4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #98

[Nila Aella]

It actually was reported to be a single source DNA:

<snipped>

DNA evidence was found on the Ka-Bar knife sheath that came from a single source that was male.

After assuming the investigation from Idaho State Police, the FBI submitted the possible suspect DNA to publicly available genetic genealogy services to determine potential relatives of the suspect. The FBI then used common genealogical techniques to develop a family tree that led to Kohberger.

Bryan Kohberger's DNA matches evidence found at Idaho murder scene: Court docs

Not getting into the single source discussion again.
Waiting for the details on the processing of the sample.
jmo

 

[mmeynstyn]

How "meticulously" had this guy been cleaning his car if it's still got old receipts from 2018 lying around in it?
Also, in the footage from the highway stop, in the only closeup shot, the inside of that car handle doesn't look to me like he's been deep cleaning every nook and cranny of his vehicle.
So after the murders he just kept his dirty car full of evidence for weeks and waited to get back to PA to deep clean it? But still left all kinds of ancient receipts, empty water bottles and used weed baggies in there ?
So much of the car stuff doesn't make sense to me. When is the post-murder deep cleaning supposed to have happened?
JMO.

How do we know BK didn't intentionally leave an old receipt in his car for, just that - reasonable doubt that it had been thoroughly cleaned? We just don't know. JMO

 

[MassGuy]

This entire case has seemed funky to me since the PCA release, but especially after the disassembled his car and investigated his apartment and found nothing connecting him to the murders. How does that happen if not by deep cleaning? I'm aware of the opinion that he somehow was able to wear something, line his car, line his apartment, line his shower, line his shower curtain, etc with something to avoid getting any evidence in any of those places (including the nooks and crannies of his car), but it just doesn't fly, given the pictures we've seen and the evidence we've heard about the mistakes he made on the night of the murders. It just doesn't line up. It doesn't make sense. Guilty or not, I still say the prosecution has a tough road.

MOO

He didn't have to do most of those things. He wears a Tvyvek suit and lines the seat with something like plastic. He drives to a remote location, where he takes off the suit, and puts anything else that might be bloody (like gloves) into a trash bag. Then he dumps the trash in a random dumpster.

He didn't have to line his apartment, shower, curtain, or any of that stuff. He'd have minimal blood on him because of the suit he may have worn, and it's not like he'd be dripping in blood.

None of that moves the needle for me at all. His DNA is at the scene, the car is similar to his, his alibi is absolutely damning, he'd been in the vicinity of the scene on multiple occasions at times you'd expect the killer to be scouting, he's cleaning his car, dumping trash in the neighbor's trash, bizarrely wearing latex gloves.

When it comes time for trial, I expect there to be a hell of a lot more (internet history, purchase records, etc). I'm not seeing a tough road, but a road that any prosecutor would love to be on.

 

[mmeynstyn]

When was the WSU surveillance examined?
And who examined/knew about it?

Clipped by me for Focus.

Not exactly sure about the when and who; however, ...he was id'd as a person of interest by Nov. 29 as stated herein: Search for white Hyundai was key in Bryan Kohberger case

Quote from article:
"Though police had realized Kohberger, with his 2015 Elantra, was a person of interest by Nov. 29, they issued a news release on Dec. 7 asking for the public's help in finding a white 2011-13 Elantra. They suggested such a vehicle had been near the home early on Nov. 13 and that any occupants "may have critical information to share regarding this case."
It wasn't clear why police issued that request, but law enforcement agencies sometimes use such public statements to throw off suspects and keep them from learning they're under suspicion. Tips poured in and investigators soon announced they were sifting through a pool of around 20,000 potential vehicles."

 

[LinasK]

Interesting, there will be some legislation across the board for standards of use in the U.S. as well, I see it coming and fully support that.

IGG or FGG, however one refers to it, has been key in solving thousands of cold cases. Its use in current criminal cases when the DNA is not in CODIS is just another tool for LE to utilize. There is also Parabon, a company who can predict physical characteristics of the suspect such as race, eye and hair color based on genetic DNA markers with uncannily accurate results. There is no expectation of privacy for a criminal who leaves their DNA at the scene of the crime, none.

Used appropriately, I think these are beyond useful, and helpful tools and the only people who need to be worried are the people who have committed crimes.

