4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #98

[Jade]

One study indicated that 85% of tests had some degree of secondary DNA transfer.

Secondary Transfer of DNA in Forensics

Secondary DNA transfer occurs when DNA is transferred to an object or person through an intermediate.

www.news-medical.net

Secondary DNA Transfer: The Rarely Discussed Phenomenon That Can Place the Innocent (and the Dead) at a Crime Scene They’ve Never Been To | Criminal Legal News

Study raises questions about DNA evidence - UIndy 360

Graduate Student Cynthia Cale (center) and recent graduate Madison Earll (far right) discuss their DNA transfer study with online news channel TheLip.tv. Watch an interview with the researchers on TheLip.tv Read Cynthia Cale's column in the science journal Nature UIndy researchers say...

news.uindy.edu

Skin cells are omnipresent. Not only are they on objects, but they float around in the air and can land on literally anything they come into contact with. Something as simple as going to the grocery store can result in you skin cells going home with multiple people who don't know you and were never in your presence and they can inadvertently place your skin cells on objects they come into contact with.

My post was discussing your previous assertions backed up by the link which you provided.
I can't imagine why that link would be abandoned.

I'm not interested in reading more links beyond the one to which I responded and is now apparently being ignored for some reason.



all imo

 

[Nila Aella]

Search warrant return on the car

The search warrant return showed used water bottles, gloves, boots, room key holder and stay information from a hotel, bandaid, receipt - one from 2018, change, wrappers.....

https://www.pacourts.us/Storage/media/pdfs/20230302/150347-dec.29,2022-searchwarrant(b.kohberger),inventory,exhibits.pdf

 

[Nila Aella]

IMO, the reason the PCA does not mention the IGG is because they had their suspect before the results of the IGG came in. Once again, JMO the IGG process may have already be in-work; however, was not used. JMO

The State has said in court documents that the IGG was a tip from the FBI to MPD pointing them to investigate BK.

Dates below are from PCA, MSM, and MOO
11/13-14 (within the first couple days): Eye Witness Description obtained / Knife Sheath found and sent out for any DNA.
11/17: MSM reports Ka Bar style knife found Police seek ‘Rambo’-style knife in probe of Idaho student murders: report
NOTE: Possibly, they already knew the DNA was NOT in CODIS at this time and needed other methods for ID. IMO, this may also be around the time they INITIATED the IGG process.

I think so too.

11/21: MSM reports canvasing of Moscow areas for video of White Elantra Idaho police seek video from areas of interest in Moscow murders
11/29: WSU police officer located 2015 Elantra on campus; Drivers license photo and traffic stop video matched witness description. https://www.cnn.com/us/idaho-student-killings-timeline/index.html#:~:text=Friday, November 29,consistent with the roommate's description.

BP testified he did not know about this sighting until Dec 20.

IMO, within the next couple days: 1) WSU video surveillance revealed the White Elantra was out and about in the early morning, within hours before and after the crime.

When was the WSU surveillance examined?
And who examined/knew about it?

2) IMO, with the information obtained at this point, they had enough to get cell phone records? (Legal experts out there....would the information thus far be enough to obtain a subpoena for cell phone data?)

BP testified that the first ATT records he saw were Dec 23rd.
If someone did look at his ATT records, who was it?

IMO, I really do not think they received any IGG data at this time as it was only about two weeks later. Thus, IMO, the IGG is not critical in this case and is why the P continue to push back.

Now, I must ask what was going on for almost an entire month, between the end of November and the PA trash collection. Further cell phone data analysis - yes.

Again BP testified that he saw the first ATT records Dec 23rd.
Someone else might have?

WSU Apartment trash bin search? - maybe they tried without any luck for all we know.

BP didn't know about WSU.
Someone else might have?

All JMO

all jmo

 

[CKS]

All MOO

What are the odds the ONLY DNA they found on that sheath were 20 of BK's skin cells also. Didn't they say the sheath was was partially under MM and her comforter?

If that's where the sheath was found how could there not be any blood on it? Seems nearly impossible doesn't it?


Just an opinion.

 

[Tapeartree]

All MOO

What are the odds the ONLY DNA they found on that sheath were 20 of BK's skin cells also. Didn't they say the sheath was was partially under MM and her comforter?

If that's where the sheath was found how could there not be any blood on it? Seems nearly impossible doesn't it?


Just an opinion.

Not impossible since it was never specified which body part was partially covering the sheath. For example, if the sheath was placed at the foot of the bed, she may have been covering it with her foot or calf. Also, it hasn't been specified where she was stabbed exactly. If the stab wound were in the neck region, it's possible that the blood didn't make contact with the sheath at her feet.

