Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

[Sundog]

"Sitting alongside the Prime Minister and US President Donald Trump, Mr Vance responded to a question about these remarks: “Look, I said what I said, which is that we do have, of course, a special relationship with our friends in the UK, and also some of our European allies.

“But we also know that there have been infringements on free speech that actually affect not just the British – of course what the British do in their own country is up to them – but also affect American technology companies and, by extension, American citizens, so that is something that we’ll talk about today at lunch.”

Sir Keir then responded: “Well, we’ve had free speech for a very, very long time in the United Kingdom and it will last for a very, very long time.

“Certainly, we wouldn’t want to reach across US citizens, and we don’t, and that’s absolutely right, but in relation to free speech in the UK I’m very proud of our history there.”"

Does Vance just believe conspiracy theories on Elon Musk's Twitter? Or has he actually been to the UK? I don't think so! Like he hasn't been to Ukraine (once possibly).

He is not a diplomat - he is a loud mouthed troublemaker IMO. He should not have been at that press conference - it should have just been Zelensky and Trump. Not Trump and a bunch of thugs.

JMO MOO

That wasn't a"bunch of thugs", that was the duly appointed and Senate confirmed Cabinet of the current administration, an honorable group of public servants. And of course the Vice President of the United States would be in attendance along with the President and his Cabinet Members. That is pro forma at an event like this.

 

[Amika69]

It is now clear that Zelensky does not want peace and less deaths in Ukraine. He is addicted to the billions given to him with no accountability and no return of funds. He now thinks he can waltz into any western country and be treated like a rock star. Well the issue as Trump clearly stated is that there is no clear path to victory unless US and NATO are directly involved and that is WW III. So compromise is the key. Live and fight another day. USA companies in Ukraine mining minerals is the defacto security guarantee. Now Europe can deal with him and we stop funding a bottomless pit.

 

[SouthAussie]

It is now clear that Zelensky does not want peace and less deaths in Ukraine. He is addicted to the billions given to him with no accountability and no return of funds. He now thinks he can waltz into any western country and be treated like a rock star. Well the issue as Trump clearly stated is that there is no clear path to victory unless US and NATO are directly involved and that is WW III. So compromise is the key. Live and fight another day. USA companies in Ukraine mining minerals is the defacto security guarantee. Now Europe can deal with him and we stop funding a bottomless pit.

Of course Zelenskyy wants peace and NO death. The Ukraine people also do not want to give up territory, speak Russian, have their religion and history torn apart, be forbidden to ask the West for help .... etc etc.

These were some of Putin's many peace terms in 2022 (I posted them all further back). What makes you think that has changed? Because Trump wants Ukraine's minerals?

imo

 

[Rush4087]

Honestly I feel like I'm living in Orwell's 1984. Just because something is said doesn't make it truth. DT has been fact checked over and over, the man talks absolute bull. I'm not sure if he is a dictator or just simply delusional. Has anyone thought about a cognitive assessment for Mr President??

Welcome to the way we’ve been feeling since ‘08. Just switch the initials to JB and ya got it. Talks bull (check, though not as skillfully as Harris), dictator (check, without question. Ran country with cronies and non elected donors, ignored whatever laws they didn’t like, fabricated hoaxes, weaponized DOJ against enemies, vexatious lawfare show trials), delusional and in cognitive decline (check, as diagnosed by doctor who said he was just an old man with a very poor memory. Cognitive impairment? Check. Just watch the debate.

All jmo

 

[SouthAussie]

@Amika69 ... and for anyone else who may not be aware, these were Putin's last peace terms for Ukraine (2022).

We have yet to see if any of these terms have changed, as no-one (other than the US) has been privy to any meetings with Russia. And the US has not revealed what has been tentatively agreed on (without Ukraine's input) - if anything.