I've seen many interviews with families who have finally had their question of WHO murdered my Mother, Wife, Husband, Daughter, Sister, etc. after many years and even decades answered. They all deserve these answers. Justice Delayed is Justice Denied.

JMO

I can't thank this post enough!!!

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

He didn't have to do most of those things. He wears a Tvyvek suit and lines the seat with something like plastic. He drives to a remote location, where he takes off the suit, and puts anything else that might be bloody (like gloves) into a trash bag. Then he dumps the trash in a random dumpster.

He didn't have to line his apartment, shower, curtain, or any of that stuff. He'd have minimal blood on him because of the suit he may have worn, and it's not like he'd be dripping in blood.

None of that moves the needle for me at all. His DNA is at the scene, the car is similar to his, his alibi is absolutely damning, he'd been in the vicinity of the scene on multiple occasions at times you'd expect the killer to be scouting, he's cleaning his car, dumping trash in the neighbor's trash, bizarrely wearing latex gloves.

When it comes time for trial, I expect there to be a hell of a lot more (internet history, purchase records, etc). I'm not seeing a tough road, but a road that any prosecutor would love to be on.

I still don't think that jibes with the individual we've learned about. He's not that good.

MOO

 

[MassGuy]

I still don't think that jibes with the individual we've learned about. He's not that good.

MOO

I think it couldn’t possibly fit more perfectly. He’s angry because he’s never had the recognition he believes he deserves. He hates women because they don’t see him.

He’s studied this stuff, and wanted to show how smart he was.

All things considered, I think he was very good. The plan itself was insane, as you can’t stab 4 college student to death in a place like that and get away with it.

But his execution was pretty solid, not unlike Luigi Mangione.

Neither had a chance, but they were methodical. Of course they killed for very different reasons, but they had their plots completely gamed out.

They just didn’t plan for the unexpected.

 

[Rosydecember]

In the middle of December? Every single person in a northern or upper midwestern state who values their life.

https://www.wkrg.com/news/avoid-getting-stuck-in-the-snow-with-these-winter-car-tools/

I do too, as a female in Chicago. I’m not about to get stranded anywhere. You never know when it will snow and how much snow you will get lol

 

[Balthazar]

Can you please provide evidence to those numbers being "easily disputed." I have never, not once, encountered a case where the defense made a claim like that. What they have claimed in similar situations, is cross contamination, a lab error, or provided another reason why a suspect's DNA is in a particular location. They do not question the statistical match itself, unless it is low (we really don't see that these days).

That number is routinely called The Prosecutor's Fallacy (in regards to DNA).

DNA Test Results: Probability vs. Fallacy – North Carolina Criminal Law

The State of North Carolina goes to trial against Donnie Defendant, who is alleged to be the infamous “Tarheel State Killer” and charged with committing a

nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu

I think these articles will be helpful in starting to understand why the interpretation of that number is completely and totally wrong.

This article explains Baye's Theorem:

Ghosts, Spam Emails and Bayes’ Theorem

Let’s set the scene. You’re driving alone at night along an empty road through the woods. It’s rumoured to be haunted, but you’re not particularly scared – you don’t believe in ghosts anyway.…

tomrocksmaths.com

This article explains the Prosecutor's Fallacy:

The Prosecutor’s Fallacy

Picture the scene. You’re a homicide detective on one of those ‘CSI-type’ shows. You’ve found a DNA sample left at the crime scene, but no other evidence to try and find your suspect. You decide to…

tomrocksmaths.com

However, those are just the beginning. I would recommend reading the 4 classic books by Edward R Tufte. These are fundamental to detecting and understanding statistical lies. These books are well-written and eye-opening. You will NEVER look at numbers and graphs the same way again. IF you are an attorney, you especially need those books. I think you will find them incredibly helpful and use them frequently, not just for work, but for all aspects of life. They are that important and life-changing.

Just because it seems impossible to you doesn’t make it actually impossible.

The sheath was made of leather. There should have been bovine DNA on it. Humans and bovines share 80% of their DNA. How would someone clean bovine DNA off leather without any evidence of cleaning solvents? Also, it is not believable that this hand made item had no DNA from the person who cut, sewed and finished it, not under the threads, in the seams, under either part of the snap - obviously something is very, very wrong.