Just a scenario that would prove it possible that blood didn't contact the sheath. We just don't know enough information.

I don't remember where the sheath was found in reference to the body. Please link if it has been documented.

 

[Nila Aella]

Case Summary

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/Summary/Case-Summary-Kohberger-01172025.pdf

 

[MassGuy]

All MOO

What are the odds the ONLY DNA they found on that sheath were 20 of BK's skin cells also. Didn't they say the sheath was was partially under MM and her comforter?

If that's where the sheath was found how could there not be any blood on it? Seems nearly impossible doesn't it?


Just an opinion.

What are you suggesting exactly?

 

[CKS]

What are you suggesting exactly?

MOO

That it would seem almost impossible that the ONLY DNA on the sheath were 20 skin cells by one person. That's it. All this talk about touch DNA and easy it spreads you'd think that it lying underneath a person and their comforter that there would be more skin cells. But what do I know.

All my opinion.

 

[Nila Aella]

Not impossible since it was never specified which body part was partially covering the sheath. For example, if the sheath was placed at the foot of the bed, she may have been covering it with her foot or calf. Also, it hasn't been specified where she was stabbed exactly. If the stab wound were in the neck region, it's possible that the blood didn't make contact with the sheath at her feet.

Just a scenario that would prove it possible that blood didn't contact the sheath. We just don't know enough information.

I don't remember where the sheath was found in reference to the body. Please link if it has been documented.

The sheath was face down and partially under both Madison’s body and the comforter on the bed.
Page 2 State

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/061623+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf

The sheath was placed button side down and partially under Ms. Mogen and the comforter.
page 2 Defense

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/062323+Objection+to+States+Motion+for+Protective+Order.pdf

BP exhibit to PCA
I also later noticed what appered to be a tan leather knife sheath laying on the bed next to Mogen's right side (when viewed from the door).
Page 2

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR29-22-2805/122922+Affidavit+-+Exhibit+A+-+Statement+of+Brett-Payne.pdf

Blaker exhibit to PCA
I was later advised by ISP investigators they located a tan leather knife sheath laying on the bed next to Mogen's rightside (when viewed from the door).
Page 17

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/search%20warrant%20for%20bryan%20kohberger%20apartment/ddb059f6cc8e24c1/full.pdf

The coroner did say where they were stabbed
Multiple
Fatal to chest, upper body
1:18

https://twitter.com/x/status/1593471888180891649

A family member of a victim has stated where. Don't have a link.

jmo

 

[Swansee]

Search warrant return on the car

The search warrant return showed used water bottles, gloves, boots, room key holder and stay information from a hotel, bandaid, receipt - one from 2018, change, wrappers.....
View attachment 558317

https://www.pacourts.us/Storage/media/pdfs/20230302/150347-dec.29,2022-searchwarrant(b.kohberger),inventory,exhibits.pdf

How "meticulously" had this guy been cleaning his car if it's still got old receipts from 2018 lying around in it?
Also, in the footage from the highway stop, in the only closeup shot, the inside of that car handle doesn't look to me like he's been deep cleaning every nook and cranny of his vehicle.
So after the murders he just kept his dirty car full of evidence for weeks and waited to get back to PA to deep clean it? But still left all kinds of ancient receipts, empty water bottles and used weed baggies in there ?
So much of the car stuff doesn't make sense to me. When is the post-murder deep cleaning supposed to have happened?
JMO.

 

[MassGuy]

How "meticulously" had this guy been cleaning his car if it's still got old receipts from 2018 lying around in it?
Also, in the footage from the highway stop, in the only closeup shot, the inside of that car handle doesn't look to me like he's been deep cleaning every nook and cranny of his vehicle.
So after the murders he just kept his dirty car full of evidence for weeks and waited to get back to PA to deep clean it? But still left all kinds of ancient receipts, empty water bottles and used weed baggies in there ?
So much of the car stuff doesn't make sense to me. When is the post-murder deep cleaning supposed to have happened?
JMO.

It's not like he had a dead body in the car. Any blood would likely be contained to the driver's seat area. Cleaning away potential blood evidence wouldn't involve throwing away receipts and other trash.

This information, if I'm not mistaken, came from a source close to the investigation. We have no idea if that characterization was true. There is likely video evidence or other documentation that describes what exactly the surveillance teams saw.

This guy was wearing latex gloves in unusual situations, throwing trash away in the neighbors trash can, and was apparently even wearing latex gloves when he was arrested. Someone taking extreme measures like that would be expected to have been concerned with blood evidence in his vehicle (despite my strong belief that he took precautions before the murders in order to minimize something like that).

