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NY - Jordan Neely, killed by chokehold in subway during mental health crisis, Manhattan, 1 May 2023 *arrest*
- Thread starter HmmMysterious
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If I were on a subway train car and some dude started yelling threatening, violent stuff (yes, even if he didn't do a single thing but rip his jacket off and throw it on the floor), I wouldn't care if he was white, black or purple with polkadots, I'd most certainly be frightened.
The jacket throw-down to me, is a very intentional move to say "come on" and challenge anyone that got in his way.
That plus him saying he'd take a bullet, didn't care about a life sentence, and would kill MF'ers? I mean, who exactly was he going to kill? And get a life sentence for what, exactly?
How is it being downplayed so much that this is VIOLENT language from a very, very mentally ill person WITH a history of actual violence and arrests for actuall violent assaults. No, no one knew Neely's history before the tragic event but no one present in that moment on that train car needed to know his history, they witnessed his violent, threatening outburst first hand. Neely showed people who he was, and apparently they believed him.
Being frightened is just plain old common sense & a perfectly natural reaction, not some form of hidden racism or prejudice. I don't believe for a second this is about race, no matter how many keep insisting it is.
jmo
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I haven't, but that's a really good question.
How do the majority of New Yorkers feel about this?
I'd love to know.
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The way I see it is that unless we can go back in time and read Penny's thoughts at that moment in time we can only speculate on what his motivation was for taking action. Such as...
1) believing Neely was a danger to other passengers
2) unconcious/conscious racial bias
3) previous encounters with someone having a mental health crisis or someon out of control with anger and Penny did not take action and the person harmed themselves or others ?
4) perhaps when he was active duty he was deployed to an unstable area and reacted to Neely almost instinctivly from Marine training ?
5) perhaps Penny has undiagnosed PTSD from previous experience with someone mentally ill, anger issues, or active duty deployments
6) perhaps it was a tragic accident because Penny was not consicously aware of the amount of time he had held Neely or believed Neely became still because he had stopped fighting and never imagined it was because Neely stopped breathing
I am sure there are other possible motivations that are far removed from Penny's actions being racially motivated or playing a Hero Rambo on the subway
IMO
1) believing Neely was a danger to other passengers
2) unconcious/conscious racial bias
3) previous encounters with someone having a mental health crisis or someon out of control with anger and Penny did not take action and the person harmed themselves or others ?
4) perhaps when he was active duty he was deployed to an unstable area and reacted to Neely almost instinctivly from Marine training ?
5) perhaps Penny has undiagnosed PTSD from previous experience with someone mentally ill, anger issues, or active duty deployments
6) perhaps it was a tragic accident because Penny was not consicously aware of the amount of time he had held Neely or believed Neely became still because he had stopped fighting and never imagined it was because Neely stopped breathing
I am sure there are other possible motivations that are far removed from Penny's actions being racially motivated or playing a Hero Rambo on the subway
IMO
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Very graciously stated. Thank you for these thoughts.
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A police officer in New Jersey attempted to arrest a disorderly man at a mall. The man somehow got the cop in a chokehold. A bystander who watched the situation unfold stepped in to help the cop before everything went south. The bystander understood, just like the cop who lost his advantage, that a chokehold can kill you. Robert Fitzpatrick who had training in jujitsu, said, "Even the suspect, he walks away and he deals with justice and the courts. The officer goes home to his family. It feels like all around the board, that's a win for every body".
6abc.com
Why didn't Penny know that chokeholds kill considering he was trained by the Marines? All the literature supports that a chokehold administered too long will kill the victim. All the training supports that chokeholds administered too long will kill the victim.
Unintended consequences play out every day, every where, from some kid bemoaning "I didn't mean to break the window" while shooting pucks at the garage door to drunk drivers who didn't mean to kill the pedestrian to a well trained Marine who didn't mean to kill a man using a lethal chokehold. Actions do have consequences whatever your intent.
