NY - UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson fatally shot in Midtown. #11 *Arrest*

[Friday Fan]

Thanks, I wondered if say 11 found him guilty and one said no because they hate the healthcare industry/fancies LM, whether it could be declared a mistrial or something and held again

It's a "not guilty" verdict. Unless the judge intervenes before a verdict is read, it is not a hung jury. No, he cannot be tried for the same charge by New York again. He can be tried by the feds however.

 

[BrianJohnson]

It's a "not guilty" verdict. Unless the judge intervenes before a verdict is read, it is not a hung jury. No, he cannot be tried for the same charge by New York again. He can be tried by the feds however.

Thanks, imho he should plead guilty and just do his time, if he walks free what future does he have? no chance of ever working again, his family don’t seem to want to know him (not a single visit so far) and he will always be fearing a revenge attack (if someone killed my father or someone close to me and walked free I would do whatever it takes to avenge that if the justice system didn’t)

In jail he will get free healthcare too

 

[Sundog]

IMO for the family to show up in court serves no purpose other than opening up a" can of worms' for them and creates a total media circus/CF.

If I am the Mom and show up in court - my picture gets splashed internationally and everybody chats about my outfit and speculates the hell out of everything else.. How is that helpful for the son.
I imagine the family is working behind the scenes and in touch with him. Why wouldn't they be. Family is family. They don't have to condone his abhorrent behavior to be supportive of him by buying him the best legal counsel etc.
IIRC the family likes their privacy, not much about them has been in the media, why would they now decide to not like their privacy. The son grew up in that family and best knows who they are and how things are likely to go.
Some have said he looked around the court like he was looking for his family. Sure, maybe. or maybe not. We know very little about the entire family dynamic.
I do think he is now on medication. If you watch him closely, esp in court
with his lawyer, hIs facial expressions do not always match what is occuring and he seemed a bit out of it to me.
Was he on medication before he decided to go off the grid and concoct his plan? Is there a diagnosis? Maybe.
We will have to wait to see how things unfold but I still think this is headed for a plea - no question in my mind.
Just my current thoughts IMO

I think if any of the family members decide to show up in court, it will be during the trial (if there is a trial). Their purpose would be to show the jury that LM has family support and I think they would tolerate the public media circus in order to help their son during a trial. Right now there is no reason to be there, no jury involved yet, and too early in the process. LM's lawyer can help them communicate if he wants to and if the family members want to.

LM's mother likely needs her own attorney in case it does go to trial and she is called as a witness regarding the comment she made to the FBI when confronted with LM's photo and was questioned on the possibility that he could be the murderer. Of course, we don't know if the response that has been attributed to her is accurate or not, but if it is then she likely needs to have her own attorney.

JMO

 

[tlcya]

I think if any of the family members decide to show up in court, it will be during the trial (if there is a trial). Their purpose would be to show the jury that LM has family support and I think they would tolerate the public media circus in order to help their son during a trial. Right now there is no reason to be there, no jury involved yet, and too early in the process. LM's lawyer can help them communicate if he wants to and if the family members want to.

LM's mother likely needs her own attorney in case it does go to trial and she is called as a witness regarding the comment she made to the FBI when confronted with LM's photo and was questioned on the possibility that he could be the murderer. Of course, we don't know if the response that has been attributed to her is accurate or not, but if it is then she likely needs to have her own attorney.

JMO

I agree with all of the above. as to the second paragraph, yes, I think it wise for her to have counsel and I am pretty sure she probably has already got it. I think in order for her to be considered liable for her son's actions by the public or under the law (either criminal or civil) we would need to know the context of what exactly she said and if what she said was in response to a specific question from investigators, etc I'm still holding space for her and considering her as another victim of her son's actions at this time.

 

[Friday Fan]

Polls show LM has strong support in the public, especially the younger folks, so I suppose a jury pool will resonate that support. Of course, the attorneys will do their best to weed it out during voir dire.

But, like you, I'm not sure why pulling from a larger demographic would make a difference.

Population of Southern District of New York (federal) is older, suburban and more business friendly than NYC.
Southern District of New York includes suburban counties such as Westchester County etc.

For instance: OJ's civil trial was held at the Santa Monica court house, which had a different demographic than where his criminal trial was held.

The state's case will be held in New York County, which consists of Manhattan and not much else. Lots of universities and young people live there etc. It's the base of many protest groups.

Comparing the two demographics:

New York County in red outline. New York County · New York, NY
Southern District of New York (Federal) is the second map. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...es_Southern_District_of_New_York_counties.gif

 

[NuttMegg]

It's a "not guilty" verdict. Unless the judge intervenes before a verdict is read, it is not a hung jury. No, he cannot be tried for the same charge by New York again. He can be tried by the feds however.

