4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #98

[Balthazar]

This is exactly why the details are important to know.
Collection (method used), processing and statistical analysis (parameters).
jmo

Absolutely. And this is why I have a real problem with prosecution trying to hide this information

They had/have BK's DNA on the knife sheath snap left at the murder scene. That is a staggering 5,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000+%, perfect single source match, no other DNA from a 'friend' or the 'seller' was found, ONLY BK's.

That number doesn't mean what you think it means. Even as a probability it is wrong and easily disputed. For example, only 117 billion humans have ever been born here on earth and scientists have only recently begun to discover that complete strangers can have nearly identical DNA (for example, dopplegangers.) Doppelgängers Similar in Looks and DNA: Study.

The surviving roommate's testimony, and the latent shoe print recovered right outside her door that was said to have a Vans type soul consistent to his size (12).

Where did you read this? Is there an MSM article that states the latent print was a 13? Could you please provide a link?

 

[MassGuy]

Absolutely. And this is why I have a real problem with prosecution trying to hide this information

That number doesn't mean what you think it means. Even as a probability it is wrong and easily disputed. For example, only 117 billion humans have ever been born here on earth and scientists have only recently begun to discover that complete strangers can have nearly identical DNA (for example, dopplegangers.) Doppelgängers Similar in Looks and DNA: Study.


Where did you read this? Is there an MSM article that states the latent print was a 13? Could you please provide a link?

Can you please provide evidence to those numbers being "easily disputed." I have never, not once, encountered a case where the defense made a claim like that. What they have claimed in similar situations, is cross contamination, a lab error, or provided another reason why a suspect's DNA is in a particular location. They do not question the statistical match itself, unless it is low (we really don't see that these days).

It doesn't matter if only 117 billion people have been born. Modern testing analyzes far more markers, which makes it much more precise than in years past. That's why we see crazy high numbers now when we used to see hundreds of millions or billions to one.

Doppelgängers do not have the same DNA. They share similar genetic combinations, but a DNA test would clearly differentiate the two.

 

[LinasK]

Can you please provide evidence to those numbers being "easily disputed." I have never, not once, encountered a case where the defense made a claim like that. What they have claimed in similar situations, is cross contamination, a lab error, or provided another reason why a suspect's DNA is in a particular location. They do not question the statistical match itself, unless it is low (we really don't see that these days).

It doesn't matter if only 117 billion people have been born. Modern testing analyzes far more markers, which makes it much more precise than in years past. That's why we see crazy high numbers now when we used to see hundreds of millions or billions to one.

Doppelgängers do not have the same DNA. They share similar genetic combinations, but a DNA test would clearly differentiate the two.

I actually saw my doppelganger once. I highly doubt that she shares the same medical conditions that I have.

 

[Nila Aella]

The IGG hearing witness brought up statistics and how they relate to this case.
We will probably hear it again on the 23rd, IF the Judge allows an open hearing.
jmo

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Absolutely. And this is why I have a real problem with prosecution trying to hide this information

That number doesn't mean what you think it means. Even as a probability it is wrong and easily disputed. For example, only 117 billion humans have ever been born here on earth and scientists have only recently begun to discover that complete strangers can have nearly identical DNA (for example, dopplegangers.) Doppelgängers Similar in Looks and DNA: Study.


Where did you read this? Is there an MSM article that states the latent print was a 13? Could you please provide a link?

BBM

People have mentioned this over time but there's never been verified information of what data LE are holding about the shoe print, esp specific to what size it is.

We will only find out the evidence when it's in discovery

 

[NCWatcher]

BBM

People have mentioned this over time but there's never been verified information of what data LE are holding about the shoe print, esp specific to what size it is.

We will only find out the evidence when it's in discovery

Maybe not even then. We may have to wait for the trial.

