Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

[Deleted member 39678]

I can certainly understand the tendency for some to believe that something terrible isn't actually happening. Why they refuse to acknowledge even what they see with their own eyes and to willfully remain in the dark. It's a coping mechanism and a survival technique, I suppose. But, there comes a time when we, as adults, have to put on our big girl and big boy pants and face actual reality. Burying our heads in the sand right now is not an option. It will prove to be a devastating failure for the USA.

I feel that Zelenskyy believes that his way is the right way.

Unfortunately he is wrong and if he doesn't change his mind on how to go from here his people will continue to die in a war with no end. JMO.

 

[Fairy1]

Zelenskyy says he's not going to sign a peace deal, unless all the land is returned, he gets all of the frozen Russian assets, and US military support and intelligence. If there is a world war III, Zelenskyy is 100% responsible. He made it very plain he is not going to negotiate, he wants to continue the war.

The mineral deal was to generate money to reconstruct Ukraine. The 50% would be from new business that the US brought into Ukraine. The US was matching $2 for every dollar Ukraine generated.

US was not to make any money on the deal. After reconstruction, all the bills are paid, the US would be reimbursed for its matching investment only.

Ukraine deliberately leaked the contract prior to the meeting with Trump.

I don't trust Zelensky, not for a minute. He doesn't tell the truth. I just hope he doesn't drag the UK into the war.

Moo...

It was smart of Ukraine to leak the (non) deal in advance - allowing the world to see it was no deal for them at all. Compromise means both sides give something. This "deal" was not even close. It was "give me what I want and then take your chances." How is Russia compromising, BTW?

 

[musicaljoke]

I'm not surprised the Senate may cut funding. Vance, Waltz and Rubio were all US Senators prior to VP and cabinet positions. Trump has a very strong supportive team, very different from his first term. Moo

I am sure that some are supportive, but I think that the stronger emotion is fear. They are afraid of Trump and his vicious attacks on those he deems to be traitors when they voice opposition. It is a very dangerous time for political leaders.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

It was smart of Ukraine to leak the (non) deal in advance - allowing the world to see it was no deal for them at all. Compromise means both sides give something. This "deal" was not even close. It was "give me what I want and then take your chances." How is Russia compromising, BTW?

It was a great deal for Ukraine and that's why Zelenskyy rushed to Washington to sign it. Then he screwed the whole thing up. JMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

If Trump is allowed to bully, lie and cheat against our European allies who are defending Ukraine, who will be next? Which one of our allies will Trump turn against next? Will he try to invade Canada or Mexico? Nothing would surprise me. He apparently feels he is King and immune from US or international law. He may be in for a rude awakening. JMO

We're not cheating our allies we've given more than any one individual country. The 27 European countries combined have given slightly more than the US.

We haven't turned against Ukraine. Trump is the only person in 3 years that has reached out to Putin to try to negotiate a peace deal.

What international law has Trump broken? Refusing to continue to pour money into a country that doesn't stand a snowballs chance of winning against Russia. We might have been stupid by giving all that money but we didn't break any law.
Moo

 

[Stella123]

Personally, I have been analysing what the real issue was with that White House meeting. The old thing that they just didn't understand each other. And I don't mean language, I mean they just didn't see each others point of view.

Zelensky is protecting his people, who have fought bravely and been through hell. So he was of course sensitive to any criticism of the position his country is in - when Putin is the aggressor. What he wants is US support.

Trump and Vance are talking about diplomacy and reaching a peace agreement. Fine. But when Vance started to criticize and say Zelensky was having to force people to fight, they were running away, and millions are dead (as if it's Zelensky's fault), this was grossly insensitive to someone who has been living in a war torn country. Zelensky didn't lose his cool but he did ask a direct question. What type of diplomacy was JD Vance talking about. Vance pushed Zelensky's buttons by being insensitive about the loss of Ukrainian lives, so Zelensky said talking loudly didn't solve anything (or something like that), which was when Trump chipped in to defend Vance and say he wasn't talking loudly. And the pair proceeded to tell Zelensky off.

I can see a point of view of Vance and Trump (albeit handled very crassly) that they think the war should end and a peace arranged. That is logical. It's just how is that achieved? I can see how Zelensky would feel he can't just capitulate after the hell Ukrainians have been through and are going through - and in any event it wouldn't be safe to capitulate.

So IMO - quite simply they were just not on the same page, couldn't see each others viewpoints and it got personal. I don't even know why J D Vance was there - he just seemed there to provoke. JMO MOO

"Exuding preternatural obnoxiousness, Vance said Joe Biden’s approach had failed and that diplomacy was the way forward. Noting Russia’s betrayals of trust in the past, Zelenskyy challenged: “What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean?”

Diplomacy dies on live TV as Trump and Vance gang up to bully Ukraine leader

US president said his horrific blow-up would make ‘great television’ – the White House has never seen anything like it

www.theguardian.com

 

[Leilei]

Thanks for the link. I can see that Norway doesn't want the help of the US Navy anymore.

We can use those US Navy assets elsewhere. JMO.

It's a company, not the country, who made this decision.
And other companies may follow, in other countries that have ports that our ships and subs pull into.
There are no US Navy assets if there is no fuel to be had at those overseas ports.
IMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

Thanks for the link. I can see that Norway doesn't want the help of the US Navy anymore.

We can use those US Navy assets elsewhere. JMO.

Wonder what other US we have in Norway? Sounds to me like NATO is getting ready to come unglued.
Moo...

 

[Fairy1]

I feel that Zelenskyy believes that his way is the right way.

