4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #103

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Correction. I'm sorry I don't remember them off the top of my head right now. from the Jan 23, 2025 hearing. I was typing too fast earlier today. It's been a busy day.

All IMO.
I went back to refresh my memory about that 1/23 hearing concerning the Frank's petition.


[timestamp about 6hr20 min]

Seeing it again, AT looks even more frazzled than I remembered because she is making such flimsy points, but hitting them hard. It seems awkward and Judge H looks underwhelmed by her arguments.

The part you are referring to starts at about 6hr:26 minute---at about 6:30 she is addressing the DM testimony.

In an earlier post that I replied to, you stated:

".... I think that AT is pointing out that Investigators knew some or many of the things that DM was said wasn't true based on their own investigation of the Nov 13, 2022 and other people that LE has interviewed in the case and that DM's story of the events aren't credible and that LE shouldn't have based their investigation on her."

From what I heard, there was only one specific thing that AT pointed out about DM 'being wrong.'

At about 6:26 , AT accuses LE of being misleading in their wording of DM's interview statements. In the PCA it said that she 'thought' that she had heard a roommate come to the stairs and say something----

But AT then adamantly states that this was NOT what DM said in her interviews. What DM really said according to AT, was that she was sure she heard the victim on the stairs talking---And AT then states it as fact that it was impossible for that to have happened because the victim was killed in the bed and never came down the stairs,

so essentially it follows that the PCA should be null and void because DM is unreliable, etc... :rolleyes:


OK< that is silly, imo, for AT to make assumptions like that, as if we really know what happened on those stairs. Maybe one of the victims did make it to the stairway briefly? AT can't know for sure.

Or more likely, maybe it was the killer that she heard coming up or down the stairs. If so, it makes sense that DM would assume it was a roommate, not a serial killer. For AT to then claim that DM is unreliable because she made that statement seems kind of desperate on her part.

Survivors of brutal killing scenarios rarely get all the details and timeline correct. It doesn't mean that we should throw away everything that they say about the situation. IMO
 
Sorry--this will be long! In this latest batch of documents we see the Defense filed an affidavit from Sy Ray regarding these Timing Advance Records. It's signed 25 March, which is after the prosecution filed the certificate from AT&T--so they're going forward with this claim that the prosecution is hiding these records.

In the State's MIL RE: AT&T Timing Advance Records, the state asked the court to prohibit the defense from making references to the absence of Advance Timing Records for BK.

The State brings this motion based on defense counsels’ repeated references to the alleged existence of AT&T Timing Advance Records related to Defendant’s cell phone.

Any statements or inferences by defense counsel or their witnesses that there is additional evidence that could have been provided, or was not provided, is a mischaracterization of the evidence and should not be allowed.



The defense responds with their Objection to the State's MIL RE: AT&T Timing Advance Records. The defense says that while it's true that Timing Advance Records were not produced by AT&T Global Legal Demand Center until May 2023, the state is misleading the court by what it leaves out--Timing Advance Records were available through a different legal compliance department in November and December of 2022. And the proof of that is in the discovery--there were Timing Advance Records for two of the victims and one person of interest for those time periods.


The state responded with their Reply to Objection to State's MIL RE: ATT&T Timing Advance Records.

Regarding AT&T, before June 2023, AT&T retained timing advance records for seven (7)days. These records were not routinely provided in response to legal demand prior to June 2023. After June 2023, AT&T started providing these records pursuant to legal demand and began retaining timing advance records for thirteen (13) months.

In this case, the homicides occurred on November 13, 2022. Bryan Kohberger was identified as a suspect December 19, 2022. Search warrants for his AT&T records were executed on December 23, 2022. At this point, timing advance records were not available for Bryan Kohberger’s phone to cover the relevant time period - November 13, 2022. Despite Defendant’s repeated assertions, the fact of the matter is that AT&T did not provide Timing Advance Records to law enforcement for Bryan Kohberger’s phone.


So the state says that while they were able to obtain these Timing Advance Records for two of the victims and one other individual, by the time BK was identified, it was past the 7 day retention period and they were not able to obtain his Timing Advance Records. They attached certification of this from AT&T.