 

[Jade]

MOO

That it would seem almost impossible that the ONLY DNA on the sheath were 20 skin cells by one person. That's it. All this talk about touch DNA and easy it spreads you'd think that it lying underneath a person and their comforter that there would be more skin cells. But what do I know.

All my opinion.

Not if the sheath was thoroughly cleaned and then handled with gloves.

Are you even aware where the DNA was on the sheath?

The location of the small amount is indicative of cleaning and then isolation of the object which then was not in active use against the victims or there would be more on the body of the sheath not just a tiny bit hidden in a missed spot.

The amount of natural shedding by individuals is variable and further effected by recent washing, pressure on the object, what the object is made of, ect.
Bedsheets, comforters may be freshly laundered, ect.

Links above

All imo

 

[Nila Aella]

That is not taking in to account BK cleaning the sheath then wearing gloves for all handling there on.

So it also stands reasonable that there were only that much after the cleaning of the sheath.

Cleaning the sheath has not been documented in this case.
jmo

From your link the study states that it is more probable to obtain a mixed DNA if there has been a secondary transfer.

There is no mixed DNA like we see in other cases where there has been secondary transfer.

Perhaps BK is one of your linked studies’ low shedders that naturally doesn’t leave much behind.

>>

Progress in DNA profiling techniques has made it possible to detect even the minimum amount of DNA at a crime scene (i.e., a complete DNA profile can be produced using as little as 100 pg of DNA, equivalent to only 15–20 human cells), leading to new defense strategies.

>>

Further studies clarified that on ‘shedder status’, not two but three categories of status should be used: high, intermediate, and low shedder



3.2. Main Findings

Based on their results, the authors concluded that secondary transfer should be considered a very unusual event.



4. Discussion

Based on these findings, DNA transfer remains challenging in forensic science, both in case evaluations and in court testimony. Considering the results of this review that show the problems related to indirect transfer, it is more probable to obtain a DNA mixture from a piece of evidence.


Indirect DNA Transfer and Forensic Implications: A Literature Review - PMC


All imo

Just want to point out that this paper is a literature review.
The main section is citing the literature reviewed.
The discussion follows.
Then the conclusion of the paper.

To be complete, each paper cited should be evaluated for findings (found at the cites at the bottom of the review). For example: one of your cites under main findings was a paper from 1999. This was before the LA case in 2012.
jmo

This literature reviews purpose:
This review aims to provide an up-to-date overview of the experimental work carried out focusing on indirect DNA transfer, analyzing each selected paper, the experimental method, the sampling technique, the extraction protocol, and the main results.

The conclusion was:
In conclusion, secondary transfer is a complex and dynamic phenomenon that can affect forensic investigation in various ways. It depends on multiple factors that interact with each other in unpredictable ways. It requires careful methods and protocols to detect and prevent it from compromising forensic evidence. It has serious implications for forensic practice and justice that need to be addressed with awareness and education. The concern of law enforcement and forensic practitioners regarding the risk associated with evidence contamination dates back to the inception of evidence analysis. However, newer forensic analysis techniques have magnified the potential impact of contamination on criminal investigations due to the sensitivity of current forensic DNA analysis. Proper collection, packaging, handling during transport, storage, analysis, as well as decontamination procedures can significantly reduce the potential for contamination. At the same time, the possibility that a transfer occurs during daily activities represents a very hazardous event that could compromise DNA analysis.
In this scenario, the principal take-home message of this review is related to the different flaws of the published experimental models: therefore, it is necessary to highlight the importance of making well-designed studies, diminishing variability, in order to establish a solid scientific base for this insidious topic. The definition of well-designed experimental studies and the use of the most modern extraction and amplification techniques will make it possible to fill those gaps in our knowledge, reinforcing the value of DNA evidence in criminal trials.

jmo

 

[Maat99]

MOO

That it would seem almost impossible that the ONLY DNA on the sheath were 20 skin cells by one person. That's it. All this talk about touch DNA and easy it spreads you'd think that it lying underneath a person and their comforter that there would be more skin cells. But what do I know.

All my opinion.

Just because it seems impossible to you doesn’t make it actually impossible.

 

[Nila Aella]

Not if the sheath was thoroughly cleaned and then handled with gloves.

Are you even aware where the DNA was on the sheath?

The location of the small amount is indicative of cleaning and then isolation of the object which then was not in active use against the victims or there would be more on the body of the sheath not just a tiny bit hidden in a missed spot.

