Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

[Simply Southern]

Everyone more or less agrees that the 20% that Russia has taken is lost. Russia has threatened attacks against NATO countries if Ukraine joins NATO. That would be the world war that Trump wants to blame on Ukraine.

Somehow, in Trump's Art of the Deal, that world war can be stopped if Ukraine hands over all natural resources to the USA. That's a very strange strategy for a democratic political leader. It's what's expected from an authoritarian dictator: give me everything you have, then you're on your own.

Zelenskyy says he's not going to sign a peace deal, unless all the land is returned, he gets all of the frozen Russian assets, and US military support and intelligence. If there is a world war III, Zelenskyy is 100% responsible. He made it very plain he is not going to negotiate, he wants to continue the war.

The mineral deal was to generate money to reconstruct Ukraine. The 50% would be from new business that the US brought into Ukraine. The US was matching $2 for every dollar Ukraine generated.

US was not to make any money on the deal. After reconstruction, all the bills are paid, the US would be reimbursed for its matching investment only.

Ukraine deliberately leaked the contract prior to the meeting with Trump.

I don't trust Zelensky, not for a minute. He doesn't tell the truth. I just hope he doesn't drag the UK into the war.

Moo...

 

[Marysmith]

Zelenskyy says he's not going to sign a peace deal, unless all the land is returned, he gets all of the frozen Russian assets, and US military support and intelligence. If there is a world war III, Zelenskyy is 100% responsible. He made it very plain he is not going to negotiate, he wants to continue the war.

The mineral deal was to generate money to reconstruct Ukraine. The 50% would be from new business that the US brought into Ukraine. The US was matching $2 for every dollar Ukraine generated.

US was not to make any money on the deal. After reconstruction, all the bills are paid, the US would be reimbursed for its matching investment only.

Ukraine deliberately leaked the contract prior to the meeting with Trump.

I don't trust Zelensky, not for a minute. He doesn't tell the truth. I just hope he doesn't drag the UK into the war.

Moo...

Do you have any sources for this or is this all your personal opinion?

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Compromise how?

Read otto's post about Ukrainian territory that I replied to.

 

[PommyMommy]

The US company NEROS secured major contract to supply 6,000 anti-jamming Archer FPV drones to Ukraine

The deal follows rigorous testing, with NEROS emphasizing its cutting-edge radio tech designed to counter electronic warfare

https://twitter.com/x/status/1895957274885042609

"History has taught us that appeasing aggressors leads to catastrophe. Trump's exclusion of Ukraine from peace talks with Putin is Munich 1938 all over again" -- @CarlBildt, former Swedish PM

https://twitter.com/x/status/1895987453686612428

NEW: Senior US officials are suggesting that the United States may cut all aid to Ukraine, although President Trump has not indicated any such intention.

Cutting the current flow of aid to Ukraine would directly undermine President Trump’s stated goal of achieving a sustainable peace in Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1895982003519971420

 

[otto]

I feel like yesterday's show at the White House was scripted by Trump and Vance. It was a televised show where Trump and Vance could swing their pickles around and humiliate the president of a country at war. It was sick.
I am Canadian and Trump's threats to annex us and make us the 51st state is disgusting. Trump has repeatedly called our leader/Prime Minister "Governor" Trudeau as a show of disrespect.
Whatever Trump does will benefit his regime. Not Americans as a whole.
Canadians are together on supporting our Country and we have hit back with refusing to buy American products in stores. Stores are now marking their shelves with 'Made in Canada' signs. We're cancelling our vacations to the U.S and making decisions to keep our money out of the U.S.

No kidding! Canadians are disgusted with Trump and everyone who echoes his infantile pot-shots. Let's not forget, Trump is 78 years old and still throwing tantrums. It's not even worth calling the USA a province and Trump a premier. So lowbrow.

Canada know exactly what Ukraine is feeling today with the USA, a long standing ally, turning into an aggressor overnight. What Canada and Ukraine are experiencing and thinking is spreading around the world faster than social media.

 

[Simply Southern]

The US is not going to leave NATO, JMO. The alliances there and the work all of the allies do is integral to our own national defense.

