4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #91

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  • #141
IIRC in the Vallow case, the Defense filed umpteen Discovery Requests but many simply repeated requests made in earlier versions when the State still hadn’t complied. I assume the same holds true here so there’s not necessarily been requests for 10 different sets of info.

Very possible - even likely. The main thing seems to have been the mental product of a computer. They want to know how Othram linked BK's full DNA profile to the name Kohberger. If a human were able to think through this data (which we aren't able to do, no one has ever done it to my knowledge), it would be "work product" and not discoverable. If I see a blue thread on a door frame and then see a similar blue thread on a bedspread, at a crime scene, what part of my brain did I use to determine "similarity"?? The answer is: no one knows and the more we know about how humans do inductive and deductive reasoning, the less easy it is to describe. But no one expects thinking (by criminals or by investigators) to be "discoverable."

A machine did the thinking in this case. It "noticed" similarities between BK's DNA and the DNA of relatives. It also had its own directory (a private phonebook of names linked to DNA data). So it produced a list of last names and one of the people already under suspicion (Kohberger) leaped out. Like a sore thumb (how do we know our thumbs are sore?? VERY hard to explain scientifically but we do know when we have one).

So then, in order to be sure, they went to Kohberger's father's house and did a legal search on trash (so far ruled legal by courts in various places - maybe there's even been a Supreme Court decision, I don't know). Then they ran a paternity algorithm (again, inside a computer) and yep, the sheath DNA's father was Mr. Kohberger. And he had only one son.

The end.

And I think the Defense is trying hard to say that if Othram doesn't turn over its code (the thinking of a machine), the entire DNA thing is...what? To be thrown out? Personally, I think this is such a stretch (has any lawyer ever tried to get machine thinking? from the FBI - who managed this? You can't subpoena thinking of anyone - or even conversations held by FBI agents while thinking and talking).

At least, that's my understanding. IANAL.
 
  • #142
Is that what you think was the original intention? No one has discussed this really everybody seems to skim right over that concept. Maybe I should not say everyone. But we go from there to the incel conversation and then linger on murder motive. Just trying to follow your post intention. JMOO
Yes. I think he had been peeping and a bit impetuously decided to take action, maybe while driving the loops on Wallenta which MOO look to me like hesitation gestures.
MOO that night he reasoned he was ready. He had his preperations ready in his car so basically he just had to decide when to go do it.
MOO he thought he had the clean weapon, the needed clothes and some Hefty bags for stripping and stowing items needing disposal.
 
  • #143
Yes. I think he had been peeping and a bit impetuously decided to take action, maybe while driving the loops on Wallenta which MOO look to me like hesitation gestures.
MOO that night he reasoned he was ready. He had his preperations ready in his car so basically he just had to decide when to go do it.
MOO he thought he had the clean weapon, the needed clothes and some Hefty bags for stripping and stowing items needing disposal.
JMO if he went over there just to rape one person, he wouldn't have prepared the car or himself to the extent that I believe he did. There would have been more DNA found imo (Jumpsuit/coveralls, a way to peel off and throw in a prepared trash bag - before he even got into his very prepared car - covered in some type of plastic/covering)
JMOO
 
  • #144
I'm sitting here burning the midnight oil on a side project before the holidays. John Douglas's Inside of the Mind of BTK was kicking around my Audible Library so I finally decided to give it a listen.

There's a small part in Chapter 11 that reminded me a lot of the King Road murders. The author describes how Rader used to use his words to disarm and control his victims. With the goal of convincing them that everything would be OK so that they cooperate. I know many of us have noticed that pattern already when hearing about BTK's crimes. But John Douglas specifically mentioning this as a tactic that BTK honed and utilized with forethought and malice really stuck out to me.

The King Street murderer (BK, no doubt, IMO) supposedly said - "It's OK, I'm going to help you." to a person that the PCA presumes to be Xana. I know that we've already discussed those words and some of us already assumed it was to make sure that the person it was directed at didn't scream....and obviously with BK's loose connection to BTK through his former professor (no, IMO I don't think BK ever communicated with BTK) and his Reddit survey we can't help but wonder if this was also a prepared and practiced tactic (IMO, it was)

But the part that really really get's me, and that I'll NEVER understand, is just how cool, calm, and calculated a both of these murderers (MOO) could be and how totally alien and perverse that mindset is to the typical human.

