4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #103

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I am wondering if he also wore the flat kind of night vision glasses along with the balaclava. Not the goggles, but the kind that look almost like a mini visor across the eye area and obscure the eyes- but not a prominent brow ridge - from view.
 
Rsbm

At about 6:26 , AT accuses LE of being misleading in their wording of DM's interview statements. In the PCA it said that she 'thought' that she had heard a roommate come to the stairs and say something----

But AT then adamantly states that this was NOT what DM said in her interviews. What DM really said according to AT, was that she was sure she heard the victim on the stairs talking---And AT then states it as fact that it was impossible for that to have happened because the victim was killed in the bed and never came down the stairs,

Rsbm
So on any of this did we ever hear an exact account of what DM actually said? We just hear what AT say DM said was in the doc. Say the doc said DM "heard Kaylee say someone is here?" Or "what sounded like Kaylee" And AT is putting her OWN interpretation of that meant DM was SURE it was Kaylee, but that not what she said. I've seen AT do that so very many times. (I don't have an example, but when I find one I'll post it).

It doesn't make the PCA or what DM said false at all unless the exact words in DMs affidavit used "sure" ot "positive". It means in her normal world, she heard the dog, assumed it was Kaylee playing with the dog and heard a female voice say "someone is here" so who wouldn't have assumed Kaylee at that point? (I still think it was Xana and she said "Is someone here"? Jmo) AT cannot possibly mean that DM didn't see someone strange in her house. Obviously there was.

If she wants to hit with DM being inebriated, ok. She just happened to see bushy eyebrows and the idiot who left the sheath that is for a knife consistent with the weapon that was used to kill four people and also left his DNA on it happens to have bushy eyebrows and supposedly was never in that house. Nothing to see here.

As if bushy eyebrows aren't an identifier of many people who did not leave DNA evidence behind......

Have we seen any official statement by DM published anywhere? (I miss so many things)
 
The new documents from the other day (States exhibit S-9 I think). Alot of it is redacted but what I can see is:
Delivery DD date and time- 11/13/2022 @3:59am
Delivery ID ?
Total of the order- $22.35
Addresss of delivery- 1122 King Road.
Looks like longitude and latitude points of the delivery.
**Jack in the Box

Did I read that right?
If it is right, I can see $22.35 for one person. I bet there are different charges added.
Door Dash adds their own service and delivery charges to the order and customers often add tips. For example, while I was out of town last week, my husband purchased a Cobb salad with extra grilled chicken totaling about $23. Door Dash’s delivery charge on that order was $6.49, service charge was $3.88. There was a local paper bag fee of $.08, and tax of $3.74, and my husband added a $20 tip (experience has demonstrated that a minimum $15-20 tip is required if you want a DD driver to accept the order driving to our area which is some distance out). Total was over $60.

And this is why I urge my husband to just call and place the order directly to the restaurant and pick the order up himself on his way home from work!
 
So on any of this did we ever hear an exact account of what DM actually said? We just hear what AT say DM said was in the doc. Say the doc said DM "heard Kaylee say someone is here?" Or "what sounded like Kaylee" And AT is putting her OWN interpretation of that meant DM was SURE it was Kaylee, but that not what she said. I've seen AT do that so very many times. (I don't have an example, but when I find one I'll post it).

It doesn't make the PCA or what DM said false at all unless the exact words in DMs affidavit used "sure" ot "positive". It means in her normal world, she heard the dog, assumed it was Kaylee playing with the dog and heard a female voice say "someone is here" so who wouldn't have assumed Kaylee at that point? (I still think it was Xana and she said "Is someone here"? Jmo) AT cannot possibly mean that DM didn't see someone strange in her house. Obviously there was.

If she wants to hit with DM being inebriated, ok. She just happened to see bushy eyebrows and the idiot who left the sheath that is for a knife consistent with the weapon that was used to kill four people and also left his DNA on it happens to have bushy eyebrows and supposedly was never in that house. Nothing to see here.

As if bushy eyebrows aren't an identifier of many people who did not leave DNA evidence behind......

Have we seen any official statement by DM published anywhere? (I miss so many things)
I think lots of people are putting their own interpretation on what DM meant, not just AT. It will be useful to hear directly from DM.
MOO
 
I am wondering if he also wore the flat kind of night vision glasses along with the balaclava. Not the goggles, but the kind that look almost like a mini visor across the eye area and obscure the eyes- but not a prominent brow ridge - from view.
It would make sense but I don't see it given her description. She said he was looking at her.
 
