4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #103

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  • #881
After digging around I found an old article that reminded me:

"Kaylee Goncalves’ injuries were significantly more brutal than her best friend Madison Mogen, sources told NewsNation on Sunday."

MM was extremely intoxicated and passed out. And in M00 she was on her stomach. She didn't put up a fight.

Whereas KG woke up, freaked out and tried to resist what was happening to her.

This must have angered him. First he wasn't expecting KG to be next to MM, so that rattles him. Second, he has to use much more force because she is actively fighting him. Third he has to reach across MM to get to KG. All of which would have been grueling.

 
  • #882
  • #883
"Steve Goncalves says, according to the coroner, the first victim was Mogen."

"Kristi Goncalves believes the assailant was not expecting to find the two best friends together in the same bed. " I do think that his plan went awry. I do think that, you know, he intended to kill one and killed four."

 
  • #884
I really think that BK living in one state, and the victims in another, was part of his plan for a long time. He thought that "putting more distance between them", although it was a bit of an illusion, would help him fly under the radar. Maybe it might have, but it didn't. Perhaps he got that idea from another killer?
 
  • #885
I bounce between KG & MM being the target. I believe KG’s wounds could either indicate that she was the target, or BK was frustrated that she was there. Stil; if MM was the target, it seems bizarre to not fixate on her but her friend, instead. You’d think after such meticulous planning he’d hang around for a bit? But I could defo be wrong on this. I believe so that Xana “interrupted” him in some capacity, meaning he had less time with his target than he’d planned, perhaps.

I think something that would sway me is whether KG posted that night of her whereabouts. When I first saw this case I thought, because KG was not technically supposed to be there, that the killer MUST have targeted her - it was the last night she’d be staying there. But I change my mind on that. I think if she or Mogen had posted on Instagram that they were together, then maybe KG was indeed the target: he saw them together and thought this was his last chance before KG moved away. Or, he was completely unaware KG was there, and the target was Mogen.

Also, do we know if he went into KG’s room first, or straight to MM’s? There’s a chance they were both targets, and this was intended to be a double murder. All Moo.
 
  • #886
?
After digging around I found an old article that reminded me:

"Kaylee Goncalves’ injuries were significantly more brutal than her best friend Madison Mogen, sources told NewsNation on Sunday."

MM was extremely intoxicated and passed out. And in M00 she was on her stomach. She didn't put up a fight.

Whereas KG woke up, freaked out and tried to resist what was happening to her.

This must have angered him. First he wasn't expecting KG to be next to MM, so that rattles him. Second, he has to use much more force because she is actively fighting him. Third he has to reach across MM to get to KG. All of which would have been grueling.

MOO reading this, kG caused him the unexpected exertion that pushed the sheath out of a coverall pocket.
 
  • #887
?

MOO reading this, kG caused him the unexpected exertion that pushed the sheath out of a coverall pocket.
Yay for Kaylee!
 
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  • #888
I don’t for a second think he isn’t guilty, or that the surviving room mates had anything to do with it. I can also (semi) understand their delay in realising something was seriously wrong. From what we know the 911 call was made for Xana. What really bugs me is why no one ran up to the third floor to tell Kayleigh and Maddie there was something going on with xana and they should get up. Maybe they did and we just haven’t heard about it yet, but surely then they would have been mentioned in the 911 call. It just does not sit right with me, if I couldn’t get them on the phone I would have went up there to get them up because something serious was going on.

This is my impression from the 911 call, combined with some information about HJ’s role, noted in recent court documents:

- At the time the 911 call was placed, BF and DM had only just been told by HJ and/or EA that there was an issue with Xana specifically. The call was placed immediately upon learning this information. We don’t know exactly what led HJ and EA to believe Xana was passed out but there is no indication DM and BF were aware of this prior to hearing it from HJ/EA. Additionally, there is no indication HJ/EA were concerned about the status of KG/MM.

- During the 911 call, EA reported that Xana had passed out and was not waking up; she attributed this to Xana drinking heavily the night before. DM and BF sounded more focused on something strange having happened in the house and the masked man sighting and did not report anything about any specific individual. DM even said she did not know when asked by the operator if someone was passed out.

- The 911 operator wanted to focus on what EA had reported about an unconscious person and continually redirected the conversation when DM attempted to raise what the operator presumably felt were less urgent or off-topic concerns (such as the man she’d seen in the house). We don’t know if DM might have mentioned growing concern about other roommates being unresponsive, given the opportunity. We do know DM sent a text to KG less than half an hour prior to the 911 call and the context indicated she was still thinking KG was sleeping.

- When the 911 operator asked for details that would require someone to go up to the main floor to assess Xana, DM can be heard having to convince someone (probably BF) to go upstairs together. I don’t think it would be unreasonable to guess this was due to them being frightened to go upstairs to the main floor, IMO. If they had been afraid to go up to the main level earlier that morning, they would not have had a path to the top level to consult KG/MM in person.

- We have not seen anything to suggest DM thought the unfamiliar masked man was ever on the top floor. She heard him in the vicinity of Xana’s room, heard Xana crying, and saw him walk toward the kitchen on the main floor. It might not have crossed her mind that KG/MM had also been at risk.

