Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

[Leilei]

The problem with Zelenskyy is he is clueless and doesn't know when or how to discuss those provisions. Hence a ruined opportunity to end this war and to save lives of his own countrymen. JMO.

Funny that so many other leaders have no issues understanding him or working with him.
Seems like the issue lies with current US "leadership" IMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Agreed. Any Shark Tank style deal offered to Ukraine by the USA seems like colouring outside the lines. The president of the USA has stated (bragged) for a long time that, as president, he could easily negotiate an end to the Russia war against Ukraine in 2-3 days, or less than a month. The world is waiting and watching that man in a shouting match on international TV as he negotiates for Ukraine's natural resources. That negotiation includes one sentence - give me your country's wealth. Full stop. He doesn't know how to stop the war, so he had a public temper tantrum. He is unable to do what he claimed was easy - failure.

This is a good, well laid out and fully referenced article explaining the situation, including why Russia is not interested in negotiation, why Russia cannot be trusted, and why Ukraine's only goal is to secure borders. If the USA has nothing to offer, they should stay out of it. Tantrums only diminish the president in the eyes of Russia, China and the global community.

Why Ukraine Shouldn’t Negotiate with Putin | Journal of Democracy

Many pundits cry for a negotiated settlement to end the war between Russia and Ukraine. But they misunderstand Vladimir Putin’s motives. The only just end to the war will be in the trenches…

www.journalofdemocracy.org

Do you feel that Ukraine can defeat Russia on the battlefield and expel them from all Ukrainian territory?

 

[PommyMommy]

MAR 1, 2025

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/uks-starmer-tries-revive-hope-ukraine-peace-summit-2025-03-01/

British Prime Minister Keir Starmer will try to revive hope for peace in Ukraine at a meeting with Volodymyr Zelenskiy and other Western leaders on Sunday, two days after the Ukrainian leader and U.S. President Donald Trump clashed in Washington.

At a meeting that has taken on added significance, Starmer will start Sunday by holding talks with Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni after welcoming Zelenskiy on Saturday with a clear message of support for a visibly shaken leader.

They will then be joined by French President Emmanuel Macron, the EU's Ursula von der Leyen, NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte and leaders from Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Spain, Canada, Finland, Sweden, the Czech Republic and Romania. Turkey's foreign minister will also attend.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Funny that so many other leaders have no issues understanding him or working with him.
Seems like the issue lies with current US "leadership" IMO.

So all he has to do now is get more European money, weapons and troops into Ukraine and it a done deal. JMO.

 

[PommyMommy]

Italy to provide Ukraine with $13 million to restore energy infrastructure.

Rome signed an agreement with Kyiv on Feb. 28 to provide Ukraine with 13 million euros ($13.5 million) directed towards the country's Energy Support Fund, Ukraine's Energy Ministry announced.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1895950836917764214

Explosions heard in Kyiv.

Explosions were heard in Kyiv around 11:45 p.m. local time, Suspilne reported.

Ukraine's Air Force warned of the threat of Russian attack drones heading towards the capital.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1895955693695549529

Churchill visited the White House during WWII, dressed in a wartime siren suit. While meeting President Roosevelt, he sought to persuade Americans to join the war.

After Russia’s 2022 invasion, Zelensky abandoned formal suits to signal his country is still at war.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1895813600624976247

 

[Cedars]

Carrying forward post #1127 from the prior thread (I hope):

That is a very good question @justtrish ….. and I am not sure of how to answer to that unfortunately. And not with regard to troops or security.

With regard to funding though, I did add in a post #1138 (above in the prior thread) some BBC information on NATO members and how funding is based on GDP (Gross Domestic Product). And so IIUC countries and members in good standing with a larger GDP would contribute more on a quantitative basis.

But as I am not a mathematician or economist so I can’t commit to a more detailed analysis. And would leave that to qualified experts.

By trade I spent 40 years in the chemical industry as an Organic chemist. Prefer qualitative measure. Rather than quantitative means. Apologies extended that I do really have any good answers. MOO

I think it's very complicated. Yes, the US contributes the most to NATO, because of it's GDP size massively dwarfs individual European countries.

But NATO exists in the context of the US and Russia/(USSR), being mortal enemies engaged for decades in a standoff of "mutually assured destruction".

Europe was in the middle, gladly allowing the US to put military bases in their countries, but really, individually, playing very minor roles in this clash of the titans.

Nor were they encouraged to throw their weight around. The US was in charge.

If the US and Russia were to truly make peace, truly disarm, then no need for NATO.

