4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90

[BeginnerSleuther]

There's been a lot of misreadings in this case that are split along generational divides.

I remember when some people were categorizing the late night drunken calls to the ex as suspicious. Yes, it is suspicious if cell phones weren't really a common thing when you were 18 - 22yrs old

Perhaps. But I also think it's important to acknowledge that differing opinions don't necessarily mean that people don't understand or that there's a generational gap. Two people could be the exact same age, with the exact same experiences, looking at the exact same facts and still have differing opinions.

JMO.

 

[Deleted member 718]

It could be smoke signals or carrier pigeons and I'd still wonder why several friends were contacted before LE.

That said, LE ruled out anyone who was there that morning and BK is sitting in jail charged with murder x 4.

 

[Valen2]

"communicative fabric of their lives" is an excellent way to put it. Thank you!

 

[Valen2]

IMO knowing what time the student texting started and who sent the first text would logically be worthwhile knowing. It could be important or it could be unimportant. For example: what would LE make of it if the texts began at 9am versus around noon? We don't know what time they began and there is no public information as to if this was investigated, so all I can suggest is that LE should definitely find out when the first message was sent and by whom if they have not already.

Given that they requested all those phone records and publicly cleared the roommates and all who were present that morning, it makes sense that LE already knows when those texts began. The FBI CAST office is involved. They didn't overlook text messages.

 

[Balthazar]

Given that they requested all those phone records and publicly cleared the roommates and all who were present that morning, it makes sense that LE already knows when those texts began. The FBI CAST office is involved. They didn't overlook text messages.

We don't know if the roommates sent the first texts or not. Allegedly one fainted and the other was hysterical and couldn't speak sensibly to the 911 operator so someone else had to take over the call. It is known that they were both taken to the hospital. If that story about their conditions at the time is true, I can't imagine either of them texting.

 

[Cool Cats]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

You asked about the "morning" comment during the vigil. I'm hopeful that they are paying close attention and may have crossed referenced that comment to the investigation but you could call them with your idea? Just a thought.

<modsnip: quoted post was snipped>

The lady never said morning it was the journalist. Very misleading all this morning stuff. I'm surprised regular posters would take a journalist word phrase over the Moscow Police Press Releases that clearly state the timeline.

 

[Valen2]

We don't know if the roommates sent the first texts or not. Allegedly one fainted and the other was hysterical and couldn't speak sensibly to the 911 operator so someone else had to take over the call. It is known that they were both taken to the hospital. If that story about their conditions at the time is true, I can't imagine either of them texting.

Who do you suspect was texting if not the people present when 911 was called? The police publicly cleared them all. It would have to be someone besides the roommates and besides the friends that were there that they called. The police know who they called based on their phone records. If needed, then they could follow the phone records of the people the friends called. They cleared them all, and the video has also confirmed that she did not say morning.

 

[SpiderFalcon]

I feel much the same as you, but Thompson's behavior regarding the DNA is making me completely and totally doubt the veracity of the DNA, especially in regards to the chain of custody. There should be no reason not to share the chain of custody document and complete documentation of the processing of the DNA and how the IGG was done with the defense. In fact, of all the evidence in this case, this DNA evidence, because it is based on verifiable scientific processes done in labs, in a controlled environment, should be the evidence the prosecution is the least concerned about sharing with the defense - unless the prosecutor knows something is wrong with it. To me, it looks like Thompson is absolutely desperate to hide this DNA information from the defense and is having to be dragged kicking and screaming through the court process in order to surrender it to the defense. He even claimed the documentation of the IGG process doesn't exist in court and in front of a judge and then it has turned out that was not true. Which begs the question why??? Why is he behaving like this???

We don't have access to any of the reports or discovery, so we can only go on what is in the media so far.

We see Howard Blum wrote that they only found 20 skin cells or less when at least 80 are usually needed to get an STR. We also know some cells will be destroyed during the testing - 20% to 80% of the cells are destroyed.