I think the alien part and the struggle to understand explains the fascination many of us have with true crime. The attempt to rationalize the seemingly irrational.

MOO.

<modsnip - off topic>

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays to my non-Christmas friends, and Happy New Year.
I've never believed, and still don't believe, that BK left the sheath at the scene on purpose. But in Katherine Ramsland's book on BTK, it did kind of make me pause for a second to read that he initially left his knife at the scene of his first known murders, the Otero family. He had to go back and retrieve it. Huge coincidence I'm sure, but a weird one.
 
  • #145
I've never believed, and still don't believe, that BK left the sheath at the scene on purpose. But in Katherine Ramsland's book on BTK, it did kind of make me pause for a second to read that he initially left his knife at the scene of his first known murders, the Otero family. He had to go back and retrieve it. Huge coincidence I'm sure, but a weird one.
Yes, Agreed. If so, he obviously thought he has cleaned it so well.....
 
  • #146
MOO BKs basic preparation for the crime of rape were adequate, minus the flat out error of the remaining DNA on the sheath snap.
Even then, the level of forensics applied to the case due to it being murder may not have been available to the MPD for the crime of rape.

Interesting dichotomy emerges, right?

I personally think he came prepared to kill and kill quickly (but may have also thought about rape). I could spin all kinds of probable thought processes for a criminal with these intentions. We know that Joe DeAngelo didn't *always* rape, but that he started early with both hot prowling and trophy collecting - and sexual fantasies about young girls, whom he stalked (and then zeroed in on one girl, peeping through her windows, and then entering the house - armed - and attempting to kidnap her; her father was shot trying to defend her).

So many elements of different crimes - which BK had thoroughly studied in Ramsland's class.

BTK. Ted Bundy, Joe DeAngelo, Elliot Rodger. I'm sure there are others. A sexual/rape motivation can certain be posited. Perhaps KG's presence changed that. Or something else changed it.

IMO.
 
  • #147
MOO BKs basic preparation for the crime of rape were adequate, minus the flat out error of the remaining DNA on the sheath snap.
Even then, the level of forensics applied to the case due to it being murder may not have been available to the MPD for the crime of rape.

Hummm....

I do have to wonder.....could motivation have been about rape instead of murder? We actually do not know which means this is possible.

Possible MM was the target. A knife is actually normal to have in a rape to force the victim to comply. The unplanned part was finding KG in the bed then finding XK awake, we know she was awake, she had just gotten the food order.

So yes it is possible this was a planned crime of rape that ended up in 4 murders. And I believe with a planned crime of rape he still would have taken all the DNA precautions with his car which translates to keeping the blood evidence out of his car.

2 Cents
 
  • #148
JMO if he went over there just to rape one person, he wouldn't have prepared the car or himself to the extent that I believe he did. There would have been more DNA found imo (Jumpsuit/coveralls, a way to peel off and throw in a prepared trash bag - before he even got into his very prepared car - covered in some type of plastic/covering)
JMOO
I wonder.
Modern premeditating rapists often shave both their head hair and body hair to prepare, and even bank robbers now change out of their robbery clothes standing on a yard bag.
MOO as a student of crime DNA these specific precautions would be on his mind.
 
