4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #104

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  • #601

Awaiting JH's decision on this.


The information contained therein is easily verifiable - even with the most cursory internet search:


According to the above linked article, in 2019 AT&T had the capability to get tower data for the FBI CAST team for 7 years, not the 7 days claimed by the prosecution. AT&T's system was allegedly not changed until after 2023. JMO.
 
  • #602
17m video clip from last week's hearing


Go, Judge!
 
  • #603
  • #604
 
  • #605

Awaiting JH's decision on this.


The information contained therein is easily verifiable - even with the most cursory internet search:


According to the above linked article, in 2019 AT&T had the capability to get tower data for the FBI CAST team for 7 years, not the 7 days claimed by the prosecution. AT&T's system was allegedly not changed until after 2023. JMO.
Did the defense subpeona the records?
 
  • #606
OK, I guess it is confusing because it seemed like you were saying there were not tests:

'I am not trying to answer for @BeginnerSleuther but lots of mental disorder diagnoses do not require "tests." It would be nice if there were presence/absence tests for disorders (score above X indicates presence of the disorder, score below X indicates absence of the disorder) but either there aren't any such tests or if there are, they are unreliable. I can't think of a disorder where there is a test for it that is accepted as THE test for diagnosis.'

So reading that statement above made me think you are saying there were no tests that were available or reliable. IMO

Read it again. I've replaced your bolding for my own to underline what I believe @NCWatcher was saying.

"'I am not trying to answer for @BeginnerSleuther but lots of mental disorder diagnoses do not require "tests." It would be nice if there were presence/absence tests for disorders (score above X indicates presence of the disorder, score below X indicates absence of the disorder) but either there aren't any such tests or if there are, they are unreliable. I can't think of a disorder where there is a test for it that is accepted as THE test for diagnosis.'"

I believe the poster is correctly saying there aren't PRESENCE/ABSENCE tests. For example, if we suspect someone has high cholesterol (aka hyperlipidemia), we do a cholesterol panel. If their cholesterol is normal, then they don't have high cholesterol/hyperlipidemia. There is no such test for autism. If someone does an autism assessment and doesn't have a certain score, it doesn't rule out autism definitively. They need further evaluation. There is no test that magically says "yes, you're autistic" or "no you're not autistic." The diagnosis requires more than that. A neuropsychological evaluation is made up of a series of assessments/scales/evaluation and is perhaps the best way to diagnose ASD (though not necessary), but it isn't a "test."
 
  • #607
Did the defense subpeona the records?

Of course not (MOO)

It's the appearance of impropriety she's going for (ironic seeing as she's the one testifying to the judge, making accusations she can't support, "where's your evidence, Counsel?").

There are no cellphone records anywhere for BK for 11/13 from 2:54am until whatever time he turned his cellphone back on.

How could the State produce records for an OFF phone?

Nothing exculpatory here. In fact, it's incriminating. In that it was off.

And if, on November 16th, LE got a tower dump warrant that also comprised Pullman (and how? They didn't even know BK yet!), or had AT&T frozen those records (again, how would they have known to include Pullman????), BK's number (while his phone was still on) would have come back in the thousands of numbers and only showed someone driving mostly in Pullman, then south and west of Moscow. And if LE investigated that number (at that point, why would they have?), how does BK's actions at 2:47-2:54 provide exculpatory anything? It just proves he was driving around in the middle of the night (in an Elantra, with a phone that frequented the proximity of 1122 on 23 other occasions).

If the murders occurred at 3am, there's an argument. How could BK get to 1122 from Pullman in six minutes? But the murders didn't happen at 3. They happened at 4, a time for which BK has no alibi, particularly between 4:09 and 4:20, when his Elantra isn't captured on any cctv when before and after it was.

I suspect the State went back, more recently, and certainly right after they had a name, to obtain records, in order to answer (reply to a motion), but investigatively, the State doesn't need BK's whereabouts at 2:50am to prove he is guilty of the crimes with which he's charged. It might bolster their case but it's no kind of exclusion, like AT is carnival-barking it is.

Again, it's not because the State is withholding discovery that there's no ATR for BK's phone, it's that his phone was never in the tower dump because it was off all along, and it stayed off.

An ATR for 11/13 from 2:47-2:54, if one exists (and I don't see how it could), provides BK zero alibi.

BK could have been on his knees in a church at 2:50am. That's not going to help him for the gap in time at 4:10am, when it matters.

He doesn't have a prayer.

JMO
 
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  • #608

Awaiting JH's decision on this.


The information contained therein is easily verifiable - even with the most cursory internet search:


According to the above linked article, in 2019 AT&T had the capability to get tower data for the FBI CAST team for 7 years, not the 7 days claimed by the prosecution. AT&T's system was allegedly not changed until after 2023. JMO.