"Currently, the optimum DNA input to the PCR for STR profiling is around 500 pg [[1], [2], [3]], which equates to approximately 80 diploid cells (∼6 pg/cell [4]). If the potential of DNA loss through workflow processing is not considered, any item from which 80 cells are collected should generate a full DNA profile. Due to inefficient collection of the DNA template present by swabbing or tapelifting techniques and the loss of DNA through standard extraction methods, reported to range between 20 %–80 % [5,6], far more than 80 diploid cells would need to be collected to ensure a full profile downstream given the optimum template stated [[1], [2], [3]]."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497320302258#:~:text=Currently%2C%20the%20optimum%20DNA%20input,generate%20a%20full%20DNA%20profile.

Even if the newest STR process was used that can be done on 5 cells, if the sample was 20 cells and then 80% of those cells were destroyed that leaves only 2 cells.

Was Blum right about the 20 cells or less? That begs the question, was the DNA STR profile from the Idaho crime lab partial? Is it possible that the Texas lab couldn't run the IGG because the sample was partial so the FBI lab took over? Could this be why the Texas lab's datafile is much smaller than that of the FBI? And even more concerning, is this why the prosecutor has been fighting against the defense seeing the DNA evidence?

We don't know the answers to any of the above questions, but they are reasonable to ask given that the prosecutor has been trying to do all he can to keep the DNA evidence and DNA evidence chain of custody from the defense.

All JMO, IMOO.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/061623+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf

 

[SpiderFalcon]

I feel much the same as you, but Thompson's behavior regarding the DNA is making me completely and totally doubt the veracity of the DNA, especially in regards to the chain of custody. There should be no reason not to share the chain of custody document and complete documentation of the processing of the DNA and how the IGG was done with the defense. In fact, of all the evidence in this case, this DNA evidence, because it is based on verifiable scientific processes done in labs, in a controlled environment, should be the evidence the prosecution is the least concerned about sharing with the defense - unless the prosecutor knows something is wrong with it. To me, it looks like Thompson is absolutely desperate to hide this DNA information from the defense and is having to be dragged kicking and screaming through the court process in order to surrender it to the defense. He even claimed the documentation of the IGG process doesn't exist in court and in front of a judge and then it has turned out that was not true. Which begs the question why??? Why is he behaving like this???

We don't have access to any of the reports or discovery, so we can only go on what is in the media so far.

We see Howard Blum wrote that they only found 20 skin cells or less when at least 80 are usually needed to get an STR. We also know some cells will be destroyed during the testing - 20% to 80% of the cells are destroyed.

"Currently, the optimum DNA input to the PCR for STR profiling is around 500 pg [[1], [2], [3]], which equates to approximately 80 diploid cells (∼6 pg/cell [4]). If the potential of DNA loss through workflow processing is not considered, any item from which 80 cells are collected should generate a full DNA profile. Due to inefficient collection of the DNA template present by swabbing or tapelifting techniques and the loss of DNA through standard extraction methods, reported to range between 20 %–80 % [5,6], far more than 80 diploid cells would need to be collected to ensure a full profile downstream given the optimum template stated [[1], [2], [3]]."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497320302258#:~:text=Currently%2C%20the%20optimum%20DNA%20input,generate%20a%20full%20DNA%20profile.

Even if the newest STR process was used that can be done on 5 cells, if the sample was 20 cells and then 80% of those cells were destroyed that leaves only 2 cells.

Was Blum right about the 20 cells or less? That begs the question, was the DNA STR profile from the Idaho crime lab partial? Is it possible that the Texas lab couldn't run the IGG because the sample was partial so the FBI lab took over? Could this be why the Texas lab's datafile is much smaller than that of the FBI? And even more concerning, is this why the prosecutor has been fighting against the defense seeing the DNA evidence?

We don't know the answers to any of the above questions, but they are reasonable to ask given that the prosecutor has been trying to do all he can to keep the DNA evidence and DNA evidence chain of custody from the defense.