  • #149
I'm not buying the rape intention scenario at all. I think the killer went in there to take one or multiple lives, period. The main reason being that, especially in this day and age, rape would have left abundant and obvious evidence behind, even with a condom, and BK would obviously know this. KG's parents have said there was no sexual element to the crime. What's the point of prepping your car and wearing gloves if you're planning rape, when you're going to be shedding skin cells, hair and clothing fibers by inevitable friction against the victim. Sorry for graphic but it makes no sense.
I can accept that knife crime has a symbolic parallel to sexual things, but I don't believe there's anything more than that.
More generally : BK is the bad guy here, but I find it excessive when people try to paint him as having every possible vice under the sun. Every little shred of information on him is twisted into something dark. Some commenter on MSM (sorry I can't remember where) was even suggesting he was a vegan because he had repressed cannibalism fantasies. It's ridiculous. "He is the boogeyman", as the media said, so people are projecting whatever terrifies them onto him. What next? A pyromaniac? Elder abuse? Zoophilia ? Anything goes, it seems. He's the bad guy, so he's guilty of everything imaginable. He's never had a mundane interest in anything, everything he's ever done must always imply something horrible.
As I've said before I think BK probably is guilty, just in case this comes across as some defense of him, it isn't. I just think the unbridled fantasies about his every characteristic are over the top, and the truth is probably much more boring. He had a fascination with a specific act, murder, and wanted to know how it felt to commit it. He was sloppy and got busted. End of story.
 
  • #150
BK is the bad guy here, but I find it excessive when people try to paint him as having every possible vice under the sun. Every little shred of information on him is twisted into something dark
Almost every thread where there's a bad guy and sometimes just a presumed bad guy who isn't even the main bad guy, and the family of the bad guy.
 
  • #151
I'm not buying the rape intention scenario at all. I think the killer went in there to take one or multiple lives, period. The main reason being that, especially in this day and age, rape would have left abundant and obvious evidence behind, even with a condom, and BK would obviously know this. KG's parents have said there was no sexual element to the crime. What's the point of prepping your car and wearing gloves if you're planning rape, when you're going to be shedding skin cells, hair and clothing fibers by inevitable friction against the victim. Sorry for graphic but it makes no sense.
I can accept that knife crime has a symbolic parallel to sexual things, but I don't believe there's anything more than that.
More generally : BK is the bad guy here, but I find it excessive when people try to paint him as having every possible vice under the sun. Every little shred of information on him is twisted into something dark. Some commenter on MSM (sorry I can't remember where) was even suggesting he was a vegan because he had repressed cannibalism fantasies. It's ridiculous. "He is the boogeyman", as the media said, so people are projecting whatever terrifies them onto him. What next? A pyromaniac? Elder abuse? Zoophilia ? Anything goes, it seems. He's the bad guy, so he's guilty of everything imaginable. He's never had a mundane interest in anything, everything he's ever done must always imply something horrible.
As I've said before I think BK probably is guilty, just in case this comes across as some defense of him, it isn't. I just think the unbridled fantasies about his every characteristic are over the top, and the truth is probably much more boring. He had a fascination with a specific act, murder, and wanted to know how it felt to commit it. He was sloppy and got busted. End of story.
I don't believe anything about a Defendant charged with the murder of four wonderful, innocent college kids is excessive. BK (whom I obviously believe to be guilty) has to be one sick dude to carry out such a horrific crime. Plus, what little we have learned from MSM has not been favorable to him at all. He's got a proven track record of problems with women.

He gets no pass from me on anything. If not for his warped, demented actions, these young people would be alive and well living their lives like they had every right to do. The families of these students wouldn't be grieving their loss and spending another holiday without their daughters and son and planning their futures. BK took that from everyone.

JMO
 
  • #152
I'm not buying the rape intention scenario at all. I think the killer went in there to take one or multiple lives, period. The main reason being that, especially in this day and age, rape would have left abundant and obvious evidence behind, even with a condom, and BK would obviously know this. KG's parents have said there was no sexual element to the crime. What's the point of prepping your car and wearing gloves if you're planning rape, when you're going to be shedding skin cells, hair and clothing fibers by inevitable friction against the victim. Sorry for graphic but it makes no sense.
I can accept that knife crime has a symbolic parallel to sexual things, but I don't believe there's anything more than that.
More generally : BK is the bad guy here, but I find it excessive when people try to paint him as having every possible vice under the sun. Every little shred of information on him is twisted into something dark. Some commenter on MSM (sorry I can't remember where) was even suggesting he was a vegan because he had repressed cannibalism fantasies. It's ridiculous. "He is the boogeyman", as the media said, so people are projecting whatever terrifies them onto him. What next? A pyromaniac? Elder abuse? Zoophilia ? Anything goes, it seems. He's the bad guy, so he's guilty of everything imaginable. He's never had a mundane interest in anything, everything he's ever done must always imply something horrible.
As I've said before I think BK probably is guilty, just in case this comes across as some defense of him, it isn't. I just think the unbridled fantasies about his every characteristic are over the top, and the truth is probably much more boring. He had a fascination with a specific act, murder, and wanted to know how it felt to commit it. He was sloppy and got busted. End of story.

