Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

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  • #621
Yes it seems odd Zelensky was walking into a Lion's Den when there had been proclamations from Trump that Ukraine started the war! When everyone knows Russia invaded Ukraine!

It could be seen as very brave or very foolish - or a bit of both - but he was determined to try and gain the support needed for his country - the country he represents. JMO MOO

19th February

BBC Fact Checks what Trump has said

"US President Donald Trump has appeared to accuse Ukraine of being responsible for the war with Russia, in a flurry of claims from his Mar-a-Lago mansion in Florida.

BBC Verify has fact-checked Trump's claims.

Claim: Zelensky is a 'dictator without elections'​

Zelensky won 73% of the vote in the second-round run-off.

Trump appeared aware that it had been a frequent Russian allegation used to undermine Zelensky

Claim: 'I hate to say it, but he's down at 4% approval rating'​

A survey conducted this month found that 57% of Ukrainians said they trusted the president, according to the Ukraine-based Kyiv International Institute of Sociology, external.

Claim: 'You should have never started it'​

Ukraine didn't start the war. Russia launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, having annexed Crimea in 2014.


Trump started this negative propaganda about Zelensky (mirroring Russian propaganda) in the immediate run up to Zelensky's visit to the US. Zelensky still tried to get a deal. JMO MOO
This has been normal for President Trump. For years. Just a wee bit of actual research will bear the true facts out.

Interesting that both the British and Zelinksyy have corrected (ie: fact checked) President Trump during live pressers this week. He doesn't like being fact checked by those he's talking about. He thinks it's undiplomatic of them to correct him. He already KNOWS the facts - they just don't suit his narrative ... while he calls them dictators and governor etc which is extremely undiplomatic. The irony.

It's kind of like the Ukraine War. He starts it by denigrating their titles and threatening annexation, but it's always the others' fault. Russia invades, but it's Ukraine's fault. Not very honest and not very democratic and certainly not diplomacy.

It's like living daily through Alice's looking glass ...
 
  • #622
Thirdly Putin invaded them. Zelensky did not start it which raises the question why is he trying so hard to turn people against Zelensky by lieing?
And Trump can't claim he's trying to remain "neutral", when he's said that.
 
  • #623
One mistake he definitely made was not taking an interpreter. Even if his English is perfect. An interpreter gives the time to think through and lowers the impulsivity. It was not difficult to predict that Trump would remember Hunter. One had to be prepared what to say. After all, after so many years, Zelinskyy has turned into a seasoned politician. The future of your country depends on US new President. Who may not have the best memories of the past but is exceptionally pragmatic and in whose eyes, everything has its cost.

Maybe a second person for the negotiations would have helped, too. I am a little bit upset that Zelenskyy's nerves gave up, although I can well understand how it can happen.
Have you watched the entire 43 minute video? Zelensky is cool and calm throughout this. Though he may have an incomplete command of English, his points were very well expressed. Trump on the other hand monopolized the entire discussion with egocentric chest pounding and slams on previous presidents Obama and Biden. It was Trump that exploded at the end, with lots of help from JD Vance. I think it was Trump who realized he did not have the cards to play. Those cards were to provide security for a lasting peace. Watch the video and listen.
 
  • #624
I just re watched the Oval Office PC and it reaffirms my view that Zelenskyy was totally out of line during it.

He started early on with making faces when President Trump was talking. He complained about the mineral deal that he was there to sign wasn't enough even though Trump said that security would be addressed.

He rudely interrupted President Trump about the description of Ukrainian cities for no apparent reason. Never once thanked the US for all of it's help.

When VP Vance talked about how diplomacy needs to be used to end this war and not chest thumping like the past administration did, Zelenskyy thought it would be a good idea to attack him and tell him it wont work.

Zelenskyy then went on a rant, in the Oval Office, lecturing President Trump about how the Obama,Trump,and Biden admins didn't stop Russia from breaking deals. Talking over his host the whole time.

Zelenskyy screwed up by insulting the very people who are trying to save his country. Hopefully the damage can be repaired. JMO.
 
  • #625
This has been normal for President Trump. For years. Just a wee bit of actual research will bear the true facts out.