I agree there are assumptions being made and sometimes posted about what the evidence shows-- not just that the shoe size imprint found matches BK's & may even match a pair of his shoes that were seized by LE, but that his Amazon account shows the purchase of a knife that would fit the sheath, maybe even shows the purchase of the sheath, that the brand/model of the murder weapon is known, that BK's social media accounts show definite (legally-defined) "stalking" behavior, that video evidence from the night of the crime can be shown to include HIS car not just a white car that could be his.... Some of those assumptions may turn out to be true (maybe even all of them will but I really really doubt it.) But regardless, we surely don't know it now.
MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

I am posting a link in support of the info I referred to in my above post. It contains a lot of information regarding the case particulars as we know them today, and more importantly the actual PCA's behind the SW's executed at BK's Apt in Pullman WSU, BK's Office, BK's parents home and his vehicle in Pennsylvania. I found it interesting that LE recovers a shovel from BK's vehicle during the PA SW. How many of us (not counting construction workers or related fields) drive around with a shovel in our trunk?

Lots of good information here, located in one place regarding the PCA and other info. I'm sure it's been posted many times before, but it was a good refresher for me. Also, it mentions the discovery of the latent shoe print outside of DM's door and the recovery of 13 hairs one being dog hair. Wouldn't that be great if Kaylee's pupper helped solve the case?

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271342422.html

JMO

 

[Nila Aella]

Absolutely. And this is why I have a real problem with prosecution trying to hide this information

That number doesn't mean what you think it means. Even as a probability it is wrong and easily disputed. For example, only 117 billion humans have ever been born here on earth and scientists have only recently begun to discover that complete strangers can have nearly identical DNA (for example, dopplegangers.) Doppelgängers Similar in Looks and DNA: Study.


Where did you read this? Is there an MSM article that states the latent print was a 13? Could you please provide a link?

Thanks for reposting that paper.
Very interesting.

“We ran the pictures of faces through three different facial recognition algorithms, to show they are, in an objective manner, look-alikes,”

the researchers found that true look-alikes shared more genetic variants with each other than did the 16 less similar pairs.

“The elegant experiment described in the paper . . . shows that look-alike individuals share more genetic variants than randomly-selected individuals.”

“This could open up a Pandora’s Box for forensics, but it is exciting.”

jmo

 

[Kemug]

It is exciting. Many years ago my father pointed out my doppelganger in a magazine. I'm happy to report that it was an Italian princess.

 

[Nila Aella]

I am posting a link in support of the info I referred to in my above post. It contains a lot of information regarding the case particulars as we know them today, and more importantly the actual PCA's behind the SW's executed at BK's Apt in Pullman WSU, BK's Office, BK's parents home and his vehicle in Pennsylvania. I found it interesting that LE recovers a shovel from BK's vehicle during the PA SW. How many of us (not counting construction workers or related fields) drive around with a shovel in our trunk?

Just about everyone who lives where it snows.
It is part of an emergency kit.
jmo

Lots of good information here, located in one place regarding the PCA and other info. I'm sure it's been posted many times before, but it was a good refresher for me. Also, it mentions the discovery of the latent shoe print outside of DM's door and the recovery of 13 hairs one being dog hair. Wouldn't that be great if Kaylee's pupper helped solve the case?

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271342422.html

JMO

From the article:

13 possible hair strands — one possibly from an animal.

From the actual return page 48 (linked in the article)

1 possible animal hair strand

jmo

 

[girlhasnoname]

Just about everyone who lives where it snows.
It is part of an emergency kit.
jmo

I have to disagree with it being "just about everyone". I lived in Michigan and Iowa for a number of years, both of which have record breaking cold temps and snowfall. I never carried a shovel in my car. These States are well equipped to handle the roads during the winter. I think BK might have used it to bury something, maybe a knife?

From the article:

13 possible hair strands — one possibly from an animal.

From the actual return page 48 (linked in the article)

1 possible animal hair strand

Possible, that's true. Possibly one of the murdered victims hair and Kaylee's dog?? DNA testing can narrow even animal hair down to a science now.