I agree with your points here about not leaving evidence etc but I also think BK if guilty did intend to violate with the knife in a way that was / is 'rapey' without using his own flesh that he would probably consider a pedestrian and primal act.
 
  • #153
Hummm....

I do have to wonder.....could motivation have been about rape instead of murder? We actually do not know which means this is possible.

Possible MM was the target. A knife is actually normal to have in a rape to force the victim to comply. The unplanned part was finding KG in the bed then finding XK awake, we know she was awake, she had just gotten the food order.

So yes it is possible this was a planned crime of rape that ended up in 4 murders. And I believe with a planned crime of rape he still would have taken all the DNA precautions with his car which translates to keeping the blood evidence out of his car.

2 Cents

In that case, he was allowing for the use of the knife (IOW, he would not have let his rape victim survive the attack - which is, of course, fairly common in violent stranger rapes).

If what we're all speculating about has any merit, then BK would have fantasized about the rape, but also about murder. IMO, it is unlikely that he was getting any sexual fulfillment with any real human. He would have fantasized about rape as either the only way he could "get sex" or the only way he could become aroused enough for sex. Not uncommon, either - but most people with these fantasies do not act them out. But, some do. I personally wonder if BK would have been capable of rape, even without KG in the room. I find it plausible that (as others have said throughout the past year of this case) he then substituted knife attack for actual sex, angry and furious about his own bizarre and hateful "sexuality." He may have come prepared for both, and been furious and disappointed that he could not, even with his fantasy enacted, achieve what he wished. Whether he was born with defects in his brain that made him this way or he created the brain/mind he had through his own learning and actions, we'll never know. It's probably both.

While researching this brain topic, yet again, I found information new to me (not all that surprising, but still, new to me). It involves the changes in the right-pre-frontal cortex (crucial in decision-making, especially the use of morals and the sense of right/wrong) in opiate addicts.

At any rate, the literature on the connection between that area of the brain and the amygdala part of the brain (basically in the brain's under-carriage), is now vast. And dysregulation (either through one's own cognition, through poor nutrition, through under hydration, through use of drugs - on and on) is commonly noted in many different aberrant mental states.

These structures are heavily involved in decision-making, risk assessment and impulse control. While much of the research is about brains with various mental health diagnoses, there's a lot more research about "normals" in various activities and simulated decision-making (a lot of these simulations are a lot like video games; which does make me and others wonder about pro-risk training of these structures in contemporary American life).

The findings include the fact that a situation (outside the brain) can cause increased risk-taking via changes in brain chemistry and brain structure. Of course, internal stimulus is important (and is increasingly well-studied). Poor impulse control and high tolerance for risk go hand in hand, and are associated with a very large number of mental health issues (mania, schizophrenia, schizotypal. anxiety, ADHD, danger-seeking/tolerance, antisocial and on and on). Antisocial/sociopathic behavior is the best-studied, IMO - but it led many people to think that "antisocial" was the main result of pre-frontal/amygdala dysfunction, but now it appears to be just one subtype of people whose right pre-frontal cortex is compromised in some way.

No one knows how long the dysfunctions caused by opiate abuse last in the brain, to what degree these changes delay maturation/adult decision-making, etc, etc.

All of this is my own speculation, based on thinking about this case, brain research and BK's brain, always wishing we knew more about the causes of aberrant behavior.

Frankly, even though we know a lot (and could do a kind of screening), the social implications and how this screening could ever be done society-wide/legally in the US is the hardest part - as I'm sure you are all well aware.
 
  • #154
Whether BK was prepared or not, he was seemingly very capable. Which causes me to wonder about BKs level of preparedness and proficiency.

