4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #104

[DizzyB]

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/032425-Defendants-Reply-States-Resp-Defs-Motion-Strike-Death-Penalty-RE-Autism-Spectrum-Disorder.pdf

from the defense:

" Very early in his education he was treated as a child with special needs, evaluated psychologically, and provided with instructional support. He was observed as “rocking” in the classroom, inattentive, and he had poor fine motor skills. He received reading support, speech therapy, reminders to stay on tasks, more time for homework, and organizational support. "

Those accommodations could fall under either a 504 plan or an IEP.

Other than the rocking, I raised a kid with all of those special needs. Classified with an IEP. I’m sure many of us are, have family, or know someone who checks all of those boxes. How can a defense attorney argue the point of how he is viewed in the courtroom (that’s a basic jury instruction!), or that he is somehow ineligible for the death penalty? I hated the way BK was depicted yesterday, as if somehow he isn’t as culpable due to a misdiagnosis.

 

[NCWatcher]

Yes and in understanding the charges one would understand murder is wrong., it's quite a simple concept.

But the time frame differs. Competency is concerned with functioning at the time of the trial, not at the time of the crime. Insanity is an issue at the time of the crime. That's a pretty simple concept too but is critically important.

Further, understanding that the act of murder is wrong doesn't mean much in terms of insanity. For instance, Andrea Yates drowned her 5 children and was found not guilty by reason of insanity during her 2nd trial in 2006. She was suffering from extreme postpartum psychotic depression & believed by killing her children she was saving their souls and sending them to heaven as innocents. She felt their souls would be eternally damaged by living with her as a mother because she believed she was an evil terrible person. I suspect she would have said murder is wrong but didn't consider what she did as murder. On the other hand, someone with fairly severe dementia may also say he knows murder is wrong but appears to have forgotten he is alleged to have murdered his wife as he keeps asking where she is. Clearly he can't aid in his own defense nor does he understand the charges against him.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But neither competency nor insanity is evaluated by the judge asking the defendant to answer yes or no to a question like do you know Act X (whatever the charge is) is a crime and is wrong?

MOO

 

[katydid23]

Let me guess.

AT's expert met with BK for 10 minutes of which he tried to manipulate 11 --

Then diagnosed him retroactively based on anecdotal information from his childhood (AT claims he was misdiagnosed as a child -- apparently "should have been" diagnosed with ASD (which wasn't even a label then) but even so, I'm curious to know if WAS diagnosed as a child or later maybe-- as suggested upthread -- oppositional defiance disorder or any number of personality disorders.

IMO AT does NOT want the State to test BK and has shielded her expert from any real assessment of BK (so he doesn't "pass" which would destroy her strategy) and leaves her and the expert speaking about generalities of ASD, where by definition there's a whole spectrum of behaviors, functionabilities, etc.

JMO

I agree that AT does not want him formally tested. I think she knows that even if he is found to be somewhere on the spectrum, there might be other diagnoses within a cluster. Some that could indicate a tendency towards this kind of violent behaviour perhaps?

 

[QB2022]

I am.struggling to understand how they can state so specifically about him having autism if they haven't tested him. Surely that is lying?

 

[katydid23]

I gather from watching the conclusion of the hearing yesterday that they got through all the MILs in the one day. So the second day put aside hasn't proved necessary.

Hippler was pretty efficient. He organised the MILs into specific groupings based on their content it seemed to me, and regardless of whether a defense or state motion. They went through each group of related motions systematically. As there was no need for testimony of witnesses ( defense had Sy Ray and a couple of others available in the virtual wings) one full day was good for the lot.

I think it is significant and revealing, that Sy Ray did not actually testify. He had the perfect opportunity to do so when Judge H asked AT "what evidence do you have of the TA records?"

AT could have easily said we have that evidence and are prepared right now to offer it to the court. Easy Peasy. But that never happened. Makes me think Sy Ray doesn't have any evidence behind his serious accusations.

Hippler ruled some from the bench but others he took under advisement. I think we can expect quite a few orders with extended memos of judicial reasoning for at least five of the MILs, if not more over the next week or two. Can't recall how many exactly were taken under advisement. Jmo

A few times he said ' I'll take that under advisement, but he had made previous comments that showed he was not convinced, so it may not go the D's way. IMO

 

[Baby baby Jane]

I agree that AT does not want him formally tested. I think she knows that even if he is found to be somewhere on the spectrum, there might be other diagnoses within a cluster. Some that could indicate a tendency towards this kind of violent behaviour perhaps?