Interesting that both the British and Zelinksyy have corrected (ie: fact checked) President Trump during live pressers this week. He doesn't like being fact checked by those he's talking about. He thinks it's undiplomatic of them to correct him. He already KNOWS the facts - they just don't suit his narrative ... while he calls them dictators and governor etc which is extremely undiplomatic. The irony.

It's kind of like the Ukraine War. He starts it by denigrating their titles and threatening annexation, but it's always the others' fault. Russia invades, but it's Ukraine's fault. Not very honest and not very democratic and certainly not diplomacy.

It's like living daily through Alice's looking glass ...
Yes at least 3 of trump's egocentric pressers recently have resulted in a world leader correcting him on important issues. Lets not forget also King of Jordan telling Trump "lets not get ahead of ourselves" on moving Palestinians out of the Gaza and specifically telling Trump that he would accept only 2,000 children on humanitarian basis (sick and injured) only. Big question. Why hasn't Trump invited Putin to the Whitehouse to "negotiate a deal on camera?
 
  • #626
I just re watched the Oval Office PC and it reaffirms my view that Zelenskyy was totally out of line during it.

He started early on with making faces when President Trump was talking. He complained about the mineral deal that he was there to sign wasn't enough even though Trump said that security would be addressed.

He rudely interrupted President Trump about the description of Ukrainian cities for no apparent reason. Never once thanked the US for all of it's help.

When VP Vance talked about how diplomacy needs to be used to end this war and not chest thumping like the past administration did, Zelenskyy thought it would be a good idea to attack him and tell him it wont work.

Zelenskyy then went on a rant, in the Oval Office, lecturing President Trump about how the Obama,Trump,and Biden admins didn't stop Russia from breaking deals. Talking over his host the whole time.

Zelenskyy screwed up by insulting the very people who are trying to save his country. Hopefully the damage can be repaired. JMO.

"Zelenskyy then went on a rant, in the Oval Office, lecturing President Trump about how the Obama,Trump,and Biden admins didn't stop Russia from breaking deals. Talking over his host the whole time."

No.... He correctly advised Trump that despite deals with Obama,Trump,and Biden admins, PUTIN broke the deal about 25 times.
 
  • #627
Zelenskyy should had respected the people who hosted him. JMO.
Remember "Vae victus", the Roman phrase, which even Napoleon had used, meaning that the victor dictates the conditions? The victory in these election went to President Trump. So for Trump, it is about geopolitics and money, but he can also afford it to be a tad about himself. This is what i think he planned to do, before signing the agreement. But Zelenskyy can't do the same. He has to think of his people, and them alone. A very bad moment to flex muscles, and politically, a mistake. (( Trump was surrounded by Vance, Rubio, some other people representing the country, he could add the "me" part. Zelenskyy had to think about his people.
 
  • #628
And Trump can't claim he's trying to remain "neutral", when he's said that.
He is not even remotely neutral which as a supposed ally is worrying. Who is going to be the next leader to be attacked?
I just re watched the Oval Office PC and it reaffirms my view that Zelenskyy was totally out of line during it.

He started early on with making faces when President Trump was talking. He complained about the mineral deal that he was there to sign wasn't enough even though Trump said that security would be addressed.

He rudely interrupted President Trump about the description of Ukrainian cities for no apparent reason. Never once thanked the US for all of it's help.

When VP Vance talked about how diplomacy needs to be used to end this war and not chest thumping like the past administration did, Zelenskyy thought it would be a good idea to attack him and tell him it wont work.

Zelenskyy then went on a rant, in the Oval Office, lecturing President Trump about how the Obama,Trump,and Biden admins didn't stop Russia from breaking deals. Talking over his host the whole time.

Zelenskyy screwed up by insulting the very people who are trying to save his country. Hopefully the damage can be repaired. JMO.
Not what most of the world saw tbh. Not just what why would he sign the deal with no security in place?
 
  • #629
Yes at least 3 of trump's egocentric pressers recently have resulted in a world leader correcting him on important issues. Lets not forget also King of Jordan telling Trump "lets not get ahead of ourselves" on moving Palestinians out of the Gaza and specifically telling Trump that he would accept only 2,000 children on humanitarian basis (sick and injured) only. Big question. Why hasn't Trump invited Putin to the Whitehouse to "negotiate a deal on camera?
Didn't Macron correct him on something also last week?
 