As others have mentioned, DM and BF were also the youngest roommates (both sophomores) and neither had lived there very long. I would guess they were used to deferring to the older roommates, especially the seniors, MM/KG. They repeatedly called and texted them to try to get ahold of them and didn’t know they could not wake up and take charge in this circumstance. HJ and EA ultimately took charge of the situation instead.

It’s possible additional information will be revealed at some point that calls some of the info above into question, but my opinion is based on what has been revealed thus far and a few associated inferences.

As always, MOO.
 
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  • #889
My opinion: the knife type is known from the wounds, upon doing the autopsies.

The sheath matches that knife. Wounds from that knife were inflicted in the third floor bedroom (and the same knife was used on the victims of the second floor).
That knife matches the dimensions of the sheath. The sheath was found under a victim's body, at the crime scene. It had BK's DNA on it. BK is associated with the sheath.

It appears there is an Amazon record of BK buying a knife AND a sheath that matches the sheath found but also matches the dimensions and edge-shape of the knife used for the murders.

With luck, the forensic analysis of the stab wounds revealed microscopic metallic fragments, now analyzed and consistent with both the Ka-Bar sheath and the knife it held and a Ka-Bar knife. Ka-Bar has a proprietary outer layer on its knives.

My opinion: this is going to be a difficult set of facts to overcome at trial. My opinion is that these facts are not difficult to understand and cannot be swept under any kind of rug.

Of course, the fact that a car quite similar to BK's in several ways drove by the house so many times (including the night of the murders and the morning after the murders) is another separate set of facts. And it's not as if the witness statements about the eyebrows, height and type of dress rule out BK.

IMO. Another odd thing is that BK refused to declare himself "not guilty." Very odd. Stood silent. The judge had to enter it for him, pro forma. Innocent people do not do that, IMO.
Wounds and injuries

Defense response to State's MIL
Additionally, the State has disclosed a forensic pathologist who will testify regarding manner of death, injuries, and specific wounds on the deceased. Mr. Kohberger has disclosed a forensic pathologist who has some differing opinions including injury and specific wounds on the deceased.

Standing silent:

The Fifth Amendment in the U.S. Constitution protects a defendant regardless of whether they are guilty or innocent. In fact, a defendant's refusal to testify or decision to stand silent can't be used against them during their trial.

It is important to note that Kohberger's decision to stand silent does not mean he is admitting guilt to the crimes. It simply means that the court is now responsible for entering a not guilty plea on his behalf.



Standing silent is not odd, uncommon, or unusual.
JMO

On standing silent
It is not uncommon
It is not unusual

JMO
 
  • #890
And "exoneration" is not the same as saying "I am innocent." I keep thinking about Casey Anthony. She WAS exonerated - but not innocent. IMO

Totally just opinion, but I am probably not alone in that one. I think it's possible that RA in the Delphi murders thought he would be exonerated too (and decompensated slowly in jail as he gradually realized that was not going to happen).

I've done quite a bit of work in jails, prisons and mental hospitals for the criminally insane. Giving up the idea that one is "going to be exonerated" can be the first step to getting a reduced sentence for accepting one's guilt - especially after the jury has weighed in.

He probably still believes it. He may go from "I will get off on several salient technicalities, as described by my lawyers and believed by myself" to "This isn't fair, I ought not to be sentenced to death."

At some level, he knew and still knows that he's made a game out of four young people's lives. A hideous game that somehow represents him, he has made "his mark" on the world and no one could stop him and now it's done. But he still wants to play the courtroom game.

IMO, of course.
D response to State ASD

Mr. Kohberger has all times asserted his innocence.
Page 4
 
  • #891
  • #892
Good, I've always wondered if and when BK was 'officially' diagnosed. A person can claim anything and even seem to fit the pattern, but I think it's imperative that there be an official diagnosis in order for it to be accepted by a jury as a true fact.

JMO
D response to State MIL

Mr. Kohberger “has met the criteria for this diagnosis since childhood and that it is not a ‘convenient’ diagnosis given his current legal situation and jeopardy.” (Defendant Exhibit D13-B, p. 3938).


Declaration of Dr Lewine

It is my understanding that Mr. Kohberger has received several diagnoses from appropriate and qualified doctors.

Autism Spectrum Disorder, level 1, without accompanying intellectual or language impairment.

For Bryan specifically, there is objective evidence of disrupted brain structure in several nodes of the social network. As outlined in detail in Exhibit 3, volumetric analyses of magnetic resonance imaging data for Bryan’s brain reveal several brain areas to demonstrate volume within the lowest 10th percentile, as compared to all sex and age-range (+/- 5 years) matched neurotypical control subjects drawn from a normative data base of over 10,000 subjects). Of particular relevance is evidence of reduced volume for the left and right fusiform gyri, the left and right orbital frontal area, the left temporal pole, and the right anterior cingulate area, all regions within the brain’s social network.