Aldo IMO … I think AT avoiding something like his potential for violent behavior was possibly suspected/known … and yes, a thorough evaluation would be a problem because AT just doesn’t know how BK would present for evaluation. Would he mask, deceive, make himself look appear “insane” certain he is tricky client

 

[Tragg]

I'm struggling to find how AT's speculation about her client's psychology comes into evidence.

Here's the Idaho definition of Murder in the First Degree:

18-4003 (a) All murder which is perpetrated by means of ...lying in wait, ... or which is perpetrated by any kind of willful, deliberate and premeditated killing is murder of the first degree.
...

(d) Any murder committed in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, ... burglary ...or mayhem, ... is murder of the first degree.

How is anything AT has suggested relevant to the elements of the offense as described?

 

[katydid23]

But the time frame differs. Competency is concerned with functioning at the time of the trial, not at the time of the crime. Insanity is an issue at the time of the crime. That's a pretty simple concept too but is critically important.

Further, understanding that the act of murder is wrong doesn't mean much in terms of insanity. For instance, Andrea Yates drowned her 5 children and was found not guilty by reason of insanity during her 2nd trial in 2006. She was suffering from extreme postpartum psychotic depression & believed by killing her children she was saving their souls and sending them to heaven as innocents. She felt their souls would be eternally damaged by living with her as a mother because she believed she was an evil terrible person. I suspect she would have said murder is wrong but didn't consider what she did as murder. On the other hand, someone with fairly severe dementia may also say he knows murder is wrong but appears to have forgotten he is alleged to have murdered his wife as he keeps asking where she is. Clearly he can't aid in his own defense nor does he understand the charges against him.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But neither competency nor insanity is evaluated by the judge asking the defendant to answer yes or no to a question like do you know Act X (whatever the charge is) is a crime and is wrong?

MOO

I don't see much similarity between Andrea Yates situation and Bryan Kohbergers. He did not have any physical condition like postpartum psychosis at the time of the murders.

And I don't think the vague description of him as a child having problems tying his shoes, or his social awkwardness can explain away a quadruple murder. IMO

 

[NCWatcher]

I don't see much similarity between Andrea Yates situation and Bryan Kohbergers. He did not have any physical condition like postpartum psychosis at the time of the murders.

And I don't think the vague description of him as a child having problems tying his shoes, or his social awkwardness can explain away a quadruple murder. IMO

I wasn't saying BK had postpartum psychosis nor that he was like Yates. I was using her as an example (well known to most many people) of why asking the defendant if she knows murder is wrong doesn't actually address insanity or competency. (I don't think BK has severe dementia either.) And I certainly wasn't arguing problems with tying shoes as a child explains murder as an adult.

The context was relevant to BK given the current issues and I thought quite relevant to the post I replied to.
MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I agree that AT does not want him formally tested. I think she knows that even if he is found to be somewhere on the spectrum, there might be other diagnoses within a cluster. Some that could indicate a tendency towards this kind of violent behaviour perhaps?

Even if he were a classic case of autistic traits, plus coming up with severe OCD and all sorts of co-morbidity, he's still high functioning and intelligent. At best, these things could go some way to explain why he became fixated on perpetrating a crime but they don't offer any excuse in law or diminish his responsibility or culpability. Perhaps it would assist mount an argument against DP?

Also if he were tested, due to previous criminal incidents and also drug use, it's possible he'd come up on a Cluster B PD leaning towards Narcissistic or Antisocial and that wouldn't help his case against DP at all, IMO.

Regardless nothing except suffering from severe psychosis would even begin to get him off this crime, if guilty of the actions, so I don't understand why any of it's even being mentioned as they're not suggesting he has a psychotic illness and severe mental health problem that means he doesn't have agency over himself. So what's the point of it all? JMO MOO

 

[katydid23]

Even if he were a classic case of autistic traits, plus coming up with severe OCD and all sorts of co-morbidity, he's still high functioning and intelligent. At best, these things could go some way to explain why he became fixated on perpetrating a crime but they don't offer any excuse in law or diminish his responsibility or culpability. Perhaps it would assist mount an argument against DP?

Also if he were tested, due to previous criminal incidents and also drug use, it's possible he'd come up on a Cluster B PD leaning towards Narcissistic or Antisocial and that wouldn't help his case against DP at all, IMO.

Regardless nothing except suffering from severe psychosis would even begin to get him off this crime, if guilty of the actions, so I don't understand why any of it's even being mentioned as they're not suggesting he has a psychotic illness and severe mental health problem that means he doesn't have agency over himself. So what's the point of it all? JMO MOO

Exactly, it would take a severe diagnosis to get him a not guilty verdict, imo.