JMO

 

[CKS]

I think just the opposite based purely on science. Human beings shed almost 1,000,000 skin cells per day and 50 to 70 billion of our cells die each day. In one hour, we shed at least 30,000 to 40,000 skin cells. According to what LE told Howard Blum there were only 20 or less skin cells on the sheath snap. Low cell count almost always indicates secondary DNA transfer. JMO.

Secondary Transfer of DNA in Forensics

Secondary DNA transfer occurs when DNA is transferred to an object or person through an intermediate.

www.news-medical.net

The 20 or less skin cells on the sheath is most likely a secondary DNA transfer. Usually it takes 80 skin cells to get a complete STR. But those 80 are "remaining cells" so would have to have come from an even larger sample of at least 200 cells because some cells are destroyed during the STR process. JMO.


All JMO.

All MOO

In regards to the bolded portion this is why in my opinion it's a head scratcher that all LE found was a teeny tiny amount of BK's DNA and it was on a moveable object as well. Not too mention LE did not find any of the victims DNA in BK's car, apartment, or office. That alone is extremely hard to believe that somehow none of the victims DNA came with BK after he supposedly stabbed them.

The odds of that are nearly impossible in my opinion.

In my opinion it's going to be an uphill battle for the prosecution to prove BK was ever in that house.

All MOO.

 

[MassGuy]

All MOO

In regards to the bolded portion this is why in my opinion it's a head scratcher that all LE found was a teeny tiny amount of BK's DNA and it was on a moveable object as well. Not too mention LE did not find any of the victims DNA in BK's car, apartment, or office. That alone is extremely hard to believe that somehow none of the victims DNA came with BK after he supposedly stabbed them.

The odds of that are nearly impossible in my opinion.

In my opinion it's going to be an uphill battle for the prosecution to prove BK was ever in that house.

All MOO.

We're talking about a guy here who was fascinated by not only other criminals, but crime itself. I believe he planned this methodically, scouting the house on multiple occasions. He would have worn gloves, likely something like a Tyvex suit, and would have made preparations inside his vehicle to limit transfer. FBI agents had to watch him scrub the inside and outside of his vehicle, so it's totally reasonable to believe that any DNA that was originally transferred from the crime scene (if any), was destroyed (he would have researched what cleaning agents to use).

The DNA on she sheath isn't a head scratcher to me at all. That's a part of the sheath that the killer would have to touch, probably just before he left his apartment to commit this crime.

I totally disagree that it's going to be an uphill battle to prove BK was in that house. His DNA was there, and once you look at his pre and post offense behavior, phone data, surveillance footage that jibes with what the phone data shows, this becomes not only a slam dunk, but a laugher.

And we only know a fraction of the evidence against him at this point.

 

[joe jones]

They don't want to hand over a list of countless innocent people that will be scrutinized as a result of the process. That's spectacularly unfair, as there is no question that Kohberger's DNA is what matches the sheath; not a relative.

Innocent people shouldn't have to pay a price just because they share DNA with a killer, or because their names came up as a result of that analysis.

This is a criminal trial and whatever the state chose to do to identify BK is discovery, if that includes hundreds of names of innocent people then BK is on that list, as he is innocent of any crime as of today, how they got to match his DNA to the sheath pre him giving his buccal swab is a huge part of the investigation and his defence has every right to scrutinise all the documents, the reports, the methodology, if they used a company that has a method that is unique to them and they don't want to give away the copyright the judge can make an order that the defence will sign a waiver that they won't reveal confidential information about the method,
His defence should be afforded everything the state has,

 

[MeadowMuffin]

I found it interesting that LE recovers a shovel from BK's vehicle during the PA SW. How many of us (not counting construction workers or related fields) drive around with a shovel in our trunk?



JMO

Me. When I lived in NJ I carried a folding military shovel in my trunk to dig myself out of snow. Being as how BK lived in PA, and drove a lot, I could see him having one.