Imaging studies also demonstrate a clear neurobiology for OCD. With disruption of the cortico-striato-thalamo-cortical loop. Importantly, this loop includes the anterior cingulate and orbital frontal cortices, regions that overlap with the neurobiology of ASDs, and which were found to be disrupted on Bryan’s MRI



JMO
 
  • #893
I really think that BK living in one state, and the victims in another, was part of his plan for a long time. He thought that "putting more distance between them", although it was a bit of an illusion, would help him fly under the radar. Maybe it might have, but it didn't. Perhaps he got that idea from another killer?

I doubt this played any role. As someone who's lived on the state line of two different states most of my life (and in a total of two separate places I've lived -- so 4 states), in my experience, no one even thinks about the fact that they're going across the state line half the time. The community is the same, even if the states are different. MOO.
 
  • #894
I doubt this played any role. As someone who's lived on the state line of two different states most of my life (and in a total of two separate places I've lived -- so 4 states), in my experience, no one even thinks about the fact that they're going across the state line half the time. The community is the same, even if the states are different. MOO.
As a student of crime, he would know about the recurring role jurisdictional blindness often played in keeping crimes and identifications unsolved, sometimes for decades. But we're not living in the 20th century any more. If he counted on that, it was a grave error.

MOO
 
  • #895
As a student of crime, he would know about the recurring role jurisdictional blindness often played in keeping crimes and identifications unsolved, sometimes for decades. But we're not living in the 20th century any more. If he counted on that, it was a grave error.

MOO

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying. I doubt that even occurred to him because in the contemporary world, the community is the same and a search for a killer isn't impeded by state boundaries. Law enforcement works together to protect the community, not in silo'd jurisdictions serving only their state. A murder in Moscow wouldn't be considered just a murder in Moscow. They'd be looking for suspects in the greater Moscow-Pullman community. These two towns are pretty interlocked, like most state line cities. I can't imagine anyone, let alone a criminal justice major, not knowing this. MOO.
 
  • #896
Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying. I doubt that even occurred to him because in the contemporary world, the community is the same and a search for a killer isn't impeded by state boundaries. Law enforcement works together to protect the community, not in silo'd jurisdictions serving only their state. I can't imagine anyone, let alone a criminal justice major, not knowing this. MOO.
He presented his expertise to the police as being, amongst other things, 'cloud based forensics'.



Police said Kohberger applied for an internship with the Pullman police in the fall of 2022. In an essay he said he wanted to help "rural law enforcement agencies with how to better collect and analyze technological data in public safety operations," according to court documents.

And yet, he doesn't understand how his own digital footprint and movements could place him in the frame? And that they would track him across jurisdictional lines? Nonsense.

He just thought he was smarter than everyone, and that made him act recklessly. I think that was half the kick, the duper's delight. I imagine SWAT busting in was quite a rude shock to his ego.

MOO
 
  • #897
  • #898
I don't understand the phrase "Nothing is done for the DNA under fingernails." Of course something was done for the DNA under the fingernails, otherwise it wouldn't be in a motion. That the three DNA mix was found inconclusive. The motion states testing did provide a “likelihood ratio for Mr. Kohberger” from the analysis AND according to the defense, proved to be inconclusive. If they hadn't tested it at all, that would be another story.

If it was so important, why wouldn't the defense insist it be further tested?
Unless maybe it can't be or they know if doesn't matter or worse, they fear the likelihood ratio turns out to be wrong and it is BKs.
SBMFF

The D did do further testing.

MIL 5 Inconclusive data
More importantly, Mr. Kohberger has disclosed that through further independent laboratory testing, he is eliminated as a contributor to Item 13.1.

JMO
 
  • #899
As a student of crime, he would know about the recurring role jurisdictional blindness often played in keeping crimes and identifications unsolved, sometimes for decades. But we're not living in the 20th century any more. If he counted on that, it was a grave error.

MOO
Agree. His preparations seem... dated.
Perhaps its the literature he
was steeped in for his studies, which was not about cutting edge tech in crime solving but about the criminal mindset and their crimes.
 
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  • #900
Do they say irrelevant or do they say the explanation weighing the statistic probabilities can be misunderstood by the jury?
Not irrelevant.
The motion was to limit testimony.
JMO

MIL regarding inconclusive

The plain and clear understanding of the word “inconclusive” is that one cannot draw a conclusion. Here, the State apparently intends to proffer the undisclosed opinion that despite this testimony and the language of the report, that Miller has concluded that Mr. Kohberger cannot be excluded. The State has proffered no scientific basis for such an opinion. This testimony would lead to jury confusion, is misleading and would prejudice Mr. Kohberger, especially in light of the very late disclosure of this new opinion. As Miller testified there simply is not enough information to conclude either way if any of the individuals who fell in the inconclusive range, could be a contributor. There is a reason that the lab has an inconclusive range, which is that the data does not allow interpretation.

Mr. Kohberger’s motion to limit the testimony of Miller regarding Item Q13.1. should be granted. Allowing the State to proffer at this late date a brand new opinion that contradicts not only the written report but Miller’s grand jury testimony would violate Mr. Kohberger’s right to due process and right to competent counsel. The Court should limit this testimony to avoid prejudice to Mr. Kohberger.


jmo
 
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