AT&T did not provide Timing Advance Records for phone number 509-592-8458. Timing Advance Records were only available if requested within seven (7) days of the specified time frame. Timing Advance Records were not included in AT&T records responsive to the referenced Search Warrant because more than seven (7) days elapsed between November 13, 2022, and the date of the Search Warrant December 23, 2022.

The state asked the court again to issue an order prohibiting the defense from making reference to absence of Timing Advance Records for BK.


So now we come to the defense filing an Affidavit in Support of Defendant's Objection to the State's MIL RE: AT&T Timing Advance Records. Sy Ray says that he has first hand knowledge that the ATT&T GLDC is one way to obtain the records and first-hand knowledge that there is another way to obtain them. He says that on December 23, 2022, the FBI sent a communication directly to ATT&T specifically detailing their request for BK's records and there is no reason to believe ATT&T would not respond to this request. He says in his expert opinion ATT&T Timing Advance data did exist for BK's phone in 2022 and points out investigators ability to obtain this data in 2022.

He doesn't address the 7 day time frame that existed in 2022 at all.

He also says, "The current motion is a deliberate misrepresentation to the court to further conceal false statements used to obtain probable cause against the defendant and conceal exculpatory evidence from discovery." So is this the exculpatory evidence the defense claims Sy Ray has? Timing Advance Records that he's never even seen (because the prosecution says they don't exist)?

He also says, "In my nearly thirty years of working with and for prosecutors all over the United States, I have never witnessed such a deliberate attempt by prosecutors to mislead the court on evidence in such plain sight."


Again--he never mentions the 7 day thing, even though this was signed after the prosecution submitted their motion with the ATT&T certification. I think this is going to be addressed at the 9 April hearing so it should be interesting.
JMO
 
Sorry--this will be long! In this latest batch of documents we see the Defense filed an affidavit from Sy Ray regarding these Timing Advance Records. It's signed 25 March, which is after the prosecution filed the certificate from AT&T--so they're going forward with this claim that the prosecution is hiding these records.

In the State's MIL RE: AT&T Timing Advance Records, the state asked the court to prohibit the defense from making references to the absence of Advance Timing Records for BK.

The State brings this motion based on defense counsels’ repeated references to the alleged existence of AT&T Timing Advance Records related to Defendant’s cell phone.

Any statements or inferences by defense counsel or their witnesses that there is additional evidence that could have been provided, or was not provided, is a mischaracterization of the evidence and should not be allowed.



The defense responds with their Objection to the State's MIL RE: AT&T Timing Advance Records. The defense says that while it's true that Timing Advance Records were not produced by AT&T Global Legal Demand Center until May 2023, the state is misleading the court by what it leaves out--Timing Advance Records were available through a different legal compliance department in November and December of 2022. And the proof of that is in the discovery--there were Timing Advance Records for two of the victims and one person of interest for those time periods.


The state responded with their Reply to Objection to State's MIL RE: ATT&T Timing Advance Records.

Regarding AT&T, before June 2023, AT&T retained timing advance records for seven (7)days. These records were not routinely provided in response to legal demand prior to June 2023. After June 2023, AT&T started providing these records pursuant to legal demand and began retaining timing advance records for thirteen (13) months.

In this case, the homicides occurred on November 13, 2022. Bryan Kohberger was identified as a suspect December 19, 2022. Search warrants for his AT&T records were executed on December 23, 2022. At this point, timing advance records were not available for Bryan Kohberger’s phone to cover the relevant time period - November 13, 2022. Despite Defendant’s repeated assertions, the fact of the matter is that AT&T did not provide Timing Advance Records to law enforcement for Bryan Kohberger’s phone.


So the state says that while they were able to obtain these Timing Advance Records for two of the victims and one other individual, by the time BK was identified, it was past the 7 day retention period and they were not able to obtain his Timing Advance Records. They attached certification of this from AT&T.

AT&T did not provide Timing Advance Records for phone number 509-592-8458. Timing Advance Records were only available if requested within seven (7) days of the specified time frame. Timing Advance Records were not included in AT&T records responsive to the referenced Search Warrant because more than seven (7) days elapsed between November 13, 2022, and the date of the Search Warrant December 23, 2022.