LE has not said that it was the only DNA found on the sheath.

The amount of natural shedding by individuals is variable and further effected by recent washing, pressure on the object, what the object is made of, ect.
Bedsheets, comforters may be freshly laundered, ect.

Quite a few studies on Laundered items and transfer.
I suggest not reading about sheets and comforters.
lol
jmo

Links above

All imo

jmo

 

[girlhasnoname]

www.cps.gov.uk
PDF
guidance on dna charging - The Crown Prosecution Service

The Crown Prosecution has published a recent report on how DNA evidence is to be collected and used to prosecute suspects, all the agencies will now collaborate and decide what is to be collected, tested etc to be cost effective and have the best outcome for a successful prosecution,
Some background reading for those interested in how other countries use DNA forensically,
It helps that there are one set of standards and rules for the whole country

Interesting, there will be some legislation across the board for standards of use in the U.S. as well, I see it coming and fully support that.

IGG or FGG, however one refers to it, has been key in solving thousands of cold cases. Its use in current criminal cases when the DNA is not in CODIS is just another tool for LE to utilize. There is also Parabon, a company who can predict physical characteristics of the suspect such as race, eye and hair color based on genetic DNA markers with uncannily accurate results. There is no expectation of privacy for a criminal who leaves their DNA at the scene of the crime, none.

Used appropriately, I think these are beyond useful, and helpful tools and the only people who need to be worried are the people who have committed crimes.

I've seen many interviews with families who have finally had their question of WHO murdered my Mother, Wife, Husband, Daughter, Sister, etc. after many years and even decades answered. They all deserve these answers. Justice Delayed is Justice Denied.

JMO

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I found it interesting that LE recovers a shovel from BK's vehicle during the PA SW. How many of us (not counting construction workers or related fields) drive around with a shovel in our trunk?

In the middle of December? Every single person in a northern or upper midwestern state who values their life.

https://www.wkrg.com/news/avoid-getting-stuck-in-the-snow-with-these-winter-car-tools/

 

[girlhasnoname]

LE has not said that it was the only DNA found on the sheath.

Quite a few studies on Laundered items and transfer.
I suggest not reading about sheets and comforters.
lol
jmo


jmo

It actually was reported to be a single source DNA:

<snipped>

DNA evidence was found on the Ka-Bar knife sheath that came from a single source that was male.

After assuming the investigation from Idaho State Police, the FBI submitted the possible suspect DNA to publicly available genetic genealogy services to determine potential relatives of the suspect. The FBI then used common genealogical techniques to develop a family tree that led to Kohberger.

Bryan Kohberger's DNA matches evidence found at Idaho murder scene: Court docs

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I have to disagree with it being "just about everyone". I lived in Michigan and Iowa for a number of years, both of which have record breaking cold temps and snowfall. I never carried a shovel in my car. These States are well equipped to handle the roads during the winter. I think BK might have used it to bury something, maybe a knife?

I honestly have never heard of someone living in states like those without a winter survival kit in their car, but regardless, perhaps you lived in the city or in different terrain than the mountains of the Poconos. A shovel in the car is recommended in just about every emergency winter driving kit I've ever seen/read and speaking as someone who's spent all my life in snow states, I and everyone I know carry one in the trunk.

Pennsylvania No. 4 ‘most dangerous’ state for winter driving: study

Pennsylvania has been ranked as one of the most dangerous states to driving in during the winter by a recent report.

www.pennlive.com

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

How "meticulously" had this guy been cleaning his car if it's still got old receipts from 2018 lying around in it?
Also, in the footage from the highway stop, in the only closeup shot, the inside of that car handle doesn't look to me like he's been deep cleaning every nook and cranny of his vehicle.
So after the murders he just kept his dirty car full of evidence for weeks and waited to get back to PA to deep clean it? But still left all kinds of ancient receipts, empty water bottles and used weed baggies in there ?
So much of the car stuff doesn't make sense to me. When is the post-murder deep cleaning supposed to have happened?
JMO.

This entire case has seemed funky to me since the PCA release, but especially after the disassembled his car and investigated his apartment and found nothing connecting him to the murders. How does that happen if not by deep cleaning? I'm aware of the opinion that he somehow was able to wear something, line his car, line his apartment, line his shower, line his shower curtain, etc with something to avoid getting any evidence in any of those places (including the nooks and crannies of his car), but it just doesn't fly, given the pictures we've seen and the evidence we've heard about the mistakes he made on the night of the murders. It just doesn't line up. It doesn't make sense. Guilty or not, I still say the prosecution has a tough road.

MOO