All JMO, IMOO.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/071423+Reply+In+Support+of+Motion+for+Protectiive+Order.pdf

 

[SpiderFalcon]

I feel much the same as you, but Thompson's behavior regarding the DNA is making me completely and totally doubt the veracity of the DNA, especially in regards to the chain of custody. There should be no reason not to share the chain of custody document and complete documentation of the processing of the DNA and how the IGG was done with the defense. In fact, of all the evidence in this case, this DNA evidence, because it is based on verifiable scientific processes done in labs, in a controlled environment, should be the evidence the prosecution is the least concerned about sharing with the defense - unless the prosecutor knows something is wrong with it. To me, it looks like Thompson is absolutely desperate to hide this DNA information from the defense and is having to be dragged kicking and screaming through the court process in order to surrender it to the defense. He even claimed the documentation of the IGG process doesn't exist in court and in front of a judge and then it has turned out that was not true. Which begs the question why??? Why is he behaving like this???

We don't have access to any of the reports or discovery, so we can only go on what is in the media so far.

We see Howard Blum wrote that they only found 20 skin cells or less when at least 80 are usually needed to get an STR. We also know some cells will be destroyed during the testing - 20% to 80% of the cells are destroyed.

"Currently, the optimum DNA input to the PCR for STR profiling is around 500 pg [[1], [2], [3]], which equates to approximately 80 diploid cells (∼6 pg/cell [4]). If the potential of DNA loss through workflow processing is not considered, any item from which 80 cells are collected should generate a full DNA profile. Due to inefficient collection of the DNA template present by swabbing or tapelifting techniques and the loss of DNA through standard extraction methods, reported to range between 20 %–80 % [5,6], far more than 80 diploid cells would need to be collected to ensure a full profile downstream given the optimum template stated [[1], [2], [3]]."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497320302258#:~:text=Currently%2C%20the%20optimum%20DNA%20input,generate%20a%20full%20DNA%20profile.

Even if the newest STR process was used that can be done on 5 cells, if the sample was 20 cells and then 80% of those cells were destroyed that leaves only 2 cells.

Was Blum right about the 20 cells or less? That begs the question, was the DNA STR profile from the Idaho crime lab partial? Is it possible that the Texas lab couldn't run the IGG because the sample was partial so the FBI lab took over? Could this be why the Texas lab's datafile is much smaller than that of the FBI? And even more concerning, is this why the prosecutor has been fighting against the defense seeing the DNA evidence?

We don't know the answers to any of the above questions, but they are reasonable to ask given that the prosecutor has been trying to do all he can to keep the DNA evidence and DNA evidence chain of custody from the defense.

All JMO, IMOO.

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/051223+States+Response+to+Defendants+Third+Supplemental+Request+for+Discovery

 

[10ofRods]

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/071423+Reply+In+Support+of+Motion+for+Protectiive+Order.pdf

It's so interesting to hear the facts written out in plain legalese. Thanks so much that document is very well done. I love that the State makes it clear that the Defense is saying the State made an argument it never made - and the judge has apparently agreed.

I think.

IMO>

 

[Boxer]

I estimate that time window to be about 30 minutes (perhaps less, since I believe DM called someone in for help, perhaps two persons, although there are definitely small details here and there that make it sound as there are 2-3 scenarios, due to exactly the small changes in word choices in the little we've heard from various parties). I believe DM when she says she woke up around 11:30.

I do NOT think that anyone knew about the murders before DM went to investigate why her roommates weren't answering texts (she may have texted them at 11:30 or a little before or after. I think DM "got up at" 11:30, which does not mean that's when she *woke* up. I believe DM needed help from someone to get the door open. I do not believe (given what the PCA says) that extensive blood was found outside the door. The latent footprint is just a few yards away (meaning, it was already invisible). It's possible there was a visible bloody footprint, which - if I personally found such a thing in my house, I think my brain would short circuit.