 

[joe jones]

All MOO

In regards to the bolded portion this is why in my opinion it's a head scratcher that all LE found was a teeny tiny amount of BK's DNA and it was on a moveable object as well. Not too mention LE did not find any of the victims DNA in BK's car, apartment, or office. That alone is extremely hard to believe that somehow none of the victims DNA came with BK after he supposedly stabbed them.

The odds of that are nearly impossible in my opinion.

In my opinion it's going to be an uphill battle for the prosecution to prove BK was ever in that house.

All MOO.

Sometimes people can commit horrific crimes and leave no DNA, I watched the trial of Jessie Dotson who killed 4 adults by shooting, stabbed and battered to death 2 children, and stabbed and battered 2 more who survived, the children left there blood all over the house so JD was chasing them throughout multiple rooms yet LE found not one spot of JD DNA in the home, they found one fingerprint on a beer can so at some point if he had gloves on he took at least one off,

 

[mmeynstyn]

IMO, the reason the PCA does not mention the IGG is because they had their suspect before the results of the IGG came in. Once again, JMO the IGG process may have already be in-work; however, was not used. JMO

Dates below are from PCA, MSM, and MOO
11/13-14 (within the first couple days): Eye Witness Description obtained / Knife Sheath found and sent out for any DNA.
11/17: MSM reports Ka Bar style knife found Police seek ‘Rambo’-style knife in probe of Idaho student murders: report
NOTE: Possibly, they already knew the DNA was NOT in CODIS at this time and needed other methods for ID. IMO, this may also be around the time they INITIATED the IGG process.
11/21: MSM reports canvasing of Moscow areas for video of White Elantra Idaho police seek video from areas of interest in Moscow murders
11/29: WSU police officer located 2015 Elantra on campus; Drivers license photo and traffic stop video matched witness description. https://www.cnn.com/us/idaho-studen...29,consistent with the roommate's description.

IMO, within the next couple days: 1) WSU video surveillance revealed the White Elantra was out and about in the early morning, within hours before and after the crime. 2) IMO, with the information obtained at this point, they had enough to get cell phone records? (Legal experts out there....would the information thus far be enough to obtain a subpoena for cell phone data?)

IMO, I really do not think they received any IGG data at this time as it was only about two weeks later. Thus, IMO, the IGG is not critical in this case and is why the P continue to push back.

Now, I must ask what was going on for almost an entire month, between the end of November and the PA trash collection. Further cell phone data analysis - yes. WSU Apartment trash bin search? - maybe they tried without any luck for all we know.

All JMO

 

[Jade]

I think just the opposite based purely on science. Human beings shed almost 1,000,000 skin cells per day and 50 to 70 billion of our cells die each day. In one hour, we shed at least 30,000 to 40,000 skin cells. According to what LE told Howard Blum there were only 20 or less skin cells on the sheath snap. Low cell count almost always indicates secondary DNA transfer. JMO.

Secondary Transfer of DNA in Forensics

Secondary DNA transfer occurs when DNA is transferred to an object or person through an intermediate.

www.news-medical.net

The 20 or less skin cells on the sheath is most likely a secondary DNA transfer. Usually it takes 80 skin cells to get a complete STR. But those 80 are "remaining cells" so would have to have come from an even larger sample of at least 200 cells because some cells are destroyed during the STR process. JMO.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1872497320302258#:~:text=Currently%2C%20the%20optimum%20DNA%20input,generate%20a%20full%20DNA%20profile.

The most up to date techniques can get an STR from 20 cells, BUT, I'm not 100% certain they were able to get a complete STR profile from 20 skin cells or less mainly because some of them are wasted during processing. JMO. Indirect DNA Transfer and Forensic Implications: A Literature Review - PMC

I would be very interested in knowing how many cells were in the the two other samples and much more importantly, what they were composed of? If they are DNA from a body fluid such as semen, spit, sweat or blood, I would think the two unknown samples were far more important than a low cell count secondary skin cell transfer DNA on the sheath. JMO.