  • #630
Incidentally why does Trump not think Zelensky should be involved in the peace talks? It is his country after all?
 
  • #631
Soldiers and many many others say differently. Saying that 50/50 is way higher than Trump claims.
His popularity surged massively after the televised White House debacle. Ukrainians felt insulted IMO MOO.

So what was it behind all that negative propaganda and claiming Zelensky was a Dictator who didn't have elections? To try and topple him - to appease Putin? Get rid of the strong leader and the country might crumble and then no war? JMO
 
  • #632
The things he said about Zelensky were all pretty much wrong tbh. Firstly he has a similar approval rating to Trump. Secondly he was elected President. When they were invaded ALL Parliament said there would be no elections during the war. Therefore he was elected. Thirdly Putin invaded them. Zelensky did not start it which raises the question why is he trying so hard to turn people against Zelensky by lieing?
Also, the comment that Zelensky is going to cause WWIII.

Umm, who exactly has those magic buttons that unleash WWIII? Not Zelenskyy, that's for sure...

It reminds me of that horrible phrase "Look what you made me do"...
 
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  • #633
A war that cost us a whole load of money? hardly
A whole lot of money and the troops over there assisting with Ukraine, their training, their kit, their equipment.

Yep, we've all just been sitting here twiddling our thumbs apparently; I should tell my 2nd eldest that he's doing nothing over there and should come home now instead of 5 months from now as scheduled.

The attached chart is helpful when discussing contributions to Ukraine. The column on the right shows the output by nations to Ukraine ... and the percentage contributed per citizen of that nation (ie: % GDP).

Denmark leads the way (they're at 2.2%!!) and Sweden and the United Kingdom pulling in 2nd and 3rd. Netherlands in 4th and Canada in 5th as to percentage of support to Ukraine per citizen. The US sits at 6th.


1740966679783.png


.
 
  • #634
‘Trump is abandoning Ukraine and wants a weaker EU’: Dominique de Villepin on Europe’s moment of truth

As Donald Trump alienates America’s oldest allies at alarming speed, European leaders are scrambling to adjust to the new, chaotic world order. But De Villepin believes there is also an opportunity for Europe to unite behind liberal democracy and fill the vacuum left behind by the Trump administration. He is convinced that there is an urgent need for European independence in defence, national security and technology.

[…]

Trump’s foreign policy is unpredictable, but he appears now to side with Russia over Ukraine. Even as Macron was at the White House attempting to salvage transatlantic ties, the US voted with Russia against a UN resolution condemning Vladimir Putin’s war. North Korea and Belarus were among only a handful of other nations that followed the US.

“We now have three illiberal superpowers: Russia, China and the US,” De Villepin says. “America can no longer be considered an ally of Europe.” But he warns that the US will not prosper in this disordered, survival-of-the-fittest world it is creating, “because they will be completely isolated”.

Leftist media lies, imo. Liberal media outlet headlines that simply are not true (imo). The US provided 70 billion in direct military aid to Ukraine (per state dept website as of 1/20/25). 70 Billion. Plus another 20 billion recently agreed to as loan. Not a tiny 2.8 billion loan.. Not a
even tinier 13 million dollars..

It is an outrageous lie to say the US hasn’t and doesn’t support Ukraine. Trump and the US Government are not “abandoning” anybody. That is nothing but left-wing -biased EU and US media lies (does anybody even pretend anymore that MSM is unbiased?) and bloviating virtue signaling by EU politicians who will run for the hills ar the first sign of major conflict.

The obvious facts are:

- Russia already has Crimea and has had it for years. The time for the US, the EU and NATO to have done anything about this militarily was back then - at that time. Instead, they chose meaningless sanctions. The EU, NATO, and the US chose not to intervene.

- Russia already has most of the Donbas border region that it claims belongs to Russia. This regional dispute is not new. It has been going on since the split up of the Soviet Union. It will keep going on, at some level, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.

- Russia is not giving Crimea or the regions they now control in Donbas back - not after the loss of 1 million soldiers. To think otherwise is incredibly naive.

- if you think some entity has both the will and the capability (politically, financially, and militarily) to “take back” Crimea and the border regions and gift them back to Ukraine, just who do you propose this to be?

