NY - UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson fatally shot in Midtown. #11 *Arrest*

[Marantz4250b]

This is all very well but just how, precisely, is this going to work in practice? His defence team cannot suggest to the jury that they let him off even if they think he's guilty. They'll end up struck-off and likely in jail.

The prosecution is going to show up at court with all their mountains of evidence so just how does his team counter that? They can't very well do a Lieutenant George with ....oh go on, let him off, please, after all it's a lovely day, blue skies, pretty birds...

Sorry but I think this whole thing about jury nullification is a non-starter. As someone has already said, juries tend to take their oath seriously and usually end up doing the right thing. And, as I have pointed out - how is this going to look if they simply let him off in the face of overwhelming evidence? Surely they'd be saying that it's perfectly acceptable for someone who was close to BT to come along and shoot them as they're leaving the court? It's utter madness and I don't think it'll happen.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Short of insanity, what can his attorney possibly argue in his defense?

Like him or hate him, virtually everyone accepts that he did it.

What does an attorney do with a case like that?

Dress alike?

I'm not even sure an insanity defence will fly, tbh. If the defence is anything similar to the way it works here they'd need to demonstrate that he had no understanding that his actions were criminal. The evidence we already have seems to strongly disprove that. I mean making an off the books illegal gun that no one knows about it just the start of it.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I'm not even sure an insanity defence will fly, tbh. If the defence is anything similar to the way it works here they'd need to demonstrate that he had no understanding that his actions were criminal. The evidence we already have seems to strongly disprove that. I mean making an off the books illegal gun that no one knows about it just the start of it.

Agree … he was NOT legally “insane” as will be proved by his long term planning, making the gun and knowing right from wrong (don’t use a bomb & kill innocent people).

His MH will only help at sentencing in regards to where he is incarcerated… though many many in prison are MH and taking medication, or not taking. So not going make any difference to his being found directly responsible for BT murder.

 

[Charlot123]

That's not correct, though. Yes, the just has to be representative of the population but it's job is not to represent the views of society in general. It is instructed as to what the law is and then to apply the evidence to it and conclude whether the defendant is guilty or not. LM may be viewed by 90% of the population as close to a saint but that is irrelevant as far as the just are supposed to decide.

As I've said, I don't see any great fear of the jury refusing to convict him because they want to send a message. Those concerns are wildly over blown, imo.

Such cases had very different endings before (see Vera Zasulich.) Watching this case is interesting for many reasons.

 

[stanerd]

IMO, a plea deal will probably take place - life with possible parole after 20+ years for the federal charges, death penalty taken off table; murder 2 with possible parole after 20+ years for state charges; federal and state sentences run concurrently; he does his time at a high level USP; Brian Thompson's family shows up for each parole hearing and parole is denied until LM is in his 60s and he is released; most people won't care at that point, kind of like when Hinckley was released.

If it goes to trial, I don't see how a sane jury wouldn't convict. I think the death penalty is a stretch, so probably life without parole if a jury convicts for the federal charges. For state, murder 1 is a stretch, but he'd probably be convicted for murder 2 and get the max 25 to life.

IMO, if LM were smart, he'd take a plea deal and not count on a member of his fan club making it on the jury. Yeah, an OJ situation could take place where the jury ignores the evidence and acquits, but it's not likely. Of course, LM does have a high power defense attorney representing him, so who know what kinds of rabbits she can pull out of hats.

I feel the most sorry for Brian Thompson's family, but I also feel sorry for LM's family in a way. Spending $40k per year for private high school, hundreds of thousands for ivy league university, and now probably hundreds of thousands for a defense attorney just for LM to probably spend most, if not all, of the rest of his life in a cage. I can't imagine how ashamed of him they must be.

 

[NuttMegg]

This is all very well but just how, precisely, is this going to work in practice? His defence team cannot suggest to the jury that they let him off even if they think he's guilty. They'll end up struck-off and likely in jail.