Texting is just automatic for under 40's (and some of us older people are learning, too). For teens and 20-somethings, it's the communicative fabric of their lives. It's amazing how fast they can do it, how many new words and acronyms they invent, how quickly they invent private languages, etc. Some of these text chains are enormous (I'm on one with the young generations in two different parts of my family - I wake up every morning to about 25 texts, a handful of TikToks, and 10-12 Snapchats). Heck, I'm on one with colleagues, which goes dormant, but when anything unusual happens at work, there are like 20 of us talking for a few days and it's very much better than discussing things out in the hallway. We've grown closer, cleared the air, educated each other, helped each other, advised each other - it's great. The kids are the same way.

So, even if the texting began just after 11:58, word would have spread like wildfire. It likely began *before* 11:58. But IMO, it did not begin before then, nor did DM or BF get up at 8 or 9 in the morning (or 10) and see blood in the house and wait until 11:58 to call (as some youtubers are falsely claiming).

IMO, and IME.

Agree.
And most have individual messages going with friends and then group messages based on different groupings of friends. Alerting a lot of people immediately would be easy.

 

[Boxer]

IMO knowing what time the student texting started and who sent the first text would logically be worthwhile knowing. It could be important or it could be unimportant. For example: what would LE make of it if the texts began at 9am versus around noon? We don't know what time they began and there is no public information as to if this was investigated, so all I can suggest is that LE should definitely find out when the first message was sent and by whom if they have not already.

How is it important? No one has the timeline yet.

 

[10ofRods]

How is it important? No one has the timeline yet.

I feel like when we do finally hear from the two housemates, the entire situation is going to be very nuanced, they were probably sleepy, confused, terrified, in disbelief, a little shocky, more looking for help than looking at timepieces, etc. It will be sad and riveting testimony and most jurors will feel tremendous sympathy and empathy, perhaps even a bit of distaste if the Defense tries to discredit the witnesses by insisting their timelines aren't perfect. The State will be able to connect with the jury on that topic, IMO.

No one should expect two 20-21 year olds in that situation to be the world's most precise and reliable witnesses. Even firemen and policemen have discrepancies as eyewitnesses. Heck, State could call an expert with that data - it's well known that in an extreme event, people remember things differently (I've never known two people to remember any complex event taking place over an hour or more to be completely in unison in what they remember, which can also change over time).

And most crimes, fires and illegal activities are not on camera. Only snippets of things are on camera.

 

[DFWNF]

It could be smoke signals or carrier pigeons and I'd still wonder why several friends were contacted before LE.

That said, LE ruled out anyone who was there that morning and BK is sitting in jail charged with murder x 4.

Bbm, if it was me, and I am over 50, and shocked and scared or unaware of wtf was going on etc, I would grab my partner's phone and call my Mom, my brother, and my closest pals before I called 911. Jmo

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Who do you suspect was texting if not the people present when 911 was called? The police publicly cleared them all. It would have to be someone besides the roommates and besides the friends that were there that they called. The police know who they called based on their phone records. If needed, then they could follow the phone records of the people the friends called. They cleared them all, and the video has also confirmed that she did not say morning.

The question of the timeline and the texts has nothing to do with who was cleared or not cleared, IMO.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

IMO knowing what time the student texting started and who sent the first text would logically be worthwhile knowing. It could be important or it could be unimportant. For example: what would LE make of it if the texts began at 9am versus around noon? We don't know what time they began and there is no public information as to if this was investigated, so all I can suggest is that LE should definitely find out when the first message was sent and by whom if they have not already.

RBBM

What makes you think LE didn’t didn’t complete that very basic but crucial investigatory step in the early days of the investigation?

MOO, we have no reason other than unsubstantiated rank rumors from other disreputable places to make that assumption, MOO.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, MPD all on its own, is the opposite of the Keystone cops. This wasn’t our first or even second mass murder: it was our third. And we’ve had other horrific crimes. Some MPD officers, including Chief Fry, have been on the force for all of that. MPD is not inexperienced at complex investigations, IME.

Even if MPD was woefully inexperienced enough to “miss” such a basic step, which they are not, there were multiple other departments on the ground here extraordinarily quickly, MOO.