Remember, this conflict has been going on forever, just like many other conflicts around the world have been going on forever: North and South Korea, Vietnam, The Troubles, Israel Palestine, Turkey - Kurds, Tibet, the Hutu’s and the Tutsi’s, Taiwan and China, India and China, and hundreds more civil wars.

- any attempt by the US - given the current political climate, given the massive recent diplomatic failures and violations of diplomacy perpetrated by Ukraine, France, UK, US, Germany and others, and the escalation of things in the globalist media, - the egos now stirred up to the stratosphere - make ANY compromise almost impossible. Well done Volod

Loudmouth globalist govt and media voices engaging in childish name-calling and flat out lies are extinguishing any hope of compromise. They are advocating for actions that may well result in World War III. Global conflict. Possible total destruction and occupation of Europe. Is that what you want? Do you have a crystal ball? Is it worth it?

- what Zelinskyy is asking for is not even possible. There will NEVER be a “secured peace” in that region. Never has been, never will be. Imo one cannot be achieved, I don’t care who you put on the team (and, you’re not going to get the US to risk American lives (or EU nations to risk their young people’s lives) to constantly fight DMZ type war for the next 30 years in the Donbas region.

The US has been involved in conflicts like that before (while also trying to save the world from communism or other great evils): Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan. Conflicts like that NEVER end. The US population right now (and for the foreseeable future from my perspective as a US citizen) has ZERO appetite for war. ZERO

Globalists and socialists who think they can goad the US into starting WW III or into entering the US into another Vietnam by throwing hissy fits, calling people names, hurling insults, and often just flat out making up lies, need to think again. It ain’t happening.

Prior to Zelenski’s attempt to humiliate the US into doing his will on national TV, the US had already agreed generously to help rebuild Ukraine (to the tune of many billions) in exchange for minerals. Read the agreement. This was not exploitation no matter what the leftist media would have you to believe.

Zelensky, after agreeing to the deal and to seeking peace, basically came into the US White House, and in front of the entire world, gave the US administration the finger. I would not be surprised at this point if Zelensky is never let back in the country.

Other than a few day dreaming elite globalists, Zelensky seems to be the only person in the world who thinks he can reclaim Crimea and Donbas and have everlasting peace, - secured by everybody but Ukraine. He is an egomaniacal fool, continuing to cause unnecessary death for his countrymen. I hope he comes to his senses soon.

Given his attitude and recent actions, I wish I had more hope, but I really don’t. I do however wish Ukraine and the EU good luck in their efforts to defeat Russia.

All jmo
 
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  • #635
Does anyone know if there’s a complete full text transcript of the Oval Office meeting somewhere ? I’m only finding edited versions. Thanks !
 
  • #636
Didn't Macron correct him on something also last week?
Yes Trump claimed the US had given Ukraine a lot more money than Europe - Macron put his hand on Trump's arm to get to say something. Because it wasn't true! MOO

Incidentally why does Trump not think Zelensky should be involved in the peace talks? It is his country after all?

Because Trump wants to be the world peace-maker, arbitrator and mediator and get the Nobel Peace Prize IMO :-) If so he needs to go on a training course! MOO JMO
 
  • #637
MAR 1, 2025
When the Kyiv Independent reached out to soldiers, several said they couldn’t respond properly due to Russian shelling and strikes that occurred in the hours following the tumultuous meeting.

Bart, special forces sniper Pokrovsk direction​

"I am in f**king shock.

Me and all my guys support Zelensky, I would do the same if I were him, I am very disappointed in Trump and the United States. I can't even find the words to express my disappointment, let him openly express his support for (Russian President Vladimir) Putin and impose some sanctions on us or whatever he wants
."

Vadym, Ukrainian soldier fighting near Pokrovsk​

"Trump is a pragmatist. He has no empathy, doesn’t understand what’s happening, and doesn’t even want to. To him, both sides — us and Russia — are morally equal in their actions.

He reduces everything to money, but I can’t help but recall the saying that true strength lies not in money, but in truth. And the truth is on our side."


(Many more at the link)
 
  • #638
So what was it behind all that negative propaganda and claiming Zelensky was a Dictator who didn't have elections? 1. To try and topple him 2. to appease Putin? 3. Get rid of the strong leader and the country might crumble and then no war? JMO
Respectfully edited by me.