Well, imo it would depend on the # required to reach the verdict. Sometimes it's12 of 12, sometimes 11 of 12, other numbers in other areas. So if the jury is hung, that means they can't reach the number required for a verdict. So if they need 11 of 12, if they can't reach the required #, then yes, it is hung, and he can be tried again. Unless I'm reading you wrong.

 

[detective.moon]

if he walks free what future does he have? no chance of ever working again

rsbm

i imagine he could make money writing books, doing documentaries, public speaking, etc. and for example a young tech company might hire him too! jmo.

eta: gypsy rose blanchard comes to mind, a very different case of course, but both have a lot of public support. she is apparently a millionaire now, thanks to documentaries and a big social media following

 

[Friday Fan]

And I'm still puzzling about why Ms Agnifilio untucked her shirt for court. It's definitely considered casual.

At the time, I wondered it was because her knee. The old song, "the knee bone's connected to the hip bone" etc. She could have referred pain in her hip and, back due to her knee. Tucking stuff in at the waist may have aggravated everything with her knee. Leaving shirt untucked gives her more hip mobility, which is needed during a knee injury.
Just MOO.

 

[Tiff23fr]

An entry dated August 15, reads: “the details are finally coming together,” according to a federal complaint unsealed Thursday. “I’m glad — in a way — that I’ve procrastinated,”

It is interesting to me that by August 15 it appears he felt he had already procrastinated with his plan. I wonder what the timeline or benchmark was that he was comparing himself to in this entry?

 

[Friday Fan]

Well, imo it would depend on the # required to reach the verdict. Sometimes it's12 of 12, sometimes 11 of 12, other numbers in other areas. So if the jury is hung, that means they can't reach the number required for a verdict. So if they need 11 of 12, then 11 of them can say guilty or not guilty on each charge. But if they can't reach the required #, then yes, it is hung, and he can be tried again, or not. Unless I'm reading you wrong.

New York State criminal courts requires 12/12 for guilty verdict. (Civil courts are different) Each state is different too.

In many states it's possible to get a "not-guilty" verdict from only one hold-out.

I believe only the judge can declare a mistrial or hung jury. I guess the jury could ask, but it's the judge's decision. It must be declared before a verdict is read. (MOO)

Here is what New York State says. I don't know how it is in practice however. Sometimes the judge keeps telling them to keep deliberating and they come back with "non-guilty".

https://www.nycourts.gov/courthelp/criminal/trial.shtml

The jury tries to make a decision on whether the defendant is guilty or innocent, which is called reaching a verdict. The verdict must be unanimous, meaning every juror must agree on the verdict. If they can’t all agree, this is called a hung jury, and the Judge will have to declare a mistrial. A mistrial does not mean that the case is over. After a mistrial, the prosecutor can choose to try the case again.

ETA: From another criminal case in the same jurisdiction. Apparently one holdout is a mistrial. (Not meant to be a discussion of another case, but I can't figure at how to "unlink", but I wanted an analysis reference.

ETA: The 12-person panel would need to be unanimous for a conviction or an acquittal.

http://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/19/trump-mistrial-single-juror-00153469

 

[NuttMegg]

9Most criminal courts requires 12/12 for guilty verdict. (Civil courts are different)
If they can't reach a verdict and the judge orders them to keep deliberating and they still have a hold out, despite several communications from the jury, it would be a "not guilty" verdict.

I believe only the judge can declare a mistrial or hung jury. I guess the jury could ask, but it's the judge's decision. It must be declared before a verdict is read. (MOO)

Well, we disagree on this one, maybe our lawyer will pop in. IMO the situation you describe would not be considered "not guilty" just because they don't have the required number for guilty, it would be hung. The jury would just report that they aren't in agreement. To be declared not guilty or guilty he would need to be tried again, with new jury.

ETA thanks for posting that link i'm trying to remember what trial we were watching on here that needed 11 of 12.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

I think it is likely that the mother knew that LM either had long-standing mental health issues that escalated, or that he was having a recent break with reality. But IIRC, when the mother reported LM missing to LE in San Francisco, she also stated that he was not a danger to himself or something to that effect. But I do think that at some point, and at some level, she feared he could be a danger to himself or others.

I do think it's possible that LM is now on medication, his demeanor in court for the state charges was odd, IMO, even if it's just anti-anxiety medication and not something related to a more serious diagnosis at this point.

WHEN did his mother hire the PI. I am forgetting, and just want to get a thought out right now with this post I am responding to. How much of his social media monologuing and dialoguing had Mother seen?
I would think any PI, in this decade has to be on top of how to dig deeper into social media presence. If the PI was, maybe he was able to get some information to Mom, even though they could NOT find him.