Full disclosure here: In my opinion, one of the greatest miscarriages of justice was the minute George Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon Martin but did anyway. In a just world, to paraphrase Mr. Fitzpatrick, "Zimmerman, he walks away and waits for law enforcement. Trayvon goes home to his family. It feels like all around the board, that's a win for every body". MOO
Police: Bystander comes to aid of police officer put in chokehold by man during mall struggle
Police say the man refused to leave, took a fighting stance and during a struggle put a chokehold on the officer, "effectively cutting off" his blood and oxygen supply.
Why didn't Penny know that chokeholds kill considering he was trained by the Marines? All the literature supports that a chokehold administered too long will kill the victim. All the training supports that chokeholds administered too long will kill the victim.
Unintended consequences play out every day, every where, from some kid bemoaning "I didn't mean to break the window" while shooting pucks at the garage door to drunk drivers who didn't mean to kill the pedestrian to a well trained Marine who didn't mean to kill a man using a lethal chokehold. Actions do have consequences whatever your intent.
Full disclosure here: In my opinion, one of the greatest miscarriages of justice was the minute George Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon Martin but did anyway. In a just world, to paraphrase Mr. Fitzpatrick, "Zimmerman, he walks away and waits for law enforcement. Trayvon goes home to his family. It feels like all around the board, that's a win for every body". MOO
<modsnip: No need to personalize>
The full quote that you edited from my post reads as follows:
“Having those unexamined feelings doesn’t make us white supremacists in the blatant sense of the word. But they can cause us to think or act in a way that betrays a sense of superiority when under pressure. We all do well to ask ourselves if we are frightened by a mentally ill white man or a mentally ill man of any color who lives in a house or any homeless person or POC at all. Are we willing to be honest with ourselves and admit that color or apparent poverty or mental illness may make a difference in our thinking or action?”
My point was that we need to examine what is causing our fears. In the case of Neely, his words and actions were frightening, as I stated clearly in my post. Many people (but not you, apparently) fear people for a variety of reasons (homelessness, color, mental illness) and react to those issues, rather than just to the actions of the person. So, my point was that we all, including Penny, are wise to examine our personal biases and prejudices so that we are not simply reacting to someone we deem generally frightening without evidence. It is too easy to be carried away by fear.
To be clear, I agree that Mr Neely behaved in a frightening way. But the debate here on the thread seems to be whether or not his actions rose to the level of actually threatening anyone specifically or was it a general rant that his life was pointless and painful and he’d be happy to be dead. Yes, that could be considered a threat that he would kill in order to commit suicide by cop. Unfortunately, Penny helped him along in his apparent wish without assessing whether there was a direct threat to anyone in that car. He didn’t restrain him safely and wait for LE.
JMO
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I agree with this statement 100% - i.e., that "It is almost always advisable to get away from a person who makes you feel uncomfortable". Most definitely yes. None of us should feel we need to stay in a situation that is uncomfortable - especially if we feel that we are being threatened.
But, the sad reality is that you don't know what will happen if you get up & leave the situation. Unless you're getting off at your subway stop, leaving will mean going to another car and/or another seat - and the unhinged person may follow you.
The only thing I can say here is that you need to react to this on a case-by-case basis. I.e., if you evaluate the situation & think you can leave without the person following you, do so - but keep an eagle eye on them.
As was seen in the recent posted video where the perp. on the NYC subway grabbed the woman's hair (that he was sitting next to) as she was trying to get up & leave...right before that happened another woman seated nearby visibly moved away from the perp. - but didn't actually get up out of her seat & move to another car.
Circling back to this case - unless we were in that subway car with JN & DP - we don't really know to what extent the passengers were concerned about JN. Were all/most too scared to move, because they were concerned about retaliation?! Or, were some concerned - and others not too concerned?! Presumably at least some of the passengers lived in NYC & had taken the train before - so they would have certainly encountered homeless, unhinged people in the past.