<modsnip: Quoted post was removed> Isn't there an uncharge for the each of the items since they were ordered via Door Dash and isn't there also a delivery fee included in the order too? I don't use Door Dash so I'm just asking questions. Thank you
 
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Door Dash adds their own service and delivery charges to the order and customers often add tips. For example, while I was out of town last week, my husband purchased a Cobb salad with extra grilled chicken totaling about $23. Door Dash’s delivery charge on that order was $6.49, service charge was $3.88. There was a local paper bag fee of $.08, and tax of $3.74, and my husband added a $20 tip (experience has demonstrated that a minimum $15-20 tip is required if you want a DD driver to accept the order driving to our area which is some distance out). Total was over $60.

And this is why I urge my husband to just call and place the order directly to the restaurant and pick the order up himself on his way home from work!
Thank you so much for sharing this information. I knew it was upcharge for the food and the the delivery charges. WOW.
 
Isn't there an uncharge for the each of the items since they were ordered via Door Dash and isn't there also a delivery fee included in the order too? I don't use Door Dash so I'm just asking questions. Thank you

Just so you know DD in Moscow is affordable-ish (pretty competitive compared to larger areas). If you are a member you don't pay fees, you can't control all of the costs but it's reasonable (often no delivery fees, up charges, etc.). Items are what you pay at the restaurant + tax & small tip. Perhaps it's different elsewhere. JMOO

Looking at their menu now on the local app, they even have build your own meal where you select four items for 15 bucks (not that I have ever ordered from Jack in The Box in Pullman). I imagine that plus tax and tip gets you to $22.
 
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This is interesting and maybe there are several definitions.


Sort of temporary amnesia & wandering. Wow. I once went into shock and, in retrospect, was amazed at what my body went through as well as my mind. I don't remember much, all of my coping just gave up. JMOO

I was in an emergency room on a gurney so no wandering but I felt outside of my own body. When I told my mom and the nurse about it they both said it's completely normal which I found odd at the time. The RN went off and got me Valium or similar. Looking back, it was completely normal shock response.

These aren't examples of dissociative fugue (which is relatively rare). This is depersonalization/derealization, which is another type of dissociative disorder.

Dissociative fugue is this type of thing:

Or this:

This is not just shock or temporary dissociation. In a fugue state, the person literally has no idea who they are, where they are, they don't recognize their family members. This is amnesia. While this is usually a trauma response, it is rare and 99% of the time involves travel and sometimes involves the person taking on a new identity. The person dissociates to such a significant degree that they travel, usually quite a distance, because they have no idea what they're doing and unless found, they start a new life for themselves.

There is no indication this happened in this case. If there was, it would likely be played up by the defense because recovered memories after a fugue state are sometimes inaccurate or misinterpreted by the person who experienced the trauma.
 
YES. Fright or Flight. Looks like she got stuck in fright.

It kind of reminds me of kidnapping victims, who when questioned by a police officer trying to help them, may deny they are a hostage. Like the young girl taken from her bedroom by the crazy cult homeless guy and his wife? Can't believe I forgot her name...

The defense mechanism is:
Fight
Flight
Freeze
Fawn

Based on what we know thus far, it seems DM was in flight and freeze mode. This is very different from kidnapping victims who either act out of fear (fawn, meaning they do everything to avoid upsetting their captor) or develop what's colloquially known as "Stockholm Syndrome," which means they bond with their captor and genuinely feel positive feelings toward them. Stockholm Syndrome is similar, though not identical, to trauma bonding. That is not what occurred in this case.

But the police recognised the kidnapper and then turned to her, asking if she was the kidnapped teen and she denied it over and over. Hr mind was frozen in fear mode I guess. She said later that she was still so afraid of him, even though he was in handcuffs and being arrested, she kept thinking 'what if they let him go and he hears me telling on him?

It has made me so curious, about why neither of the survivors just walked upstairs to knock on Xana's door...but I guess they were still in a frozen kind of fugue state?

No indication of anyone being in a fugue state in this case.

Also, the kidnapping victim you're thinking about was Elizabeth Smart.
 
Rereading a filing and saw a part that just made me go "grrr" at the defense.


re: DM's memory accuracy/validity:

"In this case, not only was there an 8 hour delay in reporting, prior to the first law enforcement interview, D.M. was allowed to mingle with B.F. and many other friends. Law enforcement did not separate all of the friends who came to 1122 King Road prior to interviews and no warning was given to not discuss the facts and no effort was made to limit such a discussion. Many of the friends who were at 1122 King Road when police arrived also stayed in the same hotel room the night of November 13, 2022. There was also extensive media coverage. Post event misinformation must be considered as a factor on the accuracy of D.M.’s memory retention."