The state asked the court again to issue an order prohibiting the defense from making reference to absence of Timing Advance Records for BK.


So now we come to the defense filing an Affidavit in Support of Defendant's Objection to the State's MIL RE: AT&T Timing Advance Records. Sy Ray says that he has first hand knowledge that the ATT&T GLDC is one way to obtain the records and first-hand knowledge that there is another way to obtain them. He says that on December 23, 2022, the FBI sent a communication directly to ATT&T specifically detailing their request for BK's records and there is no reason to believe ATT&T would not respond to this request. He says in his expert opinion ATT&T Timing Advance data did exist for BK's phone in 2022 and points out investigators ability to obtain this data in 2022.

He doesn't address the 7 day time frame that existed in 2022 at all.

He also says, "The current motion is a deliberate misrepresentation to the court to further conceal false statements used to obtain probable cause against the defendant and conceal exculpatory evidence from discovery." So is this the exculpatory evidence the defense claims Sy Ray has? Timing Advance Records that he's never even seen (because the prosecution says they don't exist)?

He also says, "In my nearly thirty years of working with and for prosecutors all over the United States, I have never witnessed such a deliberate attempt by prosecutors to mislead the court on evidence in such plain sight."


Again--he never mentions the 7 day thing, even though this was signed after the prosecution submitted their motion with the ATT&T certification. I think this is going to be addressed at the 9 April hearing so it should be interesting.
JMO
Wow. Sy seems to be implying, or downright accusing, LE of having the BK Timing Advance Records, but withholding them because they are exculpatory?

That's a pretty bold accusation. 😳
 
As an autistic person, this argument is disgusting to me.

BK knows exactly what is expected of him by society, he just doesn't care.

He isn't a high needs autistic person who requires supervision and guidance to safely navigate the world because he's unaware of dangers, rules, and consequences. That's the kind of person this legal argument is designed to protect from excessive punishment.

Every word BK ever wrote in his university career shows he understands the laws of the land and right and wrong with absolute precision. And choosing to act with violence while in full understanding of the consequences and why it is unacceptable to do so is not a defence. It's premeditation and malice aforethought.

MOO
Thank you
 
It's why having the texts and phone records of those girls is so critical in helping the jury understand what happened. The girls may have even forgotten some of the details of their texting and SM actions. DM must have had a strong impression of what had just transpired when she heard the girls crying and saw BK in the hallway. It sounds like she went into a sort of denial shortly afterwards. She knew she was in danger, but didn't call 911. JMO, it was like being mentally frozen in shock.

The same type of reactions can occur to soldiers in combat, etc. It tends to be worse in a murder or mass shooting where people are attacked in a place they normally feel is safe - their home, school or workplace.

Very often, you also hear people who witness and survive a murder (or mass shooting) who remain frozen in fear, hiding for a long period of time because they are afraid the killer is still there, outside the room or house, etc. It's a very typical reaction.
I agree completely. Thanks for posting this.

Also I think it has been stated that DM had been drinking that night and possibly drinking a lot so being tipsy or more certainly played with her brain.
We don’t know if there was any drug use which may have also contributed in DM not trusting reality in the moment.
The texts though expressing her fear after seeing Kohberger and the fact she ran downstairs to lock herself in her roommate’s room show the reality of what DM was in denial of.
After the frozen shock she has certainly suffered from PTSD. The horror of it all just keeps replaying in your brain and it will for a long time- at least until Kohberger is sentenced after the trial.

I hope that she’s forgiven herself for not calling 911 immediately. There was no saving any of the four by the time she saw Kohberger walk past her room. I’m sure the families of the victims hold no animosity towards her and are sincerely grateful for her testimony.

All IMHO
 
I agree that the state has a very strong case, but we all know from cases such as Casey Anthony and OJ Simpson that there really is no sure slam-dunk case. The chances of the state not getting a guilty plea may be miniscule, but they do exist. Prosecuting BK has already cost Latah County and the state of Idaho millions, and the bill increases daily. Time and money. A plea deal would save family and friends/roommates of the 4 victims the pain of hearing and having to relive every gory detail of a 3-month trial. Finally, Bill Thompson has been Latah County DA for 32 years. I think his resume is probably padded as much as it will ever need to be.

