4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #98

[Nila Aella]

I am in the jump suit, tarp, no clean up car camp.

I think BK is both persnickety and lazy.

Quick strip off, run over himself with Wet Wipes, roll up the tarp, stuff into a couple of contractor bags and off he goes.

And no way clean up the car so the techs can easily comb through and chance having them proclaiming there was no DNA except for yours and the VICTIMS!

The techs are human searching for down to the most minuscule of evidence. It may be there but human limitations and environmental factors have to be overcome. Maybe when the robots take over perfection in such matters can be expected.

BK was strong and well conditioned. He was in complete, cold blooded control, imo.

The witness did not describe bloody man; although it was dark.

We know that description of the crime scene was not like, for example, the murder of Jasmine Pace where the attack was frenzied with over 60 stabs and slashes and the apartment said to have blood covered walls and surfaces. The four, from descriptions, bled out in place without blood splatter covering walls throughout the house.

So I expect BK didn’t have a whole lot on him. His strength, control and method of attack, overpowering easily, kept the blood in situ, imo.

All imo

Blaker affidavit Exhibit to PCA Apartment Warrant

The King Road Residence contained a significant amount of blood from the victims including spatter and castoff (bloodstain pattern resulting from blood drops released from an objectdue to its motion) which, based on my training, makes it likely that this evidence was transferred to Kohberger's person, clothing, or shoes.
Page 19

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/search%20warrant%20for%20bryan%20kohberger%20apartment/ddb059f6cc8e24c1/full.pdf

States Objection to MTC and Sanctions:
For Exhibit S-12, the State disclosed an expert on crime scene reconstruction and bloodstain pattern analysis.
Page 8

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/2024/123124-Objection-Defendants-MtC-ICR16b7-Material-Sanctions.pdf

jmo

 

[mrjitty]

Just to note, if you are arguing for touch transfer, then you are implicitly accepting it is BKs DNA. I get that the defence can argue in the alternative, but I think in the mind of a juror, it's going to be hard to argue the prosecution is involved in any fallacy when they say it is BKs DNA.

The defence in practice accepts this. For instance, if it's not a match, then the whole question of an unconstitutional IGG search does not arise.

 

[Jade]

Cleaning the sheath has not been documented in this case.
jmo

Just want to point out that this paper is a literature review.
The main section is citing the literature reviewed.
The discussion follows.
Then the conclusion of the paper.

To be complete, each paper cited should be evaluated for findings (found at the cites at the bottom of the review). For example: one of your cites under main findings was a paper from 1999. This was before the LA case in 2012.
jmo

This literature reviews purpose:
This review aims to provide an up-to-date overview of the experimental work carried out focusing on indirect DNA transfer, analyzing each selected paper, the experimental method, the sampling technique, the extraction protocol, and the main results.

The conclusion was:
In conclusion, secondary transfer is a complex and dynamic phenomenon that can affect forensic investigation in various ways. It depends on multiple factors that interact with each other in unpredictable ways. It requires careful methods and protocols to detect and prevent it from compromising forensic evidence. It has serious implications for forensic practice and justice that need to be addressed with awareness and education. The concern of law enforcement and forensic practitioners regarding the risk associated with evidence contamination dates back to the inception of evidence analysis. However, newer forensic analysis techniques have magnified the potential impact of contamination on criminal investigations due to the sensitivity of current forensic DNA analysis. Proper collection, packaging, handling during transport, storage, analysis, as well as decontamination procedures can significantly reduce the potential for contamination. At the same time, the possibility that a transfer occurs during daily activities represents a very hazardous event that could compromise DNA analysis.
In this scenario, the principal take-home message of this review is related to the different flaws of the published experimental models: therefore, it is necessary to highlight the importance of making well-designed studies, diminishing variability, in order to establish a solid scientific base for this insidious topic. The definition of well-designed experimental studies and the use of the most modern extraction and amplification techniques will make it possible to fill those gaps in our knowledge, reinforcing the value of DNA evidence in criminal trials.

jmo

How would what BK did previously regarding cleaning the sheath be documented?

How do you prove a wipe down except for the lack of expected presences?

Wiping it down with a clean lint free cloth is not going to leave trace, imo.

Has it been said there was other DNA, please link, otherwise on WS we are to stick to facts known from msm sources.

If we speculate opposing every known fact we are just going in circles with improbable objections, imo.

LE has not said that it was the only DNA found on the sheath.

Quite a few studies on Laundered items and transfer.
I suggest not reading about sheets and comforters.
lol
jmo


jmo

I have already read about sheets and comforters or I wouldn’t have posted that their material and whether they have recently been laundered and how are factors.

That was from the other posters links not mine I just pointed out that his link was counter to his assertions so you might go back to that source to reply as to the inadequacy of the link.