• Ukraine was expected to cede Crimea and the Donbas region outright
• while also accepting the ongoing occupation of areas then under Russian control until Moscow deemed that its conditions had been fully met
• Kyiv would also have been forced to grant Russian the status of official state language
• and adopt a range of laws targeting Ukrainian religion, history, and national identity
• Russia called for the Ukrainian army to be drastically reduced to a skeleton force of just fifty thousand personnel
• tight restrictions were to be imposed on the quantity of armor Ukraine could possess, the types of missiles the country could develop, and the size of the Ukrainian Air Force
• The Kremlin’s peace plan also obliged Ukraine to renounce its NATO membership ambitions and agree not to enter into bilateral alliances or seek military aid from Western countries
• Russia also somewhat absurdly insisted on a veto over any international response to future attacks on Ukraine

Putin’s 2022 ‘peace proposal’ was a blueprint for the destruction of Ukraine

New details of talks between Russia and Ukraine during spring 2022 confirm that Putin’s alleged peace proposal was in fact a call for unconditional surrender and a blueprint for the destruction of the Ukrainian state, writes Peter Dickinson.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

imo

 

[Fairy1]

Zelensky will run out of fighting age men before he runs out of the loans from the EU in his futile effort to win this war. Had he listened to President Trump, he would have saved countless lives and treasure before finally suffering the defeat he has coming.

As will Russia. Which is why they've stolen and indoctrinated thousands of Ukrainian children. Their next generation military.

 

[branmuffin]

Trump's illogic "logic" defies comprehension.

imo

His ability to see in the future was way off, too. In 2016 in an interview with George Stephanopoulos he said this "Just so you understand. [Putin is] not going to go into Ukraine, all right? You can mark it down and you can put it down. You can take it anywhere you want." At the time Putin had already annexed Crimea (2014). He thinks Crimea is more Russian than Ukrainian. I think he based that on some back alley convos he had with Putin after Russia held a referendum for people of Crimea asking if they wanted to be part of Russia. Bear in mind that referendum was after the annexation and after Putin had the population of Crimea passportized which is a mass conferral of citizenship. Who in their right mind would put a target on their back by saying they don't agree? Gulags, defenestration and Siberia probably still wear heavy around the necks of those under the thumb of the USSR. I swear Donald Trump is incapable of parsing information or he's a Russian asset.

Trump Says He Would Consider Recognizing Crimea As Part Of Russia

The Republican candidate for U.S. president, Donald Trump, has said that, if elected, he would consider recognizing Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimean Peninsula.

www.rferl.org

Were Crimeans really pro-Russian before annexation? | LSE Research

Eleanor Knott’s new book "Kin Majorities" explores issues of identity and citizenship in Crimea before annexation by Russia.

www.lse.ac.uk

 

[Sundog]

Leftist media lies, imo. Liberal media outlet headlines that simply are not true (imo). The US provided 70 billion in direct military aid to Ukraine (per state dept website as of 1/20/25). 70 Billion. Plus another 20 billion recently agreed to as loan. Not a tiny 2.8 billion loan.. Not a
even tinier 13 million dollars..

It is an outrageous lie to say the US hasn’t and doesn’t support Ukraine. Trump and the US Government are not “abandoning” anybody. That is nothing but left-wing -biased EU and US media lies (does anybody even pretend anymore that MSM is unbiased?) and bloviating virtue signaling by EU politicians who will run for the hills ar the first sign of major conflict.

The obvious facts are:

- Russia already has Crimea and has had it for years. The time for the US, the EU and NATO to have done anything about this militarily was back then - at that time. Instead, they chose meaningless sanctions. The EU, NATO, and the US chose not to intervene.

- Russia already has most of the Donbas border region that it claims belongs to Russia. This regional dispute is not new. It has been going on since the split up of the Soviet Union. It will keep going on, at some level, no matter what happens in the next 6 months.

- Russia is not giving Crimea or the regions they now control in Donbas back - not after the loss of 1 million soldiers. To think otherwise is incredibly naive.

- if you think some entity has both the will and the capability (politically, financially, and militarily) to “take back” Crimea and the border regions and gift them back to Ukraine, just who do you propose this to be?

Remember, this conflict has been going on forever, just like many other conflicts around the world have been going on forever: North and South Korea, Vietnam, The Troubles, Israel Palestine, Turkey - Kurds, Tibet, the Hutu’s and the Tutsi’s, Taiwan and China, India and China, and hundreds more civil wars.