But for US to withdraw, just out of spite, and leave Europe for Russia to devour, that's not a possibility anyone has ever contemplated. Including Americans on both sides of the spectrum.

JMO

 

[otto]

Do you feel that Ukraine can defeat Russia on the battlefield and expel them from all Ukrainian territory?

Russia expected Ukraine to capitulate 3 years ago, so Russia miscalculated. Russia will agree to a ceasefire for the sole purpose of re-organizing for another attack.

Ukraine cannot defend against a country like Russia any more than Canada can defend against a military invasion from the USA. Democratic countries have always worked together to protect ourselves against authoritarian dictators that we see in Russia, China, and now the USA.

Anyone who doesn't believe that about the USA should think about this. Trump, his government and his supporters are 100% aligned with Russia in their thinking. People in the USA agree with Russia - sounds like a first in history, but that's where the USA is today.

Russia's Foreign Ministry spokesperson described the Oval Office blowout as a "complete political and diplomatic failure" for Kyiv.​

CBC

 

[HmmMysterious]

Do you feel that Ukraine can defeat Russia on the battlefield and expel them from all Ukrainian territory?

Yes when Trump gets his head out of his fat ahh and starts sending aid again

 

[Leilei]

So all he has to do now is get more European money, weapons and troops into Ukraine and it a done deal. JMO.

Sure, and meanwhile our allies turn their backs on us when we are need because we decided to swing our pickles at the President of a war-torn country who was asking for help, referring to him as a dictator, trying to force him to bend the knee, all while Putin, a REAL dictator/murderer/disgusting human, is revered. He's absolutely thrilled with these developments, and doesn't give an elephant's fart what happens to our country. DJT could keel over tonight and Putin would MAYBE tweet a "So sad, RIP", then he'd be off to find his next mark.
Tide is already turning on us with some of the military fuel supply being cut off. If other companies follow suit, our Navy is FUBAR'd.
This is disgraceful, and anyone who supports it is disgraceful, too.
IMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Russia expected Ukraine to capitulate 3 years ago, so Russia miscalculated. Russia will agree to a ceasefire for the sole purpose of re-organizing for another attack.

Ukraine cannot defend against a country like Russia any more than Canada can defend against a military invasion from the USA. Democratic countries have always worked together to protect ourselves against authoritarian dictators that we see in Russia, China, and now the USA.

Anyone who doesn't believe that about the USA should think about this. Trump, his government and his supporters are 100% aligned with Russia in their thinking. People in the USA agree with Russia - sounds like a first in history, but that's where the USA is today.

Russia's Foreign Ministry spokesperson described the Oval Office blowout as a "complete political and diplomatic failure" for Kyiv.​

CBC

So no ceasefire and no win for Ukraine. An endless war is not good for anyone. JMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

23 out of 32 NATO countries now meet or exceed the 2% GDP defense spending target, not just the U.S. and Poland.

This isn’t money paid to NATO; it’s what each country invests in its own military. The idea that Poland would somehow be left footing the bill is just misinformation.

Also, NATO as an organization has a separate budget for operations, and the U.S. pays about 16% of that, not the majority. NATO wouldn’t just collapse financially if the U.S. left, it would be weakened, but European countries already outspend Russia on defense.

Imo

Source:NATO Official Site

I think that's what they're hoping for in 2024, however there's a severe shortfall for 2023. I'm kind of shocked that France , Italy, Spain in Canada, isn't meeting the 2%.

 

[otto]

So no ceasefire and no win for Ukraine. An endless war is not good for anyone. JMO.

It doesn't have to be an endless war if the border is properly defended. It Ukraine joins NATO, every NATO country will be there to protect the sovereign, democratic country of Ukraine.

Why is the USA opposed to giving Ukraine that protection?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

It doesn't have to be an endless war if the border is properly defended. It Ukraine joins NATO, every NATO country will be there to protect the sovereign, democratic country of Ukraine.

Why is the USA opposed to giving Ukraine that protection?

The Ukrainian border? If so Ukraine needs to defeat Russia on the battlefield and expel them to get back to that border.

I think we are starting to talk in circles. JMO.

Edit to add.

Are you saying that NATO forces should deploy to Ukraine and force the Russians back to their own territory?

 

[Simply Southern]

UK getting pushed back on spending cuts for foreign aid to free up money for Ukraine.

Keir Starmer to carry out largest cut to UK overseas aid in history

NGOs accuse prime minister of following US by accepting ‘false choice’ of cutting aid to fund defence

www.theguardian.com

Sir Keir Starmer is to take UK overseas aid to its lowest level as a percentage of national income since records began, even if he manages to halve the current £4.5bn cost of housing asylum seekers.