So, here's when DM was interviewed:

DM literally gave a statement at 12:09 to Officer Nunes after he arrived at the scene where she proceeded to describe the man she saw. At 1:47 she was interviewed by Detective Mowery and provided similar details to what she said at 12:09.

Four days later she was interviewed by ISP and MPD. Similar description and from what I can tell the first mention of noticing the eyebrows (she had mentioned before only being able to see the man's eye area). "And it was, like, they had a ski mask that was covering their forehead, and their chin, and mouth. But I could see the – I – all I remember was seeing their eyebrows. And I don’t – I don’t remember what their eyes looked like, but I remember their eyebrows. I don’t remember the color the eyebrows were. I just remember, like, bushy eyebrows." She was interviewed again on Dec 1.

How long would the defense expect these kids to remain isolated and discuss nothing with anyone else? HJ, EA, and BF wouldn't have contaminated her recall of the man because they never saw him. DM and BF had to go somewhere that evening because their families weren't local and and their home was now a crime scene. Who knows how long it took any of the four kids' families to arrive to be with the kids.

As for "many of the friends who were at the house when police arrived spent the night in the same hotel"---by all accounts and from the photo that showed the kids sitting on the street near the garbage dumpster, it was just HJ, EA, BF, DM and at one point Ethan's brother and sister were notified and joined them. One of the pics by the dumpster appears to show Murphy flopped at the groups' feet. HJ & EA were dating, Hunter had just seen something completely horrific, and all 4 of those kids had just experienced the terror of fearing something was wrong with their friends and then finding out they had all been murdered. Those kids are literally the only people who they could be with, esp if you don't want details getting out to the wider school community.

We may not like it being applied in this case, but in general, it's actually a pretty big deal that officers arrived on the scene of a homicide and did not separate the witnesses before they were questioned. The theory is, they could influence each other. At that time, officers had no idea what was going on, so separating them should have been one of the first steps once it was clear this was a homicide investigation. It's the same reason we don't allow witnesses in the courtroom until they've testified.

MOO.
 
We may not like it being applied in this case, but in general, it's actually a pretty big deal that officers arrived on the scene of a homicide and did not separate the witnesses before they were questioned. The theory is, they could influence each other. At that time, officers had no idea what was going on, so separating them should have been one of the first steps once it was clear this was a homicide investigation. It's the same reason we don't allow witnesses in the courtroom until they've testified.

MOO.

At this point, I want to hear from the police what actually happened. There have been too many times in this case where the defense has made an overly broad statement but then upon further clarification it turns out that what she was implying was misleading.

Yes, there is photo/video taken shortly after the police arrived of the group of kids sitting on the street across from the house. In the three different images I've seen, police are either standing right there over the kids or are walking a few feet away to confer with another group of officers walking towards them. However, we don't know how long they sat there together and if they were separated shortly after that. I can't find any time stamps on those pieces of media, and there aren't very many of them.

DM gave an initial statement on site at 12:09, so shortly after police arrived. By 1:47 the same day, she was down at Moscow police station being interviewed by Mowery. So, we've got a bit less than 1 hr 40 min that is theorized they were together.

When 911 initially sent out emergency vehicles, they did not know there were 4 murders. They sent what was an appropriate amount of response for an unconscious roommate. It's hard to figure out exactly how many people were in the initial response from the 911 call, but definitely one ambulance and possibly 2 different officers. At least one officer was on site before the word "murder" was relayed back to dispatch. In the photo that shows the kids sitting there are only 2 police vehicles on the street--it does not show the driveway/parking area of the house where I assume an ambulance was, so I'm assuming this photo was taken fairly early on.

At that point, I suspect not separating them was a matter of logistics and best usage of resources--initially there weren't enough police vehicles on the scene to put 4-6 kids individually in them...and in some of those kids' cases (particularly DM and BF), I suspect it was determined it wouldn't be best practice to lock a hysterical witness in the back of police vehicle unsupervised. At the early stages there definitely weren't enough officers to sit with each kid in a separate vehicle. In some crimes, you can isolate a few of the witnesses in a separate part of the crime scene, but there's no way you could have gotten any of those kids to step foot back in the house to go to the spare 1st floor bedroom or BF's---not to mention the risk of destroying evidence since no one could be sure where the murderer had been in that house.