Trump can't unilaterally make that decision. The senate also has the power of Advise and Consent. JMO, its just a lot of bullying and hot air to distract the public.

All of the parties to any treaty to end the Russian war against Ukraine have to make compromises and agree to stop the aggression.

You are correct, the US Senate would have to approve our withdrawal from NATO. Trump's political party has controlling power of the Senate. They currently hold 53 seats, of the 100 seats. * Corrected requires a 2/3 majority. Thank you @Betty P for the correction.

That's the problem, Zelenskyy will not compromise. That's what the whole argument with Trump. Trump kept telling him that this could lead to world war III. He also made a long statement on X, posted up thread, with his demands.

Moo

 

[HmmMysterious]

If Zelenskyy is willing to compromise with Putin then he needs to get going and get it done and stop playing games with peoples lives. JMO.

Switch Putin and Zelensky around and your post will be correct.

 

[Marysmith]

Read otto's post about Ukrainian territory that I replied to.

I did. I still don't understand what you mean and how that would be possible but that's ok.

 

[PommyMommy]

Refresher...

NEW: Russian President Vladimir Putin and senior Russian officials continue to reject US negotiating terms and demand that Ukraine surrender territory that Russia does not occupy. Details(1/3)

Putin stated in his February 27 address to the Federal Security Service (FSB) board that Russia will continue to strengthen FSB operations in Donbas and "Novorossiya." Kremlin Spokesperson Dmitry Peskov similarly claimed on February 27 that Donbas and "Novorossiya" are an "integral" part of Russia.

Putin and other Russian officials have previously defined "Novorossiya" as all of eastern and southern Ukraine (including Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Odesa, and Mykolaiv oblasts), although its precise borders are disputed among Russian ultranationalists.

Putin has previously demanded that Ukraine surrender all of Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhia oblasts even though Russian forces do not occupy large parts of Donetsk, Kherson, and Zaporizhia oblasts.

Putin and other Russian officials have routinely indicated that they aim for territorial conquest beyond the administrative boundaries of these four illegally annexed oblasts.

Renewed official Russian statements that the invented region of "Novorossiya" is part of Russia indicate that Putin maintains his maximalist territorial ambitions and is unwilling to offer territorial concessions.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1895293059119628774

 

[PommyMommy]

2/ Russian forces currently occupy a small portion of Kharkiv Oblast and the Kinburn Spit in Mykolaiv Oblast and are attempting to advance to the Dnipropetrovsk Oblast border.

3/ The Kremlin may use the Russian occupation of limited territory in these oblasts as a false premise to demand that Ukraine surrender even more territory.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1895293710180491755

 

[Betty P]

You are correct, the US Senate would have to approve our withdrawal from NATO. Trump's political party has controlling power of the Senate. They currently hold 53 seats, of the 100 seats, it only requires a simple majority.

That's the problem, Zelenskyy will not compromise. That's what the whole argument with Trump. Trump kept telling him that this could lead to world war III. He also made a long statement on X, posted up thread, with his demands.

Moo

It would require a 2/3 majority in the Senate

Zelenskyy has already compromised. No one expects him to agree to not having any protection from ongoing attacks from Russia. That's been pointed out several dozen times here today and nothing has changed.

 

[otto]

Zelenskyy says he's not going to sign a peace deal, unless all the land is returned, he gets all of the frozen Russian assets, and US military support and intelligence. If there is a world war III, Zelenskyy is 100% responsible. He made it very plain he is not going to negotiate, he wants to continue the war.

The mineral deal was to generate money to reconstruct Ukraine. The 50% would be from new business that the US brought into Ukraine. The US was matching $2 for every dollar Ukraine generated.

US was not to make any money on the deal. After reconstruction, all the bills are paid, the US would be reimbursed for its matching investment only.

Ukraine deliberately leaked the contract prior to the meeting with Trump.

I don't trust Zelensky, not for a minute. He doesn't tell the truth. I just hope he doesn't drag the UK into the war.

Moo...