I don't really believe that the state will offer a plea deal, but there do seem to be valid reasons to do so, which is why I was interested in hearing what others here feel. JMO
All great points.
In answer to your inquiry:
I don’t think there will be a plea deal entertained or accepted because I think at least one set of parents is firmly intent on seeing this through to the death penalty.
I think those are the parents that have been the most vocal from the start and there is no way they would accept less than the death penalty for Kohberger.
I don’t know about the other three sets of parents and stepparents (where applicable) being intent on seeing this through vs preferring a plea deal.
I do think that the DA very much considers what the victim’s parents want.
If the victim’s parents are advocating strongly for a death penalty conviction there will not be any discussion of a plea deal. Period.
I would not be surprised in the least if Kohberger’s team has asked for a deal. His parents (as practicing Catholics) may be against the death penalty and certainly would prefer him to receive a life sentence with no chance of parole.
All IMHO
 
I agree completely. Thanks for posting this.

Also I think it has been stated that DM had been drinking that night and possibly drinking a lot so being tipsy or more certainly played with her brain.
We don’t know if there was any drug use which may have also contributed in DM not trusting reality in the moment.
The texts though expressing her fear after seeing Kohberger and the fact she ran downstairs to lock herself in her roommate’s room show the reality of what DM was in denial of.
After the frozen shock she has certainly suffered from PTSD. The horror of it all just keeps replaying in your brain and it will for a long time- at least until Kohberger is sentenced after the trial.

I hope that she’s forgiven herself for not calling 911 immediately. There was no saving any of the four by the time she saw Kohberger walk past her room. I’m sure the families of the victims hold no animosity towards her and are sincerely grateful for her testimony.

All IMHO
I've often thought about this. I'm sure she has went through an upheaval of remorse. But, on the other hand if she does she need to cut herself some slack.

Who actually, in a college house, where there is constant coming and going, would think friends are brutally murdered and she has to call 911?

When the girls are told by their friend to "get out get out!" that must have been a pivotal horror moment. 😔
 
When the girls are told by their friend to "get out get out!" that must have been a pivotal horror moment. 😔
My image of the scene was them finding X and not comprehending reality/ calling 911.
I think E may have fallen or been pushed between the bed and outside wall of the house so not clearly visible at the front of X’s room as the group was trying to figure out what could have happened to X.
I have always thought the “get out, get out” happened after someone went upstairs and saw M & K on the bed.
It could also have been someone seeing E after walking through X’s room.

I suppose all this will come out clearly at trial as everyone present in the house during the 911 call will most certainly be called to the witness stand.

IMHO
 
I've often thought about this. I'm sure she has went through an upheaval of remorse. But, on the other hand if she does she need to cut herself some slack.

Who actually, in a college house, where there is constant coming and going, would think friends are brutally murdered and she has to call 911?

When the girls are told by their friend to "get out get out!" that must have been a pivotal horror moment. 😔
Exactly. It should have been an unpleasant college night memory of some drunk and tripping old friend of somebody who used to live there weirdly and scarily running around in a balaclava.
Being over quickly probably led to some self doubt on how bad it really was.
DMs physical description stands, made immediatley after the crime.
 
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It's why having the texts and phone records of those girls is so critical in helping the jury understand what happened. The girls may have even forgotten some of the details of their texting and SM actions. DM must have had a strong impression of what had just transpired when she heard the girls crying and saw BK in the hallway. It sounds like she went into a sort of denial shortly afterwards. She knew she was in danger, but didn't call 911. JMO, it was like being mentally frozen in shock.

The same type of reactions can occur to soldiers in combat, etc. It tends to be worse in a murder or mass shooting where people are attacked in a place they normally feel is safe - their home, school or workplace.

Very often, you also hear people who witness and survive a murder (or mass shooting) who remain frozen in fear, hiding for a long period of time because they are afraid the killer is still there, outside the room or house, etc. It's a very typical reaction.
YES. Fright or Flight. Looks like she got stuck in fright.