He killed 4 people in a matter of minutes. Even if he only had 1 target, killing 4 people is a lot especially for someone who was not prepared to do so. IMO.

JMO but when a knife is used in a crime considered sexual in nature, whether there is rape or not the knife is not always literally phallic in symbol. People often think that rape is motivated by desire, lust etc. It is often about power, control and disempowering the victim.
 
  • #155
But what's the rush? Cost of security maybe, fraternity ghost prankers etc.
Good morning! I have been torn about tearing down the house, no pun intended, but I think it might be time. I don't know how Ethan's poor brother copes, seeing that boarded up house every day. Plus, I'm sure it's affecting the whole neighborhood. Having that huge reminder of the tragedy, just sitting there. If people are coming by, then it's a nuisance magnet. Plus, I'm sure property values are being affected, which also hurts the neighborhood. And, your comment about fraternity ghost prankers sent my thoughts in an entirely new direction. Hopefully razing the house will keep self-proclaimed psychics, mediums, ghost hunters, etc. from trying to make a buck off this tragedy. The last thing any of the family members need is to to see that house on a ghost hunting show 2 or 3 years from now.
 
  • #156
Interesting dichotomy emerges, right?

I personally think he came prepared to kill and kill quickly (but may have also thought about rape). I could spin all kinds of probable thought processes for a criminal with these intentions. We know that Joe DeAngelo didn't *always* rape, but that he started early with both hot prowling and trophy collecting - and sexual fantasies about young girls, whom he stalked (and then zeroed in on one girl, peeping through her windows, and then entering the house - armed - and attempting to kidnap her; her father was shot trying to defend her).

So many elements of different crimes - which BK had thoroughly studied in Ramsland's class.

BTK. Ted Bundy, Joe DeAngelo, Elliot Rodger. I'm sure there are others. A sexual/rape motivation can certain be posited. Perhaps KG's presence changed that. Or something else changed it.

IMO.

With wiping the sheath down, I don't think he thought about rape.. RAPE would leave lots of DNA and he was focused on getting away with it...and how do you RAPE in a mask, gloves, etc. Just doesn't seem to add up to rape.

I personally think he came to kill one person and that was it.
 
  • #157
With wiping the sheath down, I don't think he thought about rape.. RAPE would leave lots of DNA and he was focused on getting away with it...and how do you RAPE in a mask, gloves, etc. Just doesn't seem to add up to rape.

I personally think he came to kill one person and that was it.
Not saying this because I believe BK went there with the aim of rape - I don't think he did, I think he went to kill - but Joseph DeAngelo wore mask and gloves while committing his crimes.

MOO
 
  • #158
  • #159
Whether BK was prepared or not, he was seemingly very capable. Which causes me to wonder about BKs level of preparedness and proficiency.

He killed 4 people in a matter of minutes. Even if he only had 1 target, killing 4 people is a lot especially for someone who was not prepared to do so. IMO.

JMO but when a knife is used in a crime considered sexual in nature, whether there is rape or not the knife is not always literally phallic in symbol. People often think that rape is motivated by desire, lust etc. It is often about power, control and disempowering the victim.
Yes. I think when I used the word rape it was the wrong word.

I think sexual assault is more appropriate. Sexual assault can be just touching a person's body inappropriately. But there was power and control involved.

I don't get why people believe that BK touched his victims over and over with a knife but then not believe he is capable of planning to touch them in a sexual assaultive way. He proved he is more than capable of this.

He could have planned to assault one of them and also commit murder to keep from getting caught. To stop the victim from reporting him.

2 Cents
 
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  • #160
With wiping the sheath down, I don't think he thought about rape.. RAPE would leave lots of DNA and he was focused on getting away with it...and how do you RAPE in a mask, gloves, etc. Just doesn't seem to add up to rape.

I personally think he came to kill one person and that was it.
Agreed. As I recall, BK's Pennsylvania attorney commented that BK was anxious to be transported back to Idaho to see what evidence the Idaho LE had on him. Because, IMO, he truly believed he had covered 'all his bases' and planned the perfect murder. IMO.
 
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