- any attempt by the US - given the current political climate, given the massive recent diplomatic failures and violations of diplomacy perpetrated by Ukraine, France, UK, US, Germany and others, and the escalation of things in the globalist media, - the egos now stirred up to the stratosphere - make ANY compromise almost impossible. Well done Volod

Loudmouth globalist govt and media voices engaging in childish name-calling and flat out lies are extinguishing any hope of compromise. They are advocating for actions that may well result in World War III. Global conflict. Possible total destruction and occupation of Europe. Is that what you want? Do you have a crystal ball? Is it worth it?

- what Zelinskyy is asking for is not even possible. There will NEVER be a “secured peace” in that region. Never has been, never will be. Imo one cannot be achieved, I don’t care who you put on the team (and, you’re not going to get the US to risk American lives (or EU nations to risk their young people’s lives) to constantly fight DMZ type war for the next 30 years in the Donbas region.

The US has been involved in conflicts like that before (while also trying to save the world from communism or other great evils): Vietnam, Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan. Conflicts like that NEVER end. The US population right now (and for the foreseeable future from my perspective as a US citizen) has ZERO appetite for war. ZERO

Globalists and socialists who think they can goad the US into starting WW III or into entering the US into another Vietnam by throwing hissy fits, calling people names, hurling insults, and often just flat out making up lies, need to think again. It ain’t happening.

Prior to Zelenski’s attempt to humiliate the US into doing his will on national TV, the US had already agreed generously to help rebuild Ukraine (to the tune of many billions) in exchange for minerals. Read the agreement. This was not exploitation no matter what the leftist media would have you to believe.

Zelensky, after agreeing to the deal and to seeking peace, basically came into the US White House, and in front of the entire world, gave the US administration the finger. I would not be surprised at this point if Zelensky is never let back in the country.

Other than a few day dreaming elite globalists, Zelensky seems to be the only person in the world who thinks he can reclaim Crimea and Donbas and have everlasting peace, - secured by everybody but Ukraine. He is an egomaniacal fool, continuing to cause unnecessary death for his countrymen. I hope he comes to his senses soon.

Given his attitude and recent actions, I wish I had more hope, but I really don’t. I do however wish Ukraine and the EU good luck in their efforts to defeat Russia.

All jmo

Well said!

 

[Lilibet]

Honestly I feel like I'm living in Orwell's 1984. Just because something is said doesn't make it truth. DT has been fact checked over and over, the man talks absolute bull. I'm not sure if he is a dictator or just simply delusional. Has anyone thought about a cognitive assessment for Mr President??

Yes, we are living in 1984. Yes, plenty of people have suggested a cognitive assessment. Dream on. A delusional dictator? Probably.

He is a wannabe autocrat who has become one very quickly partly thanks to executive orders and Musk tearing apart the civil service. Lawsuits can’t keep up. There are no longer any checks and balances as designed by the founding fathers…he owns the SCOTUS and Congress and the Justice Department. And he is Putin’s pet. I follow several experts on autocracy such as Timothy Snyder and Ruth Ben-Ghiat on Substack and they are not optimistic.

Unfortunately, Silicon Valley tech bros who believe in replacing democracy with autocracy have gained influence…Musk and Peter Thiel, Vance’s former employer and financial mentor, to name two. They are among disciples of Curtis Yarvin who teaches that the government should be run like a business with a CEO/monarch in charge. The New Right Movement is also a factor. Bringing this back around to what happened on Friday and since, here is a quote about the New Right from the Salon articles…
“the New Right movement, which focuses on national sovereignty instead of international cooperation.”

JD Vance owes almost everything to Peter Thiel, a pro-Trump billionaire and "New Right" ideologue

Peter Thiel has been supporting Trump's newly selected running mate since before he entered politics

www.salon.com

Who is Curtis Yarvin? Conservative linked to JD Vance wants "monarchy"

The conservative blogger argues that governmental bureaucracy should be stripped and that the U.S. should be replaced with a more centralized "monarchy."

www.newsweek.com

Rachel Maddow sounds alarm on JD Vance's pro-dictatorship influences

The MSNBC host flagged Vance's constant invocation of Curtis Yarvin as part of his GOP agenda

www.salon.com

Sorry, but it’s probably too late and we need to recognize it for what it is.

JMO

 

[PommyMommy]

Forging warriors: Ukraine’s recruits train for battle.