It kind of reminds me of kidnapping victims, who when questioned by a police officer trying to help them, may deny they are a hostage. Like the young girl taken from her bedroom by the crazy cult homeless guy and his wife? Can't believe I forgot her name...

But the police recognised the kidnapper and then turned to her, asking if she was the kidnapped teen and she denied it over and over. Hr mind was frozen in fear mode I guess. She said later that she was still so afraid of him, even though he was in handcuffs and being arrested, she kept thinking 'what if they let him go and he hears me telling on him?

It has made me so curious, about why neither of the survivors just walked upstairs to knock on Xana's door...but I guess they were still in a frozen kind of fugue state?
 
YES. Fright or Flight. Looks like she got stuck in fright.

It kind of reminds me of kidnapping victims, who when questioned by a police officer trying to help them, may deny they are a hostage. Like the young girl taken from her bedroom by the crazy cult homeless guy and his wife? Can't believe I forgot her name...

But the police recognised the kidnapper and then turned to her, asking if she was the kidnapped teen and she denied it over and over. Hr mind was frozen in fear mode I guess. She said later that she was still so afraid of him, even though he was in handcuffs and being arrested, she kept thinking 'what if they let him go and he hears me telling on him?

It has made me so curious, about why neither of the survivors just walked upstairs to knock on Xana's door...but I guess they were still in a frozen kind of fugue state?
Elizabeth Smart?
 
Not to me. Here is the drawing next to an under armour balaclava. I don’t know what style BK purchased but some of the, even have seams running down the sides of the front just like the picture.View attachment 574630
I agree, it looks more like a balaclava than a hoodie plus mask combo. The drawn picture shows a tight fitting, form fitting hood, unlike a basic hoodie which is very rounded and full. IMO
 
On December 9th 2022, a Motion was granted to seal "sensitive" information related to DoorDash such as:

The Search Warrant, related documents, any items seized.

However, this Motion was only granted for 3 months, from 12 - 9 - 2022 until 3 - 8 - 2023. So on March 7th 2023 - one day before this Motion was due to expire - a new Motion was granted to keep DoorDash information sealed.

The affidavit in support of search warrant and the amended affidavit in support of search warrant WILL BE SEALED.

The search warrant, amended search warrant and receipt and inventory (seized items) WILL BE REDACTED.
This Motion will remain indefinitely.

WHY?

Because the documents contain highly intimate facts or statements which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person.

03/07/2023 Order to Seal and Redact (Door Dash)
I'm thinking that maybe the DD driver happened to see the Elantra or a figure in black walking? If so, they would not want anyone to release their identity. IMO
 
The new documents from the other day (States exhibit S-9 I think). Alot of it is redacted but what I can see is:
Delivery DD date and time- 11/13/2022 @3:59am
Delivery ID ?
Total of the order- $22.35
Addresss of delivery- 1122 King Road.
Looks like longitude and latitude points of the delivery.
**Jack in the Box

Did I read that right?
If it is right, I can see $22.35 for one person. I bet there are different charges added.
 
He doesn't address the 7 day time frame that existed in 2022 at all.

Good summary.

Few people doubt the existence of a partner program that allows the FBI to obtain Timing Advance records faster. The problem is, Sy Ray's affidavit lacks evidence that the same 7 day retention period is arbitrary and does not apply. Arguing that the FBI received TA data for two of the victims, an early Person of Interest, and 3,800 of devices spanning a 2-hour period, establishes nothing if that data was obtained promptly within time.

It will be a real clanger if in 2022 the records existed for longer but LE failed to obtain them. It will allow the defense to insinuate they were received yet quickly discarded because the information was exculpatory to Kohberger. Pretty much what Sy Ray is doing now.

The response from the state should be to adduce testimony by individuals familiar the partner program to show the records were never accessed; or in the defendant's case, have the same people testify they were. Like the unknown DNA, I suspect the defense would sooner leave the question hanging than discover the boring truth and be disappointed. The spectre of corruption is a powerful weapon.
 
Defense did not object to the demolition of 1122 KIng Rd house, but now their expert has all kinds of issues with a model replica the state wants to use, because, well, because among other things, it isn't going to have furniture, and also shows associated topography, and it is going to take him a while to analyze all the data, (apparently 4 months is not enough time) and he is going to have to plan a day trip to go look at it, when it is created, and... from the filing today...