The prosecution is going to show up at court with all their mountains of evidence so just how does his team counter that? They can't very well do a Lieutenant George with ....oh go on, let him off, please, after all it's a lovely day, blue skies, pretty birds...

Sorry but I think this whole thing about jury nullification is a non-starter. As someone has already said, juries tend to take their oath seriously and usually end up doing the right thing. And, as I have pointed out - how is this going to look if they simply let him off in the face of overwhelming evidence? Surely they'd be saying that it's perfectly acceptable for someone who was close to BT to come along and shoot them as they're leaving the court? It's utter madness and I don't think it'll happen.

Reisch is a famous defense attorney, so that's the slant we'll get from him. He mocked the notion of terrorism, said the state should concentrate on 2nd deg, mentioned that juries are so well screened, ie reviewed past social media, that it is hard to think of nullification. Towards the end he summed up by saying LM's best chance to see the light of day is a well-crafted plea deal.

 

[detective.moon]

Will Luigi Mangione's terrorism charge hold up? Legal analysts weigh in

Mangione, 26, faces multiple charges, including terrorism-related murder, in UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson's death.

www.newsweek.com

some more expert opinions that all contradict each other!

all the what ifs are interesting, my guess for now is the verdict will end up somewhere in between (no jury nullification, no death penalty, a very long prison sentence)

 

[Betty P]

Luigi Mangione's legal strategy ​

(NPR)​

https://www.npr.org/2024/12/27/nx-s1-5238351/luigi-mangiones-legal-strategy

Interesting that they speculated the prosecution is using the “terrorism” enhancement to pressure Luigi to accept a plea deal. It sounds as though the health insurance industry doesn’t want a trial and all the publicity that goes with it.

 

[tlcya]

Agree … he was NOT legally “insane” as will be proved by his long term planning, making the gun and knowing right from wrong (don’t use a bomb & kill innocent people).

His MH will only help at sentencing in regards to where he is incarcerated… though many many in prison are MH and taking medication, or not taking. So not going make any difference to his being found directly responsible for BT murder.

yes, agree with you and others, even if it is found that LM is clinically insane, I don't think there is a shot in hades of him being declared legally insane. He knew what he was doing, planned the murder carefully, and had the wherewithal to attempt to evade the police afterwards. He is toast. MOO

 

[GRT]

I'm not even sure an insanity defence will fly, tbh. If the defence is anything similar to the way it works here they'd need to demonstrate that he had no understanding that his actions were criminal. The evidence we already have seems to strongly disprove that. I mean making an off the books illegal gun that no one knows about it just the start of it.

I don't think an insanity defense will fly either; I'm just pointing out that the evidence seems stacked against him if he continues with the not-guilty plea.

Jury nullification may also be a non-starter, but according to legal experts, it's more of a risk with this case than it has been in other recent cases.

If he doesn't plea bargain—and there is no jury nullification—I could see a hung jury and mistrial—perhaps more than one.

All MOO

 

[Tiff23fr]

From the article below:
He never thought that he'd be in the feds,' Levine said. 'He's acclimating himself to his new surroundings. His lawyers are thanking God he's in New York, and they don't have to travel to Pennsylvania to visit him.

IMO- I don’t agree with the thoughts above. LE has revealed his intentions to cross state lines. He wanted to land right where he is with the FEDS.

Luigi Mangione set to move in close to Diddy in Brooklyn prison

Luigi Mangione and Sean 'Diddy' Combs are set to become neighbors in Brooklyn's most notorious prison.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Pro-Luigi Mangione punks vandalize Jeffrey Epstein’s former NYC mansion with message found on alleged assassin’s bullets

Across the front door, the goons scribbled the three words now synonymous with Mangione’s name.

nypost.com

 

[Tiff23fr]

@otto here are some additional timeline data points related to LM’s life events in the time right up to planning murder

May 15, 2024 LM’s family home is listed on market.
June 6, 2024 home sales $46k over ask.