Once all the kids had been interviewed in the hours between 1:47 and say 4:30, then what? I don't believe the police have the right at that point to enforce that group of kids from staying away from each other. While they have witnesses not sit in court until they are done testifying, they don't have them be on no contact with each other in the years between the crime and the trial. DM & BF have no home to go to and no local parents. For the sake of protecting the details of the crime and investigation, you don't want to send those girls to go stay at their sorority houses or other friends at U of Idaho. Difficult to keep them in 4-6 separate rooms at the police station until parents get there, especially when this was an all hands on deck case for a relatively small police force. And even once the parents get there, the police are going to want the kids to stay local so they can be interviewed more.

We've seen this kind of overbroad statement from the defense before. I'd like to know a lot more detail.
 
Sorry--this will be long! In this latest batch of documents we see the Defense filed an affidavit from Sy Ray regarding these Timing Advance Records. It's signed 25 March, which is after the prosecution filed the certificate from AT&T--so they're going forward with this claim that the prosecution is hiding these records.

In the State's MIL RE: AT&T Timing Advance Records, the state asked the court to prohibit the defense from making references to the absence of Advance Timing Records for BK.

The State brings this motion based on defense counsels’ repeated references to the alleged existence of AT&T Timing Advance Records related to Defendant’s cell phone.

Any statements or inferences by defense counsel or their witnesses that there is additional evidence that could have been provided, or was not provided, is a mischaracterization of the evidence and should not be allowed.



The defense responds with their Objection to the State's MIL RE: AT&T Timing Advance Records. The defense says that while it's true that Timing Advance Records were not produced by AT&T Global Legal Demand Center until May 2023, the state is misleading the court by what it leaves out--Timing Advance Records were available through a different legal compliance department in November and December of 2022. And the proof of that is in the discovery--there were Timing Advance Records for two of the victims and one person of interest for those time periods.


The state responded with their Reply to Objection to State's MIL RE: ATT&T Timing Advance Records.

Regarding AT&T, before June 2023, AT&T retained timing advance records for seven (7)days. These records were not routinely provided in response to legal demand prior to June 2023. After June 2023, AT&T started providing these records pursuant to legal demand and began retaining timing advance records for thirteen (13) months.

In this case, the homicides occurred on November 13, 2022. Bryan Kohberger was identified as a suspect December 19, 2022. Search warrants for his AT&T records were executed on December 23, 2022. At this point, timing advance records were not available for Bryan Kohberger’s phone to cover the relevant time period - November 13, 2022. Despite Defendant’s repeated assertions, the fact of the matter is that AT&T did not provide Timing Advance Records to law enforcement for Bryan Kohberger’s phone.


So the state says that while they were able to obtain these Timing Advance Records for two of the victims and one other individual, by the time BK was identified, it was past the 7 day retention period and they were not able to obtain his Timing Advance Records. They attached certification of this from AT&T.

AT&T did not provide Timing Advance Records for phone number 509-592-8458. Timing Advance Records were only available if requested within seven (7) days of the specified time frame. Timing Advance Records were not included in AT&T records responsive to the referenced Search Warrant because more than seven (7) days elapsed between November 13, 2022, and the date of the Search Warrant December 23, 2022.

The state asked the court again to issue an order prohibiting the defense from making reference to absence of Timing Advance Records for BK.


So now we come to the defense filing an Affidavit in Support of Defendant's Objection to the State's MIL RE: AT&T Timing Advance Records. Sy Ray says that he has first hand knowledge that the ATT&T GLDC is one way to obtain the records and first-hand knowledge that there is another way to obtain them. He says that on December 23, 2022, the FBI sent a communication directly to ATT&T specifically detailing their request for BK's records and there is no reason to believe ATT&T would not respond to this request. He says in his expert opinion ATT&T Timing Advance data did exist for BK's phone in 2022 and points out investigators ability to obtain this data in 2022.

He doesn't address the 7 day time frame that existed in 2022 at all.

He also says, "The current motion is a deliberate misrepresentation to the court to further conceal false statements used to obtain probable cause against the defendant and conceal exculpatory evidence from discovery." So is this the exculpatory evidence the defense claims Sy Ray has? Timing Advance Records that he's never even seen (because the prosecution says they don't exist)?

He also says, "In my nearly thirty years of working with and for prosecutors all over the United States, I have never witnessed such a deliberate attempt by prosecutors to mislead the court on evidence in such plain sight."