 

[Balthazar]

This entire case has seemed funky to me since the PCA release, but especially after the disassembled his car and investigated his apartment and found nothing connecting him to the murders. How does that happen if not by deep cleaning? I'm aware of the opinion that he somehow was able to wear something, line his car, line his apartment, line his shower, line his shower curtain, etc with something to avoid getting any evidence in any of those places (including the nooks and crannies of his car), but it just doesn't fly, given the pictures we've seen and the evidence we've heard about the mistakes he made on the night of the murders. It just doesn't line up. It doesn't make sense. Guilty or not, I still say the prosecution has a tough road.

MOO

There was nothing in the drain of his shower at this apartment or his sinks. Nothing in his apartment, on his bed linens, nothing in his car, office or parents home. It looks like the Federal Grand Jury was likely investigating a RICO case and despite 71 subpoenas, they found nothing with which to indict BK. So it is most likely a failed RICO case.

Now the defense is going after the IGG. I recall AT writing something to the effect that BK has good reason to be suspicious of the IGG. AT is trying to get the judge to rule that the IGG hearing can be public. IMO, something is very wrong with the IGG. BK had his DNA done before all of this mess and discussed it with a neighbor in August 2022.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271252642.html

I don't know what is wrong, but, it seems to me that AT would not waste time on this unless something was seriously wrong.

 

[MoominMama222]

I lived in Iowa in both rural and urban areas for 26 years and never kept a shovel in my car. BK wasn't in a rural environment, and I don't see a good reason for him to have a shovel in his car. And of course, it matters what kind of shovel it was. MOO

 

[MassGuy]

That number is routinely called The Prosecutor's Fallacy (in regards to DNA).

DNA Test Results: Probability vs. Fallacy – North Carolina Criminal Law

The State of North Carolina goes to trial against Donnie Defendant, who is alleged to be the infamous “Tarheel State Killer” and charged with committing a

nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu

I think these articles will be helpful in starting to understand why the interpretation of that number is completely and totally wrong.

This article explains Baye's Theorem:

Ghosts, Spam Emails and Bayes’ Theorem

Let’s set the scene. You’re driving alone at night along an empty road through the woods. It’s rumoured to be haunted, but you’re not particularly scared – you don’t believe in ghosts anyway.…

tomrocksmaths.com

This article explains the Prosecutor's Fallacy:

The Prosecutor’s Fallacy

Picture the scene. You’re a homicide detective on one of those ‘CSI-type’ shows. You’ve found a DNA sample left at the crime scene, but no other evidence to try and find your suspect. You decide to…

tomrocksmaths.com

However, those are just the beginning. I would recommend reading the 4 classic books by Edward R Tufte. These are fundamental to detecting and understanding statistical lies. These books are well-written and eye-opening. You will NEVER look at numbers and graphs the same way again. IF you are an attorney, you especially need those books. I think you will find them incredibly helpful and use them frequently, not just for work, but for all aspects of life. They are that important and life-changing.

The sheath was made of leather. There should have been bovine DNA on it. Humans and bovines share 80% of their DNA. How would someone clean bovine DNA off leather without any evidence of cleaning solvents? Also, it is not believable that this hand made item had no DNA from the person who cut, sewed and finished it, not under the threads, in the seams, under either part of the snap - obviously something is very, very wrong.

I honestly don't even know where to begin here. Any DNA from someone in the factory would be long gone by the time Kohberger possessed it; touch DNA doesn't last very long, unless an item is kept in optimal conditions. That's even assuming this was handmade in the first place.

Kohberger's DNA had no business being there. In some alternate universe where it was somehow transferred, then it should be extremely easy to prove his alibi. His alibi is the second most damning thing here (phone evidence, car video) and confirms the DNA accuracy.

A processed leather sheath isn't going to give you animal DNA results. I refuse to believe that's a thing.

 

[MassGuy]

There was nothing in the drain of his shower at this apartment or his sinks. Nothing in his apartment, on his bed linens, nothing in his car, office or parents home. It looks like the Federal Grand Jury was likely investigating a RICO case and despite 71 subpoenas, they found nothing with which to indict BK. So it is most likely a failed RICO case.

Now the defense is going after the IGG. I recall AT writing something to the effect that BK has good reason to be suspicious of the IGG. AT is trying to get the judge to rule that the IGG hearing can be public. IMO, something is very wrong with the IGG. BK had his DNA done before all of this mess and discussed it with a neighbor in August 2022.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271252642.html

I don't know what is wrong, but, it seems to me that AT would not waste time on this unless something was seriously wrong.