Here is a recent example of an autistic man, committing mass murder, and trying to use autism as a legal excuse. It didnt work:

Toronto Van Attacker Found Guilty in City’s Worst Mass Killing (Published 2021)

The defendant was convicted of murder and attempted murder for killing 10 people and injuring 16 when he mounted the curb of a busy sidewalk in a van in 2018.

www.nytimes.com

TORONTO — The man who used his rental van as a weapon on a busy Toronto sidewalk in 2018, killing 10 people and badly injuring 16 in the city’s worst mass killing, was found guilty of murder and attempted murder by an Ontario judge on Wednesday.

Rejecting the novel argument that his autism spectrum disorder rendered him not criminally responsible, Justice Anne Molloy of the Ontario Superior Court ruled that the defendant, Alek Minassian, understood clearly what he was doing, despite the conclusion of some experts that he was incapable of feeling empathy because of his neurodevelopmental disorder.

“This was the exercise of free will by a rational brain, capable of choosing between right and wrong,” said Justice Molloy, who throughout her verdict refused to identify the defendant by name, instead calling him “John Doe,” as she did not want indulge the fame he desired.

“It does not matter that he does not have remorse, nor empathize with the victims,” the judge said.

 

[mickey2942]

Nice. So now we have attorneys who have decided they are "neuro psychologists" who can diagnose syndromes in the DSM-V. LOL.

Does this mean that Social Workers, Mental Health Counselors and Psychologists can practice law without going to law school?! Just asking.

 

[MassGuy]

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/040725_States_Notice_of_Filing_Suppl_Affidavit_in_Support_of_Response_to_MIL_5_RE_Inconclusive_Data.pdf

 

[Ghostwheel]

RSBM

" Very early in his education he was treated as a child with special needs, evaluated psychologically, and provided with instructional support. He was observed as “rocking” in the classroom, inattentive, and he had poor fine motor skills. He received reading support, speech therapy, reminders to stay on tasks, more time for homework, and organizational support. "

Those accommodations could fall under either a 504 plan or an IEP.

Many of these should fall under an IEP IF he had a diagnosis. But picking this apart:

Very early in his education he was treated as a child with special needs
Treated as? By what definition?

evaluated psychologically
And the results were? I see no test results.

, and provided with instructional support.
As are a multitude of children not defined with "Special Needs".

All of these below are buzzwords, not an official evaluation. Sounds like report card notes.

He was observed as “rocking” in the classroom
As do a multitude of children who are bored, tired of sitting and wanting recess and who are not defined with "Special Needs" . And yes, I know rocking vs rocking. I had plenty of teachers try to call my own behavior "rocking" when I just needed to go to the bathroom and was denied.

inattentive
As do a multitude of children who are bored, tired of sitting and wanting recess and who are not defined with "Special Needs" .

and he had poor fine motor skills.
Not ASD specific. More like Dyspraxia.

He received reading support,
As do a multitude of children with Dyslexia.

speech therapy,
As do a multitude of children with only speech problems.

reminders to stay on tasks
As do a multitude of children who are bored, tired of sitting and wanting recess and who are not defined with "Special Needs" .

more time for homework
As do a multitude of children with Dyslexia

and organizational support. "
As do a multitude of children just in general.

My classrooms growing up, and the ones I helped in with my kids growing up, did not have perfectly behaved, never moving children who were always on task, finished their homework on time every time, and could organize their desk or backpack more than shoving the papers in. The children who could do all that were the anomalies, not the average, until around 4th grade. The average kid was hit or miss on some things different days.

If BK had a 504 or IEP, then I'd say he might have had "Special Needs". But "Special Needs" is not ASD. If he was never diagnosed, then there is no grounds for telling the jury anything at all. EVER. I'd be spending some time and money on an official diagnosis, if they can get one.

 

[Sachi]

I can envision AT, at trial, trying to paint the house as THAT house. THAT house, with a reputation, the one that almost everybody had traipsed through and partied in. THAT house, that any number of people knew or knew of the occupants. THAT house, that someone may have been asked to leave if they became too disruptive. THAT house, that almost anyone could have developed a grudge against one of the girls who lived there. THAT house, that LE had been called to on more than one occasion. THAT house, that almost invited trouble...

Poor innocent BK, whose DNA just happened to end up on a knife sheath, in a bed, under a butchered victim, in a house with three other butchered victims, in THAT house. JMO

This

 

[SteveP]

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/040725_States_Notice_of_Filing_Suppl_Affidavit_in_Support_of_Response_to_MIL_5_RE_Inconclusive_Data.pdf

The state's DNA expert analysis of the DNA sample from MM concluded that there was indeed at least one unknown male contributor, among a mixture of at least four individuals, and excluding BK. It appears to my untrained eye that whoever the male DNA belongs to will never be known. and were she still alive to tell us, Maddie probably would have had no idea whose it was either, as it made up 1% of the sample. JMO

The following mixture proportions were calculated..