Unfortunately he is wrong and if he doesn't change his mind on how to go from here his people will continue to die in a war with no end. JMO.

His way is the right way for Ukraine and the Ukrainian people. This is not his war - it's Putin's war. Never should have started.

 

[acutename]

So no ceasefire and no win for Ukraine. An endless war is not good for anyone. JMO.

How does anyone get Putin/Russia to agree to a cease fire? All the people who are meeting are not the source of the conflict- IMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

I can certainly understand the tendency for some to believe that something terrible isn't actually happening. Why they refuse to acknowledge even what they see with their own eyes and to willfully remain in the dark. It's a coping mechanism and a survival technique, I suppose. But, there comes a time when we, as adults, have to put on our big girl and big boy pants and face actual reality. Burying our heads in the sand right now is not an option. It will prove to be a devastating failure for the USA.

Why would you blame the US? We've given more financial aids to NATO than any other country. We've given more aid to Ukraine than any other country. We're the only country that reached out to Putin to try to see if a peace deal could be negotiated.

Its a always blame the United States. I think we have no true allies in Europe. Thankful for the ones that we do have. The ones that have faithfully stood by the US.

Okay by me. It's in Europe's hands now. They can deal Zelenskyy.

Moo...

 

[Donswife48]

It was smart of Ukraine to leak the (non) deal in advance - allowing the world to see it was no deal for them at all. Compromise means both sides give something. This "deal" was not even close. It was "give me what I want and then take your chances." How is Russia compromising, BTW?

The original mineral deal was never meant to be a negotiation between Ukraine and Russia. It was meant to be a partnership between Ukraine and USA, offering substantial funds to Ukraine to help with reconstruction, and a way for USA to gain important minerals that we need, without buying through China.

Breaking Down the U.S.-Ukraine Minerals Deal

The United States and Ukraine reached a landmark agreement to jointly invest in Ukraine's critical minerals and resources. This deal, the first of its kind, highlights minerals in President Trump’s transactional diplomacy.

www.csis.org

 

[Cedars]

I can't make out what Trump is trying to achieve by his stance with Zelensky. Is it
1) He doesn't want to give him a load more money
2) He is hoping for a Nobel Peace Prize by making peace with Putin and Ukraine
3) He is scared of Putin and WWIII and happy to give up on Ukraine

Yes, I listen to a lot of commentators on European/US foreign policy YT channels, who are trying to explain this. For me, the more biased the commentator, the more quickly I skip the interview. I have no interest in emotional rhetoric and propaganda from the left or right.

The more kindly analysts believe Trump really wants that Nobel Peace Prize. The others theorize that he admires Putin, wants to be able to do business-style deals with him. Maybe to sideline China, maybe for other reasons.

None of the serious commentators believe it's really about the minerals or paying back 'loans" of military aid. That's just icing on the cake. Whatever the 'cake' really is. (The cake is Trump's hidden agenda).

JMO

 

[Fairy1]

It was a great deal for Ukraine and that's why Zelenskyy rushed to Washington to sign it. Then he screwed the whole thing up. JMO.

How was it a great deal for Ukraine?

 

[Leilei]

Wonder what other US we have in Norway? Sounds to me like NATO is getting ready to come unglued.
Moo...

The Army had joint exercises with them last month, and the Navy and Marines have an exercise with them this month.
There are about 1,400 US troops stationed in Norway.

U.S. Marine Corps joins large exercise in northern Norway amid Trump turmoil

Turmoil in trans-Atlantic relations wrought by the Trump administration is so far not visible among allied NATO forces up north. The Marine Expeditionary Force from North Carolina will play a significant role in Joint Viking 2025 kicking off in early March.

www.thebarentsobserver.com

IMO.

 

[Stella123]

It was the same for Britain in WWII. The only reason we weren't invaded by Hitler was luck in the end - Hitler turned his attention elsewhere which gave Britain chance to get organised. But the spirit of any country will be strong against any invader.

Of course Zelensky doesn't want a war and wants peace. What he needs is help to stop the war. He strongly believes Putin can't be trusted in any agreements or deals - which may well be true.

To achieve a peace deal, it needs someone VERY diplomatic and to put security in place for both Russia and Ukraine. JMO MOO

 

[Fairy1]

Why would you blame the US? We've given more financial aids to NATO than any other country. We've given more aid to Ukraine than any other country. We're the only country that reached out to Putin to try to see if a peace deal could be negotiated.

Its a always blame the United States. I think we have no true allies in Europe. Thankful for the ones that we do have. The ones that have faithfully stood by the US.

Okay by me. It's in Europe's hands now. They can deal Zelenskyy.

Moo...

Where, exactly, did I "blame the US?"

 

[Deleted member 39678]

How does anyone get Putin/Russia to agree to a cease fire? All the people who are meeting are not the source of the conflict- IMO.

Diplomacy. It will not happen overnight but the will to succeed must be there. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

His way is the right way for Ukraine and the Ukrainian people. This is not his war - it's Putin's war. Never should have started.

I disagree. I feel that Zelenskyy is letting his people down. JMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

I am sure that some are supportive, but I think that the stronger emotion is fear. They are afraid of Trump and his vicious attacks on those he deems to be traitors when they voice opposition. It is a very dangerous time for political leaders.

Well I read the room on Friday. They're not afraid of Trump, Vance jumped right in to try to explain diplomacy and defend our president. Senator Rubio was clearly trying to control his emotions. You don't sit in the yellow chair and bad mouth the United States and the President and his posse not defend them.
The president, his cabinet, and the US Senate are the tightest group I've seen since I began voting. They are united, even the ones that don't like Trump are united for the good of the country. Moo