The extraordinary finding, a complete reversal of Labour manifesto pledges and its historical commitment to helping the world’s poorest, is made by Ian Mitchell, the co-director of the respected London-based thinktank the Centre for Global Development.

It comes as 138 charities wrote to Starmer saying they are appalled that he is implementing the single largest cut to the UK aid programme in history.

On Tuesday Starmer announced the aid budget will be cut from 0.5% of gross national income to 0.3% in 2027. But in 2023, nearly £4.3bn, or 28% of the aid budget, was spent by the Home Office in funding the cost of housing asylum seekers in the UK.

Even if these costs were halved in 2027 through a mix of fewer asylum seekers, and lowering the cost of housing each asylum seeker, Mitchell calculates, the UK would still only be spending 0.23% of UK national income in 2027 on overseas aid, the lowest ever share of national income since records began in 1960.

 

[KMouse]

I feel like yesterday's show at the White House was scripted by Trump and Vance. It was a televised show where Trump and Vance could swing their pickles around and humiliate the president of a country at war. It was sick.
I am Canadian and Trump's threats to annex us and make us the 51st state is disgusting. Trump has repeatedly called our leader/Prime Minister "Governor" Trudeau as a show of disrespect.
Whatever Trump does will benefit his regime. Not Americans as a whole.
Canadians are together on supporting our Country and we have hit back with refusing to buy American products in stores. Stores are now marking their shelves with 'Made in Canada' signs. We're cancelling our vacations to the U.S and making decisions to keep our money out of the U.S.

 

[otto]

The Ukrainian border? If so Ukraine needs to defeat Russia on the battlefield and expel them to get back to that border.

I think we are starting to talk in circles. JMO.

Edit to add.

Are you saying that NATO forces should deploy to Ukraine and force the Russians back to their own territory?

Everyone more or less agrees that the 20% that Russia has taken is lost. Russia has threatened attacks against NATO countries if Ukraine joins NATO. That would be the world war that Trump wants to blame on Ukraine.

Somehow, in Trump's Art of the Deal, that world war can be stopped if Ukraine hands over all natural resources to the USA. That's a very strange strategy for a democratic political leader. It's what's expected from an authoritarian dictator: give me everything you have, then you're on your own.

 

[Simply Southern]

Zelensky confirms upcoming meeting with Trump

"I will meet with President Trump," Zelensky said in his evening address on Feb. 26. "It is important for me and all of us in the world that America's assistance is not stopped."

kyivindependent.com

February 26, 2025

Following a series of intensive negotiations, Washington and Kyiv agreed on a deal to establish a fund to which Ukraine will contribute 50% of proceeds from the "future monetization" of state-owned mineral resources, including oil, gas, and logistics infrastructure.

Ukraine's Cabinet of Ministers approved the decision to sign the mineral resources agreement on Feb. 26, Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal said.

Well we all know how that did not work out. They may have signed it, it was noted they were upset about the negotiation ending. Moo

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Everyone more or less agrees that the 20% that Russia has taken is lost. Russia has threatened attacks against NATO countries if Ukraine joins NATO. That would be the world war that Trump wants to blame on Ukraine.

Somehow, in Trump's Art of the Deal, that world war can be stopped if Ukraine hands over all natural resources to the USA. That's a very strange strategy for a democratic political leader. It's what's expected from an authoritarian dictator: give me everything you have, then you're on your own.

If Zelenskyy is willing to compromise with Putin then he needs to get going and get it done and stop playing games with peoples lives. JMO.

 

[Betty P]

23 out of 32 NATO countries now meet or exceed the 2% GDP defense spending target, not just the U.S. and Poland.

This isn’t money paid to NATO; it’s what each country invests in its own military. The idea that Poland would somehow be left footing the bill is just misinformation.

Also, NATO as an organization has a separate budget for operations, and the U.S. pays about 16% of that, not the majority. NATO wouldn’t just collapse financially if the U.S. left, it would be weakened, but European countries already outspend Russia on defense.

Imo

Source:NATO Official Site

The US is not going to leave NATO, JMO. The alliances there and the work all of the allies do is integral to our own national defense.

Trump can't unilaterally make that decision. The senate also has the power of Advise and Consent. JMO, its just a lot of bullying and hot air to distract the public.

All of the parties to any treaty to end the Russian war against Ukraine have to make compromises and agree to stop the aggression.

 

[Marysmith]

If Zelenskyy is willing to compromise with Putin then he needs to get going and get it done and stop playing games with peoples lives. JMO.

Compromise how?