• Madison Mogen ~ 83% • Kaylee Goncalves ~ 12% • Unknown contributors ~ 5% a. Unknown male(s) DNA component at Amelogenin (X, Y): ~ 1% b. This result was consistent with the information gained from the DNA quantitation assay for Y-chromosome DNA as summarized in paragraph 101 above. Approximately 1% of the DNA in this sample is of male origin.

The state's expert concluded...

112) I agree with assessment from Cybergenetics regarding the number of contributors to Item 13.1. The DNA mixture obtained from Item 13.1 is consistent with a mixture of at least 4 individuals, at least one of whom is male. Madison Mogen and Kaylee Goncalves cannot be excluded as potential contributors to the mixture. 113) Based on the quantitative testing conducted by the ISP Laboratory, approximately 1% of the total DNA yield in Item 13.1 is male DNA. These results are further supported by the STR results at several loci. The male DNA component analyzed on consistent with approximately 3 to 4 cells.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/CR01-24-31665/2025/040725_States_Notice_of_Filing_Suppl_Affidavit_in_Support_of_Response_to_MIL_5_RE_Inconclusive_Data.pdf

 

[Kemug]

Aldo IMO … I think AT avoiding something like his potential for violent behavior was possibly suspected/known … and yes, a thorough evaluation would be a problem because AT just doesn’t know how BK would present for evaluation. Would he mask, deceive, make himself look appear “insane” certain he is tricky client

I can't remember - is there any indication of previous violent behaviour?

 

[iamshadow21]

I can't remember - is there any indication of previous violent behaviour?

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/idaho-suspect-bryan-kohberger-turned-aggressive-in-high-school-former-friend/news-story/f89658691c26174ea5bee397efd116ce

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Many of these should fall under an IEP IF he had a diagnosis. But picking this apart:

Very early in his education he was treated as a child with special needs
Treated as? By what definition?

evaluated psychologically
And the results were? I see no test results.

, and provided with instructional support.
As are a multitude of children not defined with "Special Needs".

All of these below are buzzwords, not an official evaluation. Sounds like report card notes.

He was observed as “rocking” in the classroom
As do a multitude of children who are bored, tired of sitting and wanting recess and who are not defined with "Special Needs" . And yes, I know rocking vs rocking. I had plenty of teachers try to call my own behavior "rocking" when I just needed to go to the bathroom and was denied.

inattentive
As do a multitude of children who are bored, tired of sitting and wanting recess and who are not defined with "Special Needs" .

and he had poor fine motor skills.
Not ASD specific. More like Dyspraxia.

He received reading support,
As do a multitude of children with Dyslexia.

speech therapy,
As do a multitude of children with only speech problems.

reminders to stay on tasks
As do a multitude of children who are bored, tired of sitting and wanting recess and who are not defined with "Special Needs" .

more time for homework
As do a multitude of children with Dyslexia

and organizational support. "
As do a multitude of children just in general.

My classrooms growing up, and the ones I helped in with my kids growing up, did not have perfectly behaved, never moving children who were always on task, finished their homework on time every time, and could organize their desk or backpack more than shoving the papers in. The children who could do all that were the anomalies, not the average, until around 4th grade. The average kid was hit or miss on some things different days.

If BK had a 504 or IEP, then I'd say he might have had "Special Needs". But "Special Needs" is not ASD. If he was never diagnosed, then there is no grounds for telling the jury anything at all. EVER. I'd be spending some time and money on an official diagnosis, if they can get one.

Very well stated and summarized @Ghostwheel ….. And all the information from the defense team thus far IMO seems to suggest they might not have an official diagnosis for the defendant / client? Even if one was to be now sought it is going on three years since the crimes. And would there be any relevance or applicability to the suspect at the time of the slayings? Maybe another complication is that there may be no way to predict how the client would fare if now being subjected to a diagnosis for a condition being considered? IANAL nor a psychiatrist or psychologist. MOO

 

[Megnut]

If AT really thinks BK has ASD, why wouldn't she track down a doctor who will say so? Not an supposition that maybe he would have been diagnosed as such as a gradeschooler, but an actual adult diagnosis so she can go hard at labeling it a mitigating disorder?

Because she can't. Or she would.

She's walking a tightrope.

JMO