If she was able to follow some of it, it would increases the chances of her stating that he was capable of more dangerous behaviour... given that he has been a pretty straight laced son prior.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

IMO its unlikely that she "untucked" her shirt. The sweater and shirt are likely one piece similar to the shirt sweater combo shown at the ink .
That look is currently in style and in all the stores at different price points. That shade of red aka Maroon ish is also everywhere in fashion these days.
JMO

Brochu Walker | Women's V-neck Layered Pullover Sweater in Damson Red

The Looker Layered V-Neck is the ultimate shirt and sweater combo, creating the look of two pieces in one. Versatile and effortless, this bestseller is the perfect pre-layered style.

www.brochuwalker.com

Thanks for this... I really no zero about fashion.... but clearly shirt out from under sweater is quite the fashionable look here ... on this site anyway.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

There will be two different trials with two different juries - one in state court and one in federal court, they are two different jurisdictions and both jurisdictions have brought charges against LM. So far, the state has said they will go first with their charges in state court, and that the feds will go next. But that could change, of course, as this is so early in the process.

Although the trial itself (if there is one and no plea bargain is negotiated/no guilty plea is made by LM) will not take place in both courts at the same time, there will be various pre-trial hearings in both courts at the same time, but not the trial itself.

Right, and this does bring up a lingering question in my mind. What might be some circumstances that would have the FEDS change to position #1. So far, they seem to be amenable to 2nd position, but i have wondered if they will jockey for number 1 and how / why would they do so.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

It has been noted by some pundits that the U.S. District Court in the Southern District of New York draws upon a different jury pool (a broader jury pool from more New York state counties) than the state jury pool, and that a wider jury pool might work in the federal prosecution's favor.

Not sure why there is speculation that the different jury pools would work in either side's favor.

Welcome to Jury Duty | U.S District Court

The United States District Court for the Southern District of New York summons jurors from the following counties: New York, Bronx, Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Orange, Dutchess and Sullivan. There is no more valuable service that a citizen can perform in support of our democratic Government...

www.nysd.uscourts.gov

I have thought that the opportunity of drawing from a much larger jury pool (FEDS) was one of the better reasons for the Feds to go first. Tis why I have wondered if there will be jockeying in the future over this.....

 

[Friday Fan]

Well, we disagree on this one, maybe our lawyer will pop in. IMO the situation you describe would not be considered "not guilty" just because they don't have the required number for guilty, it would be hung. The jury would just report that they aren't in agreement. To be declared not guilty or guilty he would need to be tried again, with new jury.

ETA thanks for posting that link i'm trying to remember what trial we were watching on here that needed 11 of 12.

Yeah, I think we can now agree that it would be a likely mistrial/hung jury.

MOO: So many jurisdictions, so many different trial rules etc!

 

[nhmemorymaker]

RSBM for focus...

The first time I remember seeing the style on a consistent basis was on Ellen Degeneres. She wore it like a trademark. Kind of a casual/confident flair.

You're right that the colors don't match exactly, but I think they're close enough that they drew the eye. Both styles are very preppy.

It's so odd to find us discussing fashion of all things...

"Preppy" was the very first word I thought of when they appeared in court. I kept wondering if there was some attempt to reach or influence a broader "preppy" crowd. But I could not answer that one in my head. Maybe one of you has a thought.

 

[Friday Fan]

I have thought that the opportunity of drawing from a much larger jury pool (FEDS) was one of the better reasons for the Feds to go first. Tis why I have wondered if there will be jockeying in the future over this.....

Also the stalking murder works more in the feds favor versus terrorism.
We've gone back and forth about New York Stat's terrorism statute (So don't want to go there again)


Juries are human and terrorism has a much stronger connotation than "stalking".
I think everyone on a jury could agree that stalking was involved.

Proving terrorism requires juries to put aside some of their preconceived definitions of terrorism. It requires the prosecution to define terrorism. It also gives the defense an opportunity to disagree with the prosecution's interpretation.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Polls show LM has strong support in the public, especially the younger folks, so I suppose a jury pool will resonate that support. Of course, the attorneys will do their best to weed it out during voir dire.

But, like you, I'm not sure why pulling from a larger demographic would make a difference.

But, like you, I'm not sure why pulling from a larger demographic would make a difference.

I'm really not sure either...but at first I was wondering about the stronger internal NYC jurers feeling more violated by the act of violence in their precious city.
But that thought , that if the FEDS had a wider pool, it would favor the defense, more than the prosecution....
So still not sure of anything here.

 

[nhmemorymaker]

Population of Southern District of New York (federal) is older, suburban and more business friendly than NYC.
Southern District of New York includes suburban counties such as Westchester County etc.

For instance: OJ's civil trial was held at the Santa Monica court house, which had a different demographic than where his criminal trial was held.

The state's case will be held in New York County, which consists of Manhattan and not much else. Lots of universities and young people live there etc. It's the base of many protest groups.

Comparing the two demographics:

New York County in red outline. New York County · New York, NY
Southern District of New York (Federal) is the second map. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...es_Southern_District_of_New_York_counties.gif
View attachment 554323

thanks greatly for this.

I thought FEDS could even go over State lines. Yes? No?