9. ... I have been informed that the model will not have any furniture, original materials or other objects that take up space in the normal layout of the residence. The absence of these features can influence the appearance of spatial relationships as they actually existed and were captured in original photos and video...

10. Finally, on March 14, 2025, I was provided with the data from which the model will be built. This data includes over 100 individual 3D scans that have been stitched together and include not only the residence, but the topography of the surrounding landscape. Assessing this data will take considerable time and then examining the finished product and verifying scale, dimension and completeness will take additional time on top of that...

11. Once the download has been completed the analysis will take approximately one or two days to assess the scan data. After my analysis of the scan data is complete, I will need to arrange a viewing of the exhibit and a description as to how the scan data was translated into the actual physical exhibit needs to be provided.

12. Traveling to examine the model created and documenting what may be needed to further assess it are things that are not built into my schedule at this time...

Methinks the defense doth protest too much. JMO

They should ask former prosecutor Kelly Siegler of Prosecuting Evil and Cold Justice fame how it's done to recreate a crime scene. She has tons of experience and bringing it into the courtroom.
 
Rereading a filing and saw a part that just made me go "grrr" at the defense.


re: DM's memory accuracy/validity:

"In this case, not only was there an 8 hour delay in reporting, prior to the first law enforcement interview, D.M. was allowed to mingle with B.F. and many other friends. Law enforcement did not separate all of the friends who came to 1122 King Road prior to interviews and no warning was given to not discuss the facts and no effort was made to limit such a discussion. Many of the friends who were at 1122 King Road when police arrived also stayed in the same hotel room the night of November 13, 2022. There was also extensive media coverage. Post event misinformation must be considered as a factor on the accuracy of D.M.’s memory retention."

So, here's when DM was interviewed:

DM literally gave a statement at 12:09 to Officer Nunes after he arrived at the scene where she proceeded to describe the man she saw. At 1:47 she was interviewed by Detective Mowery and provided similar details to what she said at 12:09.

Four days later she was interviewed by ISP and MPD. Similar description and from what I can tell the first mention of noticing the eyebrows (she had mentioned before only being able to see the man's eye area). "And it was, like, they had a ski mask that was covering their forehead, and their chin, and mouth. But I could see the – I – all I remember was seeing their eyebrows. And I don’t – I don’t remember what their eyes looked like, but I remember their eyebrows. I don’t remember the color the eyebrows were. I just remember, like, bushy eyebrows." She was interviewed again on Dec 1.

How long would the defense expect these kids to remain isolated and discuss nothing with anyone else? HJ, EA, and BF wouldn't have contaminated her recall of the man because they never saw him. DM and BF had to go somewhere that evening because their families weren't local and and their home was now a crime scene. Who knows how long it took any of the four kids' families to arrive to be with the kids.

As for "many of the friends who were at the house when police arrived spent the night in the same hotel"---by all accounts and from the photo that showed the kids sitting on the street near the garbage dumpster, it was just HJ, EA, BF, DM and at one point Ethan's brother and sister were notified and joined them. One of the pics by the dumpster appears to show Murphy flopped at the groups' feet. HJ & EA were dating, Hunter had just seen something completely horrific, and all 4 of those kids had just experienced the terror of fearing something was wrong with their friends and then finding out they had all been murdered. Those kids are literally the only people who they could be with, esp if you don't want details getting out to the wider school community.
 
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Trying to figure this out because I obviously don't have an Amazon account that differentiates who bought what unless it is going to a separate address or using a different card. You say "we know it couldn't have been BKs account". Do we know that? For sure?

Then you mention knowledge of BKs Amazon custom name, email and phone number that places the order. Is there an Amazon type of account that has these separately for a family for purchases on the same account? Mine doesn't, but it's older than dirt. My D has a user account on my account because we were in the same house, but it's only associated with Prime video, music, etc. Not with the purchasing account.

Is there such a thing as a family account with separate logins for the same account? TIA
Yes, my daughter lives in another state and often purchases things on my husband's account. He gets notified when she does.
 
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