For me, it strains credulity to think all LE involved would somehow overlook such an important yet basic investigative step.

All, MOO as always.

 

[Chloegirl]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>
I had listened to it previously but not focused on that part. So, I relistened. Which made me think I heard morning. Perhaps Sunday morning those two words just go together in your mind and it filled in the blanks as opposed to heard the words. So I relistened. Then I figured out nope it didn't say morning. JMOO

Human nature is very interesting even when it's you.

 

[10ofRods]

Bbm, if it was me, and I am over 50, and shocked and scared or unaware of wtf was going on etc, I would grab my partner's phone and call my Mom, my brother, and my closest pals before I called 911. Jmo

It's amazing how often that happens - we've discussed it a little but it's an important aspect of studying crime. There are all kinds of examples of lost people (especially teens and 20-somethings) where they are lost and they call their parents instead of 911. Parents can't locate them because they aren't 911. Parents are in a near state of shock and do not think of using a second phone (if they have one) to call 911 and try and convey the situation.

There are many examples of students who've been assaulted (sexually or otherwise) and they call family first, or friends first. Sometimes people have to be encouraged to call 911, as they just want to hide inside their minds (or literally collapse) and do not want to make the call, or appear physically incapable of doing it. Sometimes the victim won't call police until they are physically in the presence of a friend or loved one (anyone who has worked a rape hotline has been through this - many of the calls come from friends or family, who have the victim nearby and are easing the into reporting and seeking counseling). With luck, it's on the day of the assault, but many times, it's later.

Most people experience extreme states of mind when first seeing a bloody murder scene (esp if it's people you know and love!) Even LE in this case recount how incredibly hard it was to be first on scene (I can't imagine; I lasted exactly one call-out in my short career, at age 19, as a crime scene photographer - and it was not nearly as gruesome as this crime). None of the people hired with me lasted more than a few months. Now, they recruit from more seasoned, civilian employees within LE (often lab workers, who have by then, seen it all - and are older than my group was).

In this case, DM and BF probably would have called the other housemates for - but that was stolen from them by the murderer. All their sense of reality and safety was stolen, and if they are normal humans, it will come back again and again, in different forms, throughout their lives. Same for the LEO's who responded.

IMO.

 

[Chloegirl]

It's amazing how often that happens - we've discussed it a little but it's an important aspect of studying crime. There are all kinds of examples of lost people (especially teens and 20-somethings) where they are lost and they call their parents instead of 911. Parents can't locate them because they aren't 911. Parents are in a near state of shock and do not think of using a second phone (if they have one) to call 911 and try and convey the situation.

There are many examples of students who've been assaulted (sexually or otherwise) and they call family first, or friends first. Sometimes people have to be encouraged to call 911, as they just want to hide inside their minds (or literally collapse) and do not want to make the call, or appear physically incapable of doing it. Sometimes the victim won't call police until they are physically in the presence of a friend or loved one (anyone who has worked a rape hotline has been through this - many of the calls come from friends or family, who have the victim nearby and are easing the into reporting and seeking counseling). With luck, it's on the day of the assault, but many times, it's later.

Most people experience extreme states of mind when first seeing a bloody murder scene (esp if it's people you know and love!) Even LE in this case recount how incredibly hard it was to be first on scene (I can't imagine; I lasted exactly one call-out in my short career, at age 19, as a crime scene photographer - and it was not nearly as gruesome as this crime). None of the people hired with me lasted more than a few months. Now, they recruit from more seasoned, civilian employees within LE (often lab workers, who have by then, seen it all - and are older than my group was).

In this case, DM and BF probably would have called the other housemates for - but that was stolen from them by the murderer. All their sense of reality and safety was stolen, and if they are normal humans, it will come back again and again, in different forms, throughout their lives. Same for the LEO's who responded.

IMO.

Okay now I'm sending hugs to Dylan and Bethany! We have no clue how we would react and like Zanna said at the vigil, that day was a bit of a blur or however she put it. Stress does that to you and the facts get all jumbled. JMOO