You would expect absolutely no blood evidence in any of those places.

Any good defense attorney would go after the IGG here, and yes, they would absolutely be willing to waste time on that. If there was any hope at all, they'd try it. It's something you see in major cases like this when the defendant has very good attorneys. None of that is an indication something was seriously wrong, and I have every expectation that nothing will come of it. IGG is the wave of the future, and it's been used in countless murder cases.

 

[Nila Aella]

Clipped by me for Focus.

Not exactly sure about the when and who; however, ...he was id'd as a person of interest by Nov. 29 as stated herein: Search for white Hyundai was key in Bryan Kohberger case
Quote from article:
"Though police had realized Kohberger, with his 2015 Elantra, was a person of interest by Nov. 29, they issued a news release on Dec. 7 asking for the public's help in finding a white 2011-13 Elantra. They suggested such a vehicle had been near the home early on Nov. 13 and that any occupants "may have critical information to share regarding this case."
It wasn't clear why police issued that request, but law enforcement agencies sometimes use such public statements to throw off suspects and keep them from learning they're under suspicion. Tips poured in and investigators soon announced they were sifting through a pool of around 20,000 potential vehicles."

This article is Jan 6 2023
Many people who read the PCA exhibit, including the Judge, thought that Nov 29th was when MPD identified BK.
Until BP testified.
BP, the lead investigator, did not know about the Nov 29th Elantra sighting in Pullman until Dec 20.
The PCA exhibit is not chronological.

The IGG tip with BKs name was Dec 19th.

jmo

 

[MassGuy]

This article is Jan 6 2023
Many people who read the PCA exhibit, including the Judge, thought that Nov 29th was when MPD identified BK.
Until BP testified.
BP, the lead investigator, did not know about the Nov 29th Elantra sighting in Pullman until Dec 20.
The PCA exhibit is not chronological.

The IGG tip with BKs name was Dec 19th.

jmo

Two independent lines of inquiry, both leading to the same person. Gotta love it.

 

[schooling]

How "meticulously" had this guy been cleaning his car if it's still got old receipts from 2018 lying around in it?
Also, in the footage from the highway stop, in the only closeup shot, the inside of that car handle doesn't look to me like he's been deep cleaning every nook and cranny of his vehicle.
So after the murders he just kept his dirty car full of evidence for weeks and waited to get back to PA to deep clean it? But still left all kinds of ancient receipts, empty water bottles and used weed baggies in there ?
So much of the car stuff doesn't make sense to me. When is the post-murder deep cleaning supposed to have happened?
JMO.

He had months to prepare. He walked into a house and committed a quadruple murder, IMO. When you consider the kind of person who would do something like that....

He probably changed outside, IMO. He probably properly wrapped his bloody clothing and bagged it (maybe even that shower curtain missing from his apartment shower), IMO. He probably wrapped any part of his car he'd come into contact with in plastic. I bet he even noticed his dirty door handles and figured he leave it that way in case he got stopped the next day. By putting plastic over it so he could say "my car hasn't been cleaned in months!" Again, JMO

He had months to plan. From the moment he bought the knife (as reported, and which I agree with, IMO) to the moment he committed the murders. Maybe even longer than that.

The lack of blood doesn't surprise me at all. I think he was well versed in that. I think he was way too overconfident about his technical capabilities (that certificate is practically worthless and the curriculum is outdated, IMO) and that's going to end up taking a 90% case to a 99% case.

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Clipped by me for Focus.

Not exactly sure about the when and who; however, ...he was id'd as a person of interest by Nov. 29 as stated herein: Search for white Hyundai was key in Bryan Kohberger case

Quote from article:
"Though police had realized Kohberger, with his 2015 Elantra, was a person of interest by Nov. 29, they issued a news release on Dec. 7 asking for the public's help in finding a white 2011-13 Elantra. They suggested such a vehicle had been near the home early on Nov. 13 and that any occupants "may have critical information to share regarding this case."
It wasn't clear why police issued that request, but law enforcement agencies sometimes use such public statements to throw off suspects and keep them from learning they're under suspicion. Tips poured in and investigators soon announced they were sifting through a pool of around 20,000 potential vehicles."