People who have been displaced by war have to find new homes, jobs, schools and lives. 20,000 children that were stolen from Ukraine to be brainwashed in Russia - what about them? Can they go home?

Ukraine doesn't need to be reconstructed if it's going to be bombed again in a year. Ukraine needs assurances that Russia will not re-invade in the near future. Trump's Shark Tank deal is completely off-base in the context of his big-talk over the last few years about stopping the war in Ukraine within days.

The USA can keep their re-building money for their Gaza Resort. Ukraine needs border security, not Trump towers.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I did. I still don't understand what you mean and how that would be possible but that's ok.

Otto said that everyone more or less agrees that the 20% that Russia has taken is lost. I agree with that.

He didn't say everyone except Zelenskyy so I assumed that it really meant everyone. JMO.

 

[Betty P]

If Trump is allowed to bully, lie and cheat against our European allies who are defending Ukraine, who will be next? Which one of our allies will Trump turn against next? Will he try to invade Canada or Mexico? Nothing would surprise me. He apparently feels he is King and immune from US or international law. He may be in for a rude awakening. JMO

 

[otto]

You are correct, the US Senate would have to approve our withdrawal from NATO. Trump's political party has controlling power of the Senate. They currently hold 53 seats, of the 100 seats, it only requires a simple majority.

That's the problem, Zelenskyy will not compromise. That's what the whole argument with Trump. Trump kept telling him that this could lead to world war III. He also made a long statement on X, posted up thread, with his demands.

Moo

What would a Ukraine compromise look like?

Zelenskyy has offered to step down to appease those who complain that elections were not held during war. He will negotiate with natural resources, including to repay money that was given with no strings attached.

Should Zelenskyy decide what Ukraine needs in return, or does Mr Trump expect that he can decide what Ukraine needs?

 

[mickey2942]

It doesn't seem wise to disrespect the President of the United States, when Ukraine has basically had a blank check for weapons for years.

Time for the war to end.

Just my own opinion.

 

[Marysmith]

Otto said that everyone more or less agrees that the 20% that Russia has taken is lost. I agree with that.

He didn't say everyone except Zelenskyy so I assumed that it really meant everyone. JMO.

Thank you for answering.
So it's acceptable that 20% was taken by force? What if another country wanted 20% of the USA?

 

[Donswife48]

According to Zelinsky, Trump reneged on the agreement that the US provide their share of security in the event of the inevitable Russian invasion.

Bait and switch or "rug pulling" is an old con. Perhaps appropriate in criminal circles, but well below the high standards of US diplomacy.

Speaking to journalists on Feb. 26, Zelensky said the agreement was "well appreciated by our government officials," though he added it does not yet contain specific security guarantees for Ukraine.

Exclusive: The full text of the US-Ukraine mineral deal

The Kyiv Independent has obtained from a source in the Ukrainian government, the full text of the mineral deal agreement between the U.S. and Ukraine.

kyivindependent.com

 

[Deleted member 39678]

President Donald Trump says the United States will not give Ukraine significant security guarantees as he confirmed that the country’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy would visit Washington, DC to sign a critical minerals deal on Friday.

US will not give security guarantees to Ukraine, Trump says

US president says Volodymyr Zelenskyy will visit Washington, DC, on Friday to sign US-Ukraine critical minerals deal.

www.aljazeera.com

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

 

[Simply Southern]

I think it's very complicated. Yes, the US contributes the most to NATO, because of it's GDP size massively dwarfs individual European countries.

But NATO exists in the context of the US and Russia/(USSR), being mortal enemies engaged for decades in a standoff of "mutually assured destruction".

Europe was in the middle, gladly allowing the US to put military bases in their countries, but really, individually, playing very minor roles in this clash of the titans.

Nor were they encouraged to throw their weight around. The US was in charge.

If the US and Russia were to truly make peace, truly disarm, then no need for NATO.

But for US to withdraw, just out of spite, and leave Europe for Russia to devour, that's not a possibility anyone has ever contemplated. Including Americans on both sides of the spectrum.

JMO

I respectfully disagree. There are many threats besides Russia. China is a US major threat, and let's also include North Korea and Iran. Moo