red flags the Klebold mom refused to see. The parents were very indulgent IMO and, like JC, the mom is in denial about her role. Completely oblivious. She blames the other teen almost entirely. She’s fixated on her perfection as a parent. Even her reaction to the murders seems shallow and vacant.

But all the red flags the Klebold mom closed her eyes to, were details that contributed to a cult mentality for many would-be school shooters. So, her sons behavior—as well as her own—have metastasized into all the school shootings we have now. If only those parents had been held accountable.

The shooting at Oxford most reminds me of is Thurston High in Springfield OR in 1998. Kip Kinkel was “hearing voices” (which the parents didn’t address), clearly depressed, and they bought him a gun. Although I don’t recall the incessant cries for help that we’ve had in Ethan’s case, the parents clearly didn’t handle his mental issues. Kip killed them and students. It turns out, he has schizophrenia.

 

[Lilibet]

The shooting at Oxford most reminds me of is Thurston High in Springfield OR in 1998. Kip Kinkel was “hearing voices” (which the parents didn’t address), clearly depressed, and they bought him a gun. Although I don’t recall the incessant cries for help that we’ve had in Ethan’s case, the parents clearly didn’t handle his mental issues. Kip killed them and students. It turns out, he has schizophrenia.

You’re right that there were no incessant cries for help from Kip Kinkel. In fairness to Kip’s parents, he didn’t tell them he was hearing voices, nor did he tell the counselor his mother sent him to when he got in trouble with some other kids. He didn’t want to be viewed as “retarded.” He did end up on an antidepressant for three months and then stopped. His father did let him pay for a gun and they went shooting together “to bond.” And, of course, his parents lost their lives to him.

It’s a tragic story. I only hope EC can be rehabilitated to the same degree Kip has apparently been.

Kip Kinkel Is Ready To Speak

At 15, he shot and killed his parents, two classmates at his school, and wounded 25 others. He’s been used as the reason to lock kids up for life ever since.

www.huffpost.com

 

[cottonweaver]

So in EC’s Miller hearing, the state’s psychologist testified that EC told her he set his alarm for 5 am so he could get up while his parents were asleep in order to get the gun and bullets. It’s not clear if the gun was inside the home or in the car still at that point.

It was James who ran home after the shooting and opened the gun case to check if the gun was in there. So he moved it from where it was into the kitchen or bed (I can’t recall exactly) to check it. And that’s where LE found it.

Edited to add - The gun had to have been inside the home. So I don’t know what the foreperson is talking about - what is the relevance of JC being the last person seen with the gun at the shooting range????

JMO

So EC was no clearer either? It's just that it was 5am. Ok but the state never claimed that parents saw or knew he had taken the gun. ( just that it was a foreseeable risk as evidenced by James's panic to check gun was still at home)
Jennifer already testified that the gun was in the home ' because my husband told me' it was

The foreperson's answer to the reporter's question:

GUILTY - MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* *teen guilty* #6

One crucial factor that we found out from JC's testimony was when she said that when she got home from Black Friday shopping she was angry that James & EC weren't home yet because they delayed getting their Christmas tree. Not angry because James and EC were purchasing a semi-automatic handgun...

www.websleuths.com

It's hard to know for certain from a one-liner, what the JFP meant but I took her to mean that as far as the jury were concerned, JC was the last person seen - in evidence - handling the gun. TV producer then adds the CCTV image of JC carrying the gun in the case out of the shooting range, guessing that JFP meant that.

If the jury were hung-up on this point I wonder if they went & reviewed Jennifer's testimony on this point? IMO it doesn't stand up to scrutiny
( Also, because the judge told them they had to watch an entire testimony all over again, if they wanted to check a phrase or a point - it probably contributed to the deliberations? Two and a half hours testimony?)

at 3.29 timestamp ( worth re-watching through to 6m ' we can handle injuries' & how she instantly guessed he was a school shooter which is a point that's been discussed a lot on WS during the trial days.
' my husband phoned and asked me where I hid the bullets and that the gun was gone'

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prior to that clip, her explanations on gun & ammo storage at 1hr 06 and returning from the gun range. How would you react as a juror to this testimony? Convincing to you?

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