Through exhaustion, mud, and cold, they push past limits - jumping into snow, deploying in formation, and mastering combat skills.

Strength is built through discipline. The fight begins long before the battlefield.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896426308281725291

We pay tribute to the men & women who stood to fight the Russian invaders.

They will never be forgotten.

RIP – Andrii Mazanovych, Yevhenii Makarenko (32), Yurii Mihas, Oleh Mykhailiuk

These put their bodiesBtwn us & the flaming skies...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896440904698757343

 

[snarast]

From watching the entire video of the Oval Office PC it's clear to me that President Trump showed restraint when Zelenskyy first rudely interrupted him.

After Zelenskyy launched his rant about how the US let Ukraine down and how the US will feel I saw a President who stood up for all Americans. It made me very proud that he is my President after watching how he handled the rude and obnoxious behavior of Zelenskyy. JMO.

I would advise Z to show up dressed in cloth of gold next time. To show the appropriate amount of respect to this man (DT) of wealth and taste.

 

[LovesPeace2]

His many remarks about Canada are deeply offensive and alarming. There's absolutely no reason to speak of Canada and its leaders as Trump does, nor is there any reason to threaten them. Such incredible damage Trump has inflicted on all of us.

2 nd gen Ukrainian Canadian here , we are sad and disgusted and angry in canada.We no longer trust our southern neighbours . I have lost friends and family in the war in Ukraine And we still support President Zelensky .I myself hope President Zelensky never signs a contract for mineral rights in Ukraini We can't trust trump to honor anything. Jmoo

 

[Jade]

Welcome to the way we’ve been feeling since ‘08. Just switch the initials to JB and ya got it. Talks bull (check, though not as skillfully as Harris), dictator (check, without question. Ran country with cronies and non elected donors, ignored whatever laws they didn’t like, fabricated hoaxes, weaponized DOJ against enemies, vexatious lawfare show trials), delusional and in cognitive decline (check, as diagnosed by doctor who said he was just an old man with a very poor memory. Cognitive impairment? Check. Just watch the debate.

All jmo

No comparision to past administrations.

Elon Musk.

An unelected leader has taken over the Oval Office undoing Senate's work and dictating to Trump what work to do and how it's done.

Say what you want about Harris but she didn't ever cause an international embarrassment like Vance has with an unhinged hissy fit that removed the US as world leaders.

Vance made a fool out of Trump, Rubio just sat there, and the world aghast laughing behind their hands at the dunces.

Vance left out in all the Musk worship has a whiny chip on his shoulder, easily bruised ego and had nothing of any substance to add to the meeting so he whined for attention.

Vance sounded like a drunk abuser home from the bar repeatedly demanding respect with none deserved. Looked like he was getting sweaty over it too.


All imo

 

[STAGNUM]

It starts before Vance ever says a word. It starts with the eye rolls by President Zelenskyy, throughout. You won’t find in a transcript, Z calling V the b word in his language. UGH even President Biden found Z to be ungrateful. tbh

Z did not call Vance a B word. Where do you get this stuff? Have you listened to the video?

 

[Lucy6226]

Vice President Vance's speech was critical in terms of the issue of freedom of speech which is one of the hallmarks of western democracy and it is disappearing from the UK and EU, and the Vice President gave examples of how free speech is being denied to citizens abroad. It was an excellent speech, IMO, and very timely and with no time to lose.

RBBM

Is it though?? Just because someone states an opinion, doesn't make it fact. Where are the statistics for these 'facts'?

The UK has far more freedom of speech and free will than America at the moment imo. This is my opinion based on a number a policies implemented by the US, which I won't go into as off topic. But the world is watching and seeing DT for what he is, and it's not pretty.

 

[STAGNUM]

Vice President Vance's speech was critical in terms of the issue of freedom of speech which is one of the hallmarks of western democracy and it is disappearing from the UK and EU, and the Vice President gave examples of how free speech is being denied to citizens abroad. It was an excellent speech, IMO, and very timely and with no time to lose.

Yet at same time he was shouting over Zelenskyy and preventing him from expressing his concerns. Then Trump starts shouting that Zelenskyy is "too hateful" about the Putin invader who killed his people. JD Vance only wants freedom of speech that further his political gain. Dissenters cannot express their opinions in the MAGA world.