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A police officer in New Jersey attempted to arrest a disorderly man at a mall. The man somehow got the cop in a chokehold. A bystander who watched the situation unfold stepped in to help the cop before everything went south. The bystander understood, just like the cop who lost his advantage, that a chokehold can kill you. Robert Fitzpatrick who had training in jujitsu, said, "Even the suspect, he walks away and he deals with justice and the courts. The officer goes home to his family. It feels like all around the board, that's a win for every body".
Police: Bystander comes to aid of police officer put in chokehold by man during mall struggle
Police say the man refused to leave, took a fighting stance and during a struggle put a chokehold on the officer, "effectively cutting off" his blood and oxygen supply.
Why didn't Penny know that chokeholds kill considering he was trained by the Marines? All the literature supports that a chokehold administered too long will kill the victim. All the training supports that chokeholds administered too long will kill the victim.
Unintended consequences play out every day, every where, from some kid bemoaning "I didn't mean to break the window" while shooting pucks at the garage door to drunk drivers who didn't mean to kill the pedestrian to a well trained Marine who didn't mean to kill a man using a lethal chokehold. Actions do have consequences whatever your intent.
Full disclosure here: In my opinion, one of the greatest miscarriages of justice was the minute George Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon Martin but did anyway. In a just world, to paraphrase Mr. Fitzpatrick, "Zimmerman, he walks away and waits for law enforcement. Trayvon goes home to his family. It feels like all around the board, that's a win for every body". MOO
Thank you for this excellent post. I agree with every word.
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I don't know if NYTimes is allowed. Please remove if not. Just a little bit about both men.
www.nytimes.com
How Two Men’s Disparate Paths Crossed in a Killing on the F Train (Published 2023)
Jordan Neely’s mental health decline played out in public after his mother was strangled. Daniel Penny said he was protecting himself and others when he choked Mr. Neely.
Although I have only ridden the NYC subway as a tourist and don’t have the vast experience New Yorkers have, I agree with you that anyone needs to evaluate a situation on a case-by-case basis, being alert to possible repercussions. In the video you mention, the one woman was able to slide over on the seat to get away from the man. The woman whose hair was grabbed had a pole in her way and had to stand up to get away. I thought she handled it well. She could have fought him, but she stayed relatively calm. He wasn’t being violent except for holding her hair (very scary), so she didn’t escalate and neither did anyone in the car. Someone coming to her rescue at that point could have easily made things worse. Hopefully, someone would have stepped in had he threatened her with anything more violent.
We don’t know (yet) whether Mr Neely’s rant and throwing down his jacket constituted a direct threat to anyone. If he could be ignored at that point, it was probably better than getting up to leave. As a mere tourist, ignoring would have been my reaction, unless I was sitting nearby and ideally offering water, food or money had seemed like it would de-escalate before he totally escalated. But being frightened without there being a direct threat is not IMO a reason to move on him, as Penny did. It could easily have ended just as it did in the hair-holding video with no real harm done had everyone remained calm and watchful.
JMO
I don't know if NYTimes is allowed. Please remove if not. Just a little bit about both men.
How Two Men’s Disparate Paths Crossed in a Killing on the F Train (Published 2023)
Jordan Neely’s mental health decline played out in public after his mother was strangled. Daniel Penny said he was protecting himself and others when he choked Mr. Neely.
It’s behind a paywall for those of us who don’t subscribe, so it’s probably not allowed. Report your post and ask.
BBM. Penny was a highly trained Marine so of course he knew a chokehold can kill someone. But, afaik, there is no specific time in which death will result. From the video, it appeared to me that Penny released the hold as soon as JN stopped resisting.A police officer in New Jersey attempted to arrest a disorderly man at a mall. The man somehow got the cop in a chokehold. A bystander who watched the situation unfold stepped in to help the cop before everything went south. The bystander understood, just like the cop who lost his advantage, that a chokehold can kill you. Robert Fitzpatrick who had training in jujitsu, said, "Even the suspect, he walks away and he deals with justice and the courts. The officer goes home to his family. It feels like all around the board, that's a win for every body".