Again--he never mentions the 7 day thing, even though this was signed after the prosecution submitted their motion with the ATT&T certification. I think this is going to be addressed at the 9 April hearing so it should be interesting.
JMO
BBM

The Director of compliance certification, which described the 7 day retention, was referring to the GLDC file in this case.
GLDC FILE NUMBER 3586353
Page 9

SR
page 4
The AT&T Timing Advance data was obtained by the FBI. using an internal source at AT&T. Mr. Boyd Jackson, who is not associated with the GLDC working group. GLDC was not used to obtain this data. A forensic examination of the AT&T Timing Advance records in the State's possession show Mr. Jackson's association with the reports.

Page 7
1743362708490.webp

JMO
 
If these were requested early in the investigation (?) maybe still just looking for any connection between the suspect and the victims?... or any other connections that might have been related.
Yes, these were some of the very earliest warrants. Makes sense. They were exploring many angles with no immediately apparent suspect. Jmo
 
At this point, I want to hear from the police what actually happened. There have been too many times in this case where the defense has made an overly broad statement but then upon further clarification it turns out that what she was implying was misleading.

Yes, there is photo/video taken shortly after the police arrived of the group of kids sitting on the street across from the house. In the three different images I've seen, police are either standing right there over the kids or are walking a few feet away to confer with another group of officers walking towards them. However, we don't know how long they sat there together and if they were separated shortly after that. I can't find any time stamps on those pieces of media, and there aren't very many of them.

DM gave an initial statement on site at 12:09, so shortly after police arrived. By 1:47 the same day, she was down at Moscow police station being interviewed by Mowery. So, we've got a bit less than 1 hr 40 min that is theorized they were together.

When 911 initially sent out emergency vehicles, they did not know there were 4 murders. They sent what was an appropriate amount of response for an unconscious roommate. It's hard to figure out exactly how many people were in the initial response from the 911 call, but definitely one ambulance and possibly 2 different officers. At least one officer was on site before the word "murder" was relayed back to dispatch. In the photo that shows the kids sitting there are only 2 police vehicles on the street--it does not show the driveway/parking area of the house where I assume an ambulance was, so I'm assuming this photo was taken fairly early on.

At that point, I suspect not separating them was a matter of logistics and best usage of resources--initially there weren't enough police vehicles on the scene to put 4-6 kids individually in them...and in some of those kids' cases (particularly DM and BF), I suspect it was determined it wouldn't be best practice to lock a hysterical witness in the back of police vehicle unsupervised. At the early stages there definitely weren't enough officers to sit with each kid in a separate vehicle. In some crimes, you can isolate a few of the witnesses in a separate part of the crime scene, but there's no way you could have gotten any of those kids to step foot back in the house to go to the spare 1st floor bedroom or BF's---not to mention the risk of destroying evidence since no one could be sure where the murderer had been in that house.

Once all the kids had been interviewed in the hours between 1:47 and say 4:30, then what? I don't believe the police have the right at that point to enforce that group of kids from staying away from each other. While they have witnesses not sit in court until they are done testifying, they don't have them be on no contact with each other in the years between the crime and the trial. DM & BF have no home to go to and no local parents. For the sake of protecting the details of the crime and investigation, you don't want to send those girls to go stay at their sorority houses or other friends at U of Idaho. Difficult to keep them in 4-6 separate rooms at the police station until parents get there, especially when this was an all hands on deck case for a relatively small police force. And even once the parents get there, the police are going to want the kids to stay local so they can be interviewed more.

We've seen this kind of overbroad statement from the defense before. I'd like to know a lot more detail.
When the first little bit of info came out that day, I remember thinking it was probably a mass OD. First photo that I saw, long scrubbed from the internet, showed young people standing outside the house, some wrapped in blankets. I imagine other students in the area were texting each other and arriving at the scene. Securing the scene of 4 murders, trying to figure out who witnessed what, who arrived after, who had actually been in the house that morning, it must have required a large police presence and may not have been locked down as quickly as one might hope.
 
Door Dash adds their own service and delivery charges to the order and customers often add tips. For example, while I was out of town last week, my husband purchased a Cobb salad with extra grilled chicken totaling about $23. Door Dash’s delivery charge on that order was $6.49, service charge was $3.88. There was a local paper bag fee of $.08, and tax of $3.74, and my husband added a $20 tip (experience has demonstrated that a minimum $15-20 tip is required if you want a DD driver to accept the order driving to our area which is some distance out). Total was over $60.

And this is why I urge my husband to just call and place the order directly to the restaurant and pick the order up himself on his way home from work!
During COVID I think I paid $27 for a latte from Starbucks when all was said and done.
 
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