 

[branmuffin]

Looks like Zelenskyy is going ahead with the US mineral deal. Is anyone going to try and stop him from doing this? JMO.

Zelensky has agreed to the mineral deal as long as the inclusion of a peace deal is part of the package. He hasn't changed his stance at all. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said on Sunday March 2 that it was impossible to have an economic deal without a peace deal. So it sounds like he agrees with Zelensky. Bessent was the one who crafted the agreement. A Treasury Secretary crafting a peace deal seems a little off to me considering he was a hedge fund manager with absolutely zero experience in politics and international diplomacy. He admitted that the deal was the first 'building block' toward securing a peace deal. Without knowing what the second building block of the 'agreement' is, Zelensky will still be reluctant to sign it since it's quite possible those other 'building blocks' crafted by Trump and his hedge fund manager could be influenced by Trump's eagerness to please his buddy Putin. Maybe something along the lines of, I dunno, Crimea for Putin and the 'raw earth' for Donnie. He also said that Zelensky tried to relitigate the peace deal in front of the cameras. It's hard to relitigate a peace deal when you weren't privy to the contents in the first place. You know why, because it wasn't a peace deal. It was a trap. According to Bessent Trump still wants a peace deal but it still seems like he's not willing to share what that is. Hmmm, I wonder why?

There's been a lot of wars over the centuries but there seems to be an actual process when it comes to brokering peace deals. And it sounds like no one in the Trump administration have a clue as to what the process is.

Treasury Secretary says Ukraine economic deal is not on the table after Zelenskyy "chose to blow that up"

Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said an economic deal with Ukraine is not currently on the table after a contentious Oval Office meeting.

www.cbsnews.com

Peace Agreements

By Nita Yawanarajah Julian Ouellet September 2003 What are Peace Agreements? This essay was written in collaboration with the UN Peacemaker Databank, Policy Planning Unit, Department of Political Affairs, United Nations. This databank will be available online beginning in April 2006. Peace...

www.beyondintractability.org

 

[branmuffin]

'Europe has woken up' - Leaders react after summit

More reaction from other European leaders now, firstly from Poland's Prime Minister Donald Tusk.

He has posted on X to say "Europe has woken up", alongside a photograph of the leaders at the summit earlier today.

Tusk says those present "all speak with one voice about helping Ukraine, the need for close transatlantic cooperation and strengthening the eastern border".

Italy's prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, has given her reaction too, and says "the one thing we absolutely cannot afford is a peace [in Ukraine] that does not last".

She continues: "We must be very careful when assessing what is being proposed, particularly in response to this key question: could this peace be violated? Because, unfortunately, we have seen this happen in the past."

And there have been words on X too from outgoing German Chancellor Olaf Scholz, who mentions that being "transatlantic allies" in Nato remains "the key for security" in the US, Canada and Europe.

He says the alliance has been strengthened in recent years "with new members and defence spending" and that is "the path we will continue to follow in the future as well".

Dutch Prime Minister Dick Schoof, also on X, reiterates that Europe "must take a greater role in ensuring safety for our continent" and adds that "good transatlantic relations are also indispensable".

Zelensky tells BBC Ukraine 'ready to sign' minerals deal with US

The Ukrainian president's comments to Laura Kuenssberg came after he failed to sign the deal at the White House on Friday.

www.bbc.co.uk

This worries me, though.

Orbán and Fico look to derail European unity on Ukraine ahead of London summit

Hungary and Slovakia call for direct talks with Russia and energy concessions, pushing a stance that could weaken EU support for Kyiv and legitimize Russian gains.

www.politico.eu

 

[branmuffin]

I would advise Z to show up dressed in cloth of gold next time. To show the appropriate amount of respect to this man (DT) of wealth and taste.

Pleased to meet you, can you guess my name.

 

[Bluebear15]

Trump is on Putin's side in this war - it's clear by his comments and attacks on Zelenskyy. Ironically the US used to call supporters of Russia 'pinkos' and 'commies'. I hope the UK rethinks its connections with such a fascist administration. Jmo, moo.