Police: Bystander comes to aid of police officer put in chokehold by man during mall struggle
Police say the man refused to leave, took a fighting stance and during a struggle put a chokehold on the officer, "effectively cutting off" his blood and oxygen supply.
Why didn't Penny know that chokeholds kill considering he was trained by the Marines? All the literature supports that a chokehold administered too long will kill the victim. All the training supports that chokeholds administered too long will kill the victim.
Unintended consequences play out every day, every where, from some kid bemoaning "I didn't mean to break the window" while shooting pucks at the garage door to drunk drivers who didn't mean to kill the pedestrian to a well trained Marine who didn't mean to kill a man using a lethal chokehold. Actions do have consequences whatever your intent.
Full disclosure here: In my opinion, one of the greatest miscarriages of justice was the minute George Zimmerman was told not to follow Trayvon Martin but did anyway. In a just world, to paraphrase Mr. Fitzpatrick, "Zimmerman, he walks away and waits for law enforcement. Trayvon goes home to his family. It feels like all around the board, that's a win for every body". MOO
JMO
As has been pointed out, Mr Neely was resisting the chokehold (as any of us would) in order to maintain his oxygen supply. He stopped resisting when he was dying or dead and had no more need for air. Penny held the chokehold for longer than the time necessary or safe (a few seconds) to render Mr Neely unconscious. All Penny needed to know from his training was that a chokehold is very brief and very dangerous. He didn’t need to know how long it would take to kill Mr Neely. But it appears from the video that he was willing to ignore advice and find out.
JMO
BBM. I have no idea why he was resisting but I do believe resisting would use more oxygen, not less. The video I saw showed Penny releasing JN when he stopped resisting. JN then attempted to get up and then collapsed.
I look forward to evidence at trial.
JMO
He stopped resisting because he died!
Mr Neely won’t be at the trial to explain why he resisted, unfortunately. However, I don’t believe anyone would lie still passively when their oxygen is being cut off, telling themselves that struggling uses more oxygen. I’m not sure why the instinct for survival is hard to understand. He was clearly dying when he stopped resisting and, despite attempting to get up, he collapsed and died soon after.
Chokehold - Wikipedia
In law enforcement the goal is to force an uncooperative subject to submit without causing death or permanent injury. In this situation it is vital to distinguish between air and blood chokes. A hold that simultaneously blocks both the left and right carotid arteries results in cerebral ischemia and loss of consciousness within seconds. If properly applied, the hold produces almost immediate cessation of resistance. However to avoid injury the hold cannot be maintained more than a few seconds. When pressure on the carotids is released, the flow of oxygenated blood resumes immediately and consciousness slowly returns.
* WEBSLEUTHERS—PLEASE NOTE THAT STRUGGLING WILL CONTINUE WITH AN AIRWAY CHOKEHOLD:*
In contrast, if the airway rather than the carotid arteries is blocked, the subject cannot breathe, but his brain is still perfused with blood and he will remain conscious and may continue to struggle for a minute or more; he will lose consciousness only when the oxygen in the circulating blood is consumed and he collapses from hypoxia. Even if the hold is released at this point, the blood circulating through the brain contains no oxygen, and consequently the subject may not regain consciousness or resume spontaneous breathing. Possibly the most important element of training for the use of chokeholds in law enforcement is the understanding that the subject should always be able to breathe freely. The operator uses his right arm to compress both sides of the subject's neck, assisted by the pressure of his left hand, while his elbow, sharply flexed and centered over the midline, places no pressure on the trachea.[9]
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Honest questions …..
Why do so many people think JN’s race is important? I’m struggling to keep up but don’t remember reading that anything race specific happened, or was said.
For the folks that think NYC dropped the ball or didn’t do enough for JN, besides jail what else could they do? Obviously forcing mental health help, or medication can’t be done.
Why do so many people think JN’s race is important? I’m struggling to keep up but don’t remember reading that anything race specific happened, or was said.
For the folks that think NYC dropped the ball or didn’t do enough for JN, besides jail what else could they do? Obviously forcing mental health help, or medication can’t be done.
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