Absolutely agree, LE was hunting a quadruple mass murderer. They are not likely to specifically state the exact year of the Elantra in an effort to keep the suspect from fleeing the area, committing another similar crime or even carrying out self harm. It happens often in cases and I certainly can understand the logic around it. LE is allowed to use this tactic.

JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

This entire case has seemed funky to me since the PCA release, but especially after the disassembled his car and investigated his apartment and found nothing connecting him to the murders. How does that happen if not by deep cleaning? I'm aware of the opinion that he somehow was able to wear something, line his car, line his apartment, line his shower, line his shower curtain, etc with something to avoid getting any evidence in any of those places (including the nooks and crannies of his car), but it just doesn't fly, given the pictures we've seen and the evidence we've heard about the mistakes he made on the night of the murders. It just doesn't line up. It doesn't make sense. Guilty or not, I still say the prosecution has a tough road.

MOO

I agree. But we haven't had the discovery yet and also BK, if guilty, had the benefit of a good amount of time where nobody was watching him or suspecting him. Plus crime and forensics was his specialist interest, literally his academic study, so he would have knowledge about things the rest of us don't.

 

[jepop]

(Snipped for focus)

The sheath was made of leather. There should have been bovine DNA on it. Humans and bovines share 80% of their DNA. How would someone clean bovine DNA off leather without any evidence of cleaning solvents? Also, it is not believable that this hand made item had no DNA from the person who cut, sewed and finished it, not under the threads, in the seams, under either part of the snap - obviously something is very, very wrong.

SBMFF

"obviously something is very, very wrong."

What are you talking about?. We only read about the snap button DNA in court docs because it is the relevant subject of the motions. The relevant motions are not going to detail any tests done to confirm victim DNA on the sheathe ( from blood I would think) or sheathe maker DNA (if identified and eliminated at all). As for bovine DNA, the sheathe is leather so yeah there's probably bovine DNA present but why would that be tested for? Are you implying the sheathe isn't leather?? Really?

Quite frankly you seem to be stating that no victim dna, sheathe maker DNA( ??) and bovine DNA was found on the sheathe. No. This is simply something we don't know at this time. There's nothing suspicious here, why would motions about suspect DNA go into detail about victim/bovine DNA. It's simply irrelevant to the subject of the motions. Moo

What we don't have is the court record saying anything about the suspect DNA being the only DNA found on the sheathe. Victim DNA via blood may very well have been found on it. To say no other DNA found, no bovine (why relevant?) is just something made up or imagined by you. Sorry, but your post reads as if stating a fact, rather than a baseless 'what if' triggered by an OP's "what if" upthread. This is misinformation if you don't clarify you are speculating based on a baseless 'what if'. Jmo

 

[Jade]

How "meticulously" had this guy been cleaning his car if it's still got old receipts from 2018 lying around in it?
Also, in the footage from the highway stop, in the only closeup shot, the inside of that car handle doesn't look to me like he's been deep cleaning every nook and cranny of his vehicle.
So after the murders he just kept his dirty car full of evidence for weeks and waited to get back to PA to deep clean it? But still left all kinds of ancient receipts, empty water bottles and used weed baggies in there ?
So much of the car stuff doesn't make sense to me. When is the post-murder deep cleaning supposed to have happened?
JMO.

I am in the jump suit, tarp, no clean up car camp.

I think BK is both persnickety and lazy.

Quick strip off, run over himself with Wet Wipes, roll up the tarp, stuff into a couple of contractor bags and off he goes.

And no way clean up the car so the techs can easily comb through and chance having them proclaiming there was no DNA except for yours and the VICTIMS!

The techs are human searching for down to the most minuscule of evidence. It may be there but human limitations and environmental factors have to be overcome. Maybe when the robots take over perfection in such matters can be expected.

BK was strong and well conditioned. He was in complete, cold blooded control, imo.

The witness did not describe bloody man; although it was dark.

We know that description of the crime scene was not like, for example, the murder of Jasmine Pace where the attack was frenzied with over 60 stabs and slashes and the apartment said to have blood covered walls and surfaces. The four, from descriptions, bled out in place without blood splatter covering walls throughout the house.

So I expect BK didn’t have a whole lot on him. His strength, control and method of attack, overpowering easily, kept the blood in situ, imo.

All imo