All JMO.

That is not taking in to account BK cleaning the sheath then wearing gloves for all handling there on.

So it also stands reasonable that there were only that much after the cleaning of the sheath.

From your link the study states that it is more probable to obtain a mixed DNA if there has been a secondary transfer.

There is no mixed DNA like we see in other cases where there has been secondary transfer.

Perhaps BK is one of your linked studies’ low shedders that naturally doesn’t leave much behind.

>>

Progress in DNA profiling techniques has made it possible to detect even the minimum amount of DNA at a crime scene (i.e., a complete DNA profile can be produced using as little as 100 pg of DNA, equivalent to only 15–20 human cells), leading to new defense strategies.

>>

Further studies clarified that on ‘shedder status’, not two but three categories of status should be used: high, intermediate, and low shedder



3.2. Main Findings

Based on their results, the authors concluded that secondary transfer should be considered a very unusual event.



4. Discussion

Based on these findings, DNA transfer remains challenging in forensic science, both in case evaluations and in court testimony. Considering the results of this review that show the problems related to indirect transfer, it is more probable to obtain a DNA mixture from a piece of evidence.


Indirect DNA Transfer and Forensic Implications: A Literature Review - PMC


All imo

 

[joe jones]

www.cps.gov.uk
PDF
guidance on dna charging - The Crown Prosecution Service

The Crown Prosecution has published a recent report on how DNA evidence is to be collected and used to prosecute suspects, all the agencies will now collaborate and decide what is to be collected, tested etc to be cost effective and have the best outcome for a successful prosecution,
Some background reading for those interested in how other countries use DNA forensically,
It helps that there are one set of standards and rules for the whole country

 

[Balthazar]

That is not taking in to account BK cleaning the sheath then wearing gloves for all handling there on.

So it also stands reasonable that there were only that much after the cleaning of the sheath.

From your link the study states that it is more probable to obtain a mixed DNA if there has been a secondary transfer.

There is no mixed DNA like we see in other cases where there has been secondary transfer.

Perhaps BK is one of your linked studies’ low shedders that naturally doesn’t leave much behind.

>>

Progress in DNA profiling techniques has made it possible to detect even the minimum amount of DNA at a crime scene (i.e., a complete DNA profile can be produced using as little as 100 pg of DNA, equivalent to only 15–20 human cells), leading to new defense strategies.

>>

Further studies clarified that on ‘shedder status’, not two but three categories of status should be used: high, intermediate, and low shedder



3.2. Main Findings

Based on their results, the authors concluded that secondary transfer should be considered a very unusual event.



4. Discussion

Based on these findings, DNA transfer remains challenging in forensic science, both in case evaluations and in court testimony. Considering the results of this review that show the problems related to indirect transfer, it is more probable to obtain a DNA mixture from a piece of evidence.


Indirect DNA Transfer and Forensic Implications: A Literature Review - PMC


All imo

One study indicated that 85% of tests had some degree of secondary DNA transfer.

Secondary Transfer of DNA in Forensics

Secondary DNA transfer occurs when DNA is transferred to an object or person through an intermediate.

www.news-medical.net

Secondary DNA Transfer: The Rarely Discussed Phenomenon That Can Place the Innocent (and the Dead) at a Crime Scene They’ve Never Been To | Criminal Legal News

Study raises questions about DNA evidence - UIndy 360

Graduate Student Cynthia Cale (center) and recent graduate Madison Earll (far right) discuss their DNA transfer study with online news channel TheLip.tv. Watch an interview with the researchers on TheLip.tv Read Cynthia Cale's column in the science journal Nature UIndy researchers say...

news.uindy.edu

Skin cells are omnipresent. Not only are they on objects, but they float around in the air and can land on literally anything they come into contact with. Something as simple as going to the grocery store can result in you skin cells going home with multiple people who don't know you and were never in your presence and they can inadvertently place your skin cells on objects they come into contact with.