This doesn't say anything about timing advance records
 
  • #609
Did the defense subpeona the records?

As our stalwart @wendy44's notes from the Judge indicate, unless AT&T are somehow in on the conspiracy - there is nothing to subpoena - AT&T responded to a search warrant!
 
  • #610
This doesn't say anything about timing advance records
"AT&T uses a system known as Network Event Location System (NELOS) to estimate the location of mobile devices within their network. NELOS is a form of Timing Advance and AT&T is transitioning to a TDOA system of PCMD similar to T-Mobiles system."
 
  • #611

Awaiting JH's decision on this.


The information contained therein is easily verifiable - even with the most cursory internet search:


According to the above linked article, in 2019 AT&T had the capability to get tower data for the FBI CAST team for 7 years, not the 7 days claimed by the prosecution. AT&T's system was allegedly not changed until after 2023. JMO.
We already know how he's going to rule. He's going to allow the defense to question Ballance out of view of the jury, and that's going to be the end of it. Sy Ray and the defense absolutely embarrassed themselves here, and I wish the judge hadn't been so measured.
 
  • #612
I could be wrong, but my impression was that the state wasn't arguing that he doesn't have ASD, they were arguing that there's no evidence he has a developmental disorder/fine motor skill issue that would prevent him from being physically capable of committing the murders. I'll try to transcribe some of that portion of the hearing.

I can't find it now, but there was some discussion about BK being observed as being "manipulative". I think this was actually about manipulatives--he was able to manipulate or handle objects without dexterity issues. The state believes the ASD diagnosis is irrelevant and immaterial since the jury is not supposed to consider courtroom demeanor--their primary objection here is the idea that he's physically incapable of the murders.
JMO
 
  • #613
  • #614
"AT&T uses a system known as Network Event Location System (NELOS) to estimate the location of mobile devices within their network. NELOS is a form of Timing Advance and AT&T is transitioning to a TDOA system of PCMD similar to T-Mobiles system."

We know from the FBI's own Field Guide (2019) that ATT's proprietary system NELOS came with a bunch of warning markers due to its wide range of variability. ATT would not (or could not) verify the results and the FBI did not testify to its accuracy.

NELOScrop.webp
 
  • #615
Moo

Will AT be able to introduce or address the jury prior to the trial, using a non diagnosis of Autism with the professional opinion that he was misdiagnosed as a child (per Orr’s observations? )

If so,
Will she ask the jury NOT to consider or judge him based on his “way” in court , by the way he looks at people, stares, comports himself?
How does that work, shut down a vital sense and see things through a different lens offered by the lady over there?

“the duck you see before you is really NOT a duck, close your eyes,it is actually a tiny white bunny with neuropathic paws in a-duck suit is all.

Idk, hypothetically - if a quadruple murder suspect was staring for a prolonged period of time at a juror, it’s likely they would listen 1st to their inner voice.
 
  • #616
"AT&T uses a system known as Network Event Location System (NELOS) to estimate the location of mobile devices within their network. NELOS is a form of Timing Advance and AT&T is transitioning to a TDOA system of PCMD similar to T-Mobiles system."
Can NELOS estimate the location of a phone that has been turned off? Nope, because the phone has to be transmitting signals to towers in order to be tracked. The state claims to know for certain and apparently can prove that BK's phone was physically turned off on Nov 13, 2022, from 2:47am until 4:48am. Perhaps NELOS told them that as well as location of phone at time when turnd off, and location of phone when again turned on.. JMO
 
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  • #617
Anecdotal, but I know of a young adult who recently had an evaluation for ASD and the testing included an IQ test, oral vocabulary evaluation, a written evaluation, personality assessment and an interview. It sounded like the evaluator did not take into consideration the person’s education or how well the person performed in school. Education-wise, this person is an extremely high performer and has advanced education at an early age. It seems like ASD, maybe low level, is not evaluated in a vacuum.
 
  • #618
I think the courtroom conversation became somewhat confusing because the defense was talking about autism and courtroom demeanor as well as behaviors that can be attributed to his autism, but might be viewed by the jury in a negative way i.e. that he's trying to hide a crime. And the judge picked out one part of that, the speed at which crime occurred, and the conversation suddenly veered toward that.