I'll take door number 2.
 
  • #639
Leftist media lies, imo. Liberal media outlet headlines that simply are not true (imo). The US provided 70 billion in direct military aid to Ukraine (per state dept website as of 1/20/25). 70 Billion. Plus another 20 billion recently agreed to as loan. Not a tiny 2.8 billion loan.. Not a
even tinier 13 million dollars..

It is an outrageous lie to say the US hasn’t and doesn’t support Ukraine. Trump and the US Government are not “abandoning” anybody. That is nothing but left-wing -biased EU and US media lies (does anybody even pretend anymore that MSM is unbiased?) and bloviating virtue signaling by EU politicians who will run for the hills ar the first sign of major conflict.

The obvious facts are:

- Russia already has Crimea and has had it for years. The time for the US, the EU and NATO to have done anything about this militarily was back then - at that time. Instead, they chose meaningless sanctions. The EU, NATO, and the US chose not to intervene.

- Russia already has most of the Donbas border region that it claims belongs to Russia. This regional dispute is not new. It has been going on for over 100 years. It will keep going on, at some level, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.

- Russia is not giving Crimea or the regions they now control in Donbas back - not after the loss of 1 million soldiers. To think otherwise is incredibly naive.

- if you think some entity has both the will and the capability (politically, financially, and militarily) to “take back” Crimea and the border regions and gift them back to Ukraine, just who do you propose this to be?

Remember, this conflict has been going on forever, just like many other conflicts around the world have been going on forever: North and South Korea, Vietnam, The Troubles, Israel Palestine, Turkey - Kurds, Tibet, the Hutu’s and the Tutsi’s, Taiwan and China, India and China, and hundreds more civil wars.

- any attempt by the US - given the current political climate, given the massive recent diplomatic failures and violations of diplomacy perpetrated by Ukraine, France, UK, US, Germany and others, and the escalation of things in the globalist media, - the egos now stirred up to the stratosphere - make ANY compromise almost impossible. Well done Vlad

Loudmouth globalist govt and media voices engaging in childish name-calling and flat out lies are extinguishing any hope of compromise. They are advocating for actions that may well result in World War III. Global conflict. Possible total destruction and occupation of Europe. Is that what you want? Do you have a crystal ball? Is it worth it?

- what Zelinskyy is asking for is not even possible. There will NEVER be a “secure peace” in that region. Never has been, never will be. Imo one cannot be achieved, I don’t care who you put on the team (and, you’re not going to get the US to risk American lives (or EU nations to risk their young people’s lives) to constantly fight DMZ type war for the next 30 years in the Donbas region.

The US has been involved in conflicts like that before (while also trying to save the world from communism or other great evils): Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan. Conflicts like that NEVER end. The US population right now (and for the foreseeable future from my perspective as a US citizen) has ZERO appetite for war. ZERO

Globalists and socialists who think they can goad the US into starting WW III or into entering the US into another Vietnam by throwing hussy fits, calling people names, hurling insults, and often just flat out making up lies, need to think again. It ain’t happening.

Prior to Zelenski’s attempt to humiliate the US into doing his will on national TV, the US had already agreed generously to help rebuild Uktaine (to the tune of many billions in exchange for minerals. Read the agreement. This was not exploration no matter what the leftist media would like you to believe.

Zelensky, after agreeing to the deal and to seeking peace, basically came
into the US White House, and in front of the world, gave the US administration the finger. I would not be surprised at this point if Zelensky is ever let back in the country.

Other than a few day dreaming elite globalists, Zelensky seems to be the only person in the world who thinks he can reclaim Crimea and Donbas and have everlasting peace. He is an egomaniacal fool, continuing to cause unnecessary death for his countrymen. I hope he comes to his senses soon.

Given his attitude and recent actions, I wish I had more hope, but I really don’t. I do however wish Ukraine and the EU good luck in their efforts to defeat Russia.

All jmo
When you say they will not give the Donbas back as they have lost a million people? so what? they illegally invaded it and that caused them to lose those people. The fact remains that they illegally invaded the country, tearing the country apart and murdering and attacking women and are responsible for the deaths. Pretty sure others have lost a lot of people in wars but they havent kept the area
 
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  • #640
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