Luigi Mangione Grew Up in Charming $800K Childhood Home With Real Estate Heir Father—as He's Charged With UnitedHealthcare CEO's Murder

 

[girlhasnoname]

Interesting - This was LM's attorney's words BEFORE she was hired to represent him:

<snipped & BBM>

“It looks to me like there might be a not guilty by reason of insanity defense that they’re going to be thinking about because the evidence is going to be so overwhelming that he did what he did,” she said on December 10.

“As a former prosecutor in that office, I would be concerned that you have someone who is a valedictorian of his class, he was brilliant his whole life, he comes from this great family. I mean, something changed, significantly, something changed. And they’re going to potentially have a not guilty by reason of insanity potential defense, so the prosecutors are going to try to shore that up as well in their investigation.”

The husband-wife legal team working on two of today’s biggest criminal cases

MOO

 

[BrianJohnson]

If there is jury nullification would he walk free or would there be a retrial with a different jury?

 

[stanerd]

IMO- I don’t agree with the thoughts above. LE has revealed his intentions to cross state lines. He wanted to land right where he is with the FEDS.

I agree. Didn't he write something about the feds in his manifesto? There's a widely held belief that federal prisons are cushy, but that's mainly for white collar criminals who are sent to federal minimum security prison camps. Murderers and other violent criminals are usually sent to high level USPs where gang violence is an issue. Remember that Derek Chauvin was stabbed in federal prison, so it's not like spending time at a resort.

 

[al66pine]

Sweater?

.... On LM legal bill will be every second spent sourcing the sweater by a paralegal, even the time spent cutting off the price tag....

snipped for focus @Baby baby Jane

After trial is the sweater dry-cleaned & tucked away in the law firm's Props-for-Clients closet?

ETA: W the sweater folded neatly, sitting next to the Bibles for clients to carry into courtroom?

 

[girlhasnoname]

If there is jury nullification would he walk free or would there be a retrial with a different jury?

No retrial. If all jurors vote to acquit, the defendant cannot be tried again for the same crime as it would constitute double jeopardy. Therefore, when nullification of this sort occurs, the decision is final.

JMO

Understanding Jury Nullification: Definition, Examples, And Implications

 

[NuttMegg]

Sweater?

snipped for focus @Baby baby Jane

After trial is the sweater dry-cleaned & tucked away in the law firm's Props-for-Clients closet?

I had one of those burgundy sweater/white shirt get ups before either of them was born. Llbeaner. Actually I'd buy both again. Not a very innovative style or (usually) headline grabbing fashion statement. Truth be, I think that untucked shirt under a sweater is eyerollable, at least sticking out as long as that of the atty. Teenagerish.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Interesting - This was LM's attorney's words BEFORE she was hired to represent him:

<snipped & BBM>

“It looks to me like there might be a not guilty by reason of insanity defense that they’re going to be thinking about because the evidence is going to be so overwhelming that he did what he did,” she said on December 10.

“As a former prosecutor in that office, I would be concerned that you have someone who is a valedictorian of his class, he was brilliant his whole life, he comes from this great family. I mean, something changed, significantly, something changed. And they’re going to potentially have a not guilty by reason of insanity potential defense, so the prosecutors are going to try to shore that up as well in their investigation.”

The husband-wife legal team working on two of today’s biggest criminal cases

MOO

It's all very well stating all those things about how he was top of the class, was brilliant at everything and came from a good family and suchlike. That doesn't mean, however, that he hasn't been an evil, narcissistic raging psychopath his whole life. The two are completely unconnected and the statement "something changed" is pure speculation.

Even his own mother is reputed to have said it's something I could see him doing . That might be untrue, of course.

 

[tlcya]

I found nothing wrong with either defendant or counsel's attire. Both were court appropriate. No clue if the colors matching (or close to because different shades IMO) was planned or coincidental. However, counsel's wardrobe choices are the least of my concern as I watch this case play out. JMO