In the State's Reply to Defendant's Response to State's MIL RE: Neuropsychological and Psychiatric Evidence, the state said (bolded by me):

Defendant argues he “has a developmental coordination disorder” that means it was “not possible for him” to commit these crimes because he lacked the necessary “speed and coordination.” (Mot. at 7-8.) But that is not what his neuropsychological evaluation found. The expert who conducted the evaluation, Dr. Orr, listed “Developmental Coordination Disorder” under the title “Diagnoses for which Bryan Met Criteria in the Past.” (Ex. D7-B, p.16 (emphasis added).) Dr. Orr clearly explains that “motor problems have not impacted his functioning significantly in many years.” Id. at 19 (emphasis added).1 To the extent Defendant currently has any motor impairment, even according to his own expert, it affects only his “fine motor dexterity and vulnerabilities in visual-motor functions.” Id. The examples she uses for “fine motor dexterity” include when he had “poor handwriting” and “trouble tying his shoes” in the past. Id.at 4. She asserts he continues to have difficulty with “manipulation of tools even as an adult” but only “per parent report.” Id. She also points to her observations during the examination that Defendant “moved his whole arm and repositioned his upper body slightly to manipulate the items effectively.” Id. at 7. No reasonable juror could infer from those observations and a diagnosis that applied to Defendant “in the [p]ast” that it was “not possible” for Defendant to commit the crimes with which he is charged.

Most tellingly, neither of Defendant’s experts drew that or any similar inference. Neither expert offers any opinion on whether any of his conditions made it more or less likely that he was physically capable of committing the crimes charged. Thus, the expert opinions themselves are inadmissible during the guilt phase because they are not relevant to guilt See I.R.E. 401;I.R.E. 402. And Defendant’s attempt to stretch his experts’ opinions beyond what they say is barred by Rule 403 as unfairly prejudicial, misleading to the jury, and a waste of time.



During the hearing, the defense starts at about 6:56:20 and at some point EM says:

"As for issues that relate to state of mind, it does depend on what the state offers. We agree with the state on that aspect. If they stay away from the issues regarding cleanliness, and a missing shower curtain, and speed in which the crime occurred, and wearing gloves with some sort of negative attribute that he is doing that to hide DNA as opposed to what's going on with his autism, it's our position that that opens up the door to the opinions that the experts have expressed. As it relates to--"

And the judge interrupts her here, to focus on that statement about speed in which the crime occurred and now the conversation has turned away from the autism diagnosis to what the state says has not been supported by the experts.

Judge: "I didn't understand--and the reference to speed at which the crime occurred."

EM: "Well, there's the state, there's a disclosure by the state of one of their detectives--"

Judge: "I understand the detective's statements and you have in the report a reference that he has a historic fine motor skill issue. And you have no expert testimony that he would have been incapable of doing this."

EM: "I don't know that we would seek to offer an opinion that took it that far into the jury province about no capability to do this, but in terms of his fine motor dexterity issues--"

Judge: "All that's disclosed is historic issue with some fine motor disabilities like not being great at tying his shoes."

EM: "Well, I disagree that that's all the experts said. The expert indicates he has problems with dyspraxia and went into great detail about the issues that what she saw with fine motor dexterity as it presents to this day. He did absolutely have those issues that are present child and there are still things that are present in him, you know to the extent that that's an issue, the best person to explain that to you is not me, but perhaps more of an offer for proof beyond this outside the presence of the jury, so what you would know, the testimony would be that we would offer on that issue. Or giving us direction to specifically go get information about that issue that we might try to elicit, but I don't want my representation to you as a non-expert as a lawyer making this argument. I'm not qualified to tell you what's going on with his exact dexterity issues. He has fine motor skill issues. He presents odd physically. And it is a different presentation with what he's got than someone who might be sitting in a courtroom perhaps with missing a hand for example. Another significant issue that's impacted by his Autism Spectrum Disorder is his decision and ability to testify..."

And she goes on with that and then the prosecution comes back around 7:09:50

BT: "In response to Your Honor's question about, or observation that there's no evidence from an expert here that the defendant is incapable of committing these crimes, the response from the defendant was well, yeah, that's right, which is exactly our concern because the defendant in his filings took what little was in the expert disclosures and stretched it out to this conclusion that the defendant is incapable of committing the crimes when the experts don't say that. I mean, they are essentially creating an opinion that doesn't exist. So, Your Honor, our request stands. Certainly the evidence that's being proffered about his demeanor's not relevant, it shouldn't be admitted, and if there's an issue that comes up about the defendant on the stand and his appearance there I think we can address that as it comes up. Likewise if the state opens the door to questions about the defendant's behaviors, which we are not intending to do, we can address the issue at that time. So we'd ask the court defer any kind of ruling on those hypothetical situations."

JMO
 
  • #619
You know what takes some fine motor dexterity? Ziplocking a baggie.

Just saying.
 
  • #620
You know what takes some fine motor dexterity? Ziplocking a baggie.

Just saying.
Or putting up and taking down a shower curtain. JMO.
 
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