The most important quote I got from the link OP provided was that the proposed scenario of single source transfer was to be considered very unusual.

All imo

 

[Jade]

Blaker affidavit Exhibit to PCA Apartment Warrant

The King Road Residence contained a significant amount of blood from the victims including spatter and castoff (bloodstain pattern resulting from blood drops released from an objectdue to its motion) which, based on my training, makes it likely that this evidence was transferred to Kohberger's person, clothing, or shoes.
Page 19

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/search%20warrant%20for%20bryan%20kohberger%20apartment/ddb059f6cc8e24c1/full.pdf

States Objection to MTC and Sanctions:
For Exhibit S-12, the State disclosed an expert on crime scene reconstruction and bloodstain pattern analysis.
Page 8

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/isc.coi/CR01-24-31665/2024/123124-Objection-Defendants-MtC-ICR16b7-Material-Sanctions.pdf

jmo

Of course it’s there that’s why a disposal method was predicated and premeditated imo.

I was just making comparison where more than a significant amount was in a allegedly spontaneous crime of passion as opposed to a premeditated in the wee hours surprise attack of guileless victims by a mentally prepared BK who took measures to avoid detection.

All imo

 

[MassGuy]

Of course it’s there that’s why a disposal method was predicated and premeditated imo.

I was just making comparison where more than a significant amount was in a allegedly spontaneous crime of passion as opposed to a premeditated in the wee hours surprise attack of guileless victims by a mentally prepared BK who took measures to avoid detection.

All imo

Yes, there is no comparison in regards to what you would see (blood evidence) in a spontaneous crime, vs a premeditated one.

Look at what he studied. Look at what he showed an interest in (criminals and their crimes). Look at what someone with his psychology would be trying to achieve.

He's smarter than the cops. He's smarter than everyone.

He turned his phone off for a reason. No blood was found in his car for a reason. He thought he was Dexter or something.

The fact that Dexter should have been caught every single time, notwithstanding.

 

[Tapeartree]

Yes, there is no comparison in regards to what you would see (blood evidence) in a spontaneous crime, vs a premeditated one.

Look at what he studied. Look at what he showed an interest in (criminals and their crimes). Look at what someone with his psychology would be trying to achieve.

He's smarter than the cops. He's smarter than everyone.

He turned his phone off for a reason. No blood was found in his car for a reason. He thought he was Dexter or something.

The fact that Dexter should have been caught every single time, notwithstanding.

I suppose he was going to prove to himself he wouldn't get caught like Ted Bundy or Danny Rollings did after killing unsuspecting college students.

Must have been a blow to his infated ego when he realized he made mistakes.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

 

[mmeynstyn]

Just to note, if you are arguing for touch transfer, then you are implicitly accepting it is BKs DNA. I get that the defence can argue in the alternative, but I think in the mind of a juror, it's going to be hard to argue the prosecution is involved in any fallacy when they say it is BKs DNA.

The defence in practice accepts this. For instance, if it's not a match, then the whole question of an unconstitutional IGG search does not arise.

Yes! That is my thoughts also. Why are they pushing so hard on the IGG? Because the D is doing anything to get that DNA thrown out. They know it puts him at the scene of the crime is a very, very bad way - not like on a light switch or door handle. Also IMO, privacy is a huge thing in this country. All you need is one juror to say: "Whaat, they used a method that was an invasion of his families' privacy - Whaaat?" IMO, that is also why they want as much of this IGG stuff to be released before trial.

 

[mmeynstyn]

I am in the jump suit, tarp, no clean up car camp.

I think BK is both persnickety and lazy.

Quick strip off, run over himself with Wet Wipes, roll up the tarp, stuff into a couple of contractor bags and off he goes.

And no way clean up the car so the techs can easily comb through and chance having them proclaiming there was no DNA except for yours and the VICTIMS!

The techs are human searching for down to the most minuscule of evidence. It may be there but human limitations and environmental factors have to be overcome. Maybe when the robots take over perfection in such matters can be expected.

BK was strong and well conditioned. He was in complete, cold blooded control, imo.

The witness did not describe bloody man; although it was dark.

We know that description of the crime scene was not like, for example, the murder of Jasmine Pace where the attack was frenzied with over 60 stabs and slashes and the apartment said to have blood covered walls and surfaces. The four, from descriptions, bled out in place without blood splatter covering walls throughout the house.

So I expect BK didn’t have a whole lot on him. His strength, control and method of attack, overpowering easily, kept the blood in situ, imo.

All im0

I am in the same camp with you. IMO he didn't even need a tarp...I think he was wearing something like this: Plus he had a mask on limiting the description to the only remaining distinct feature: his eye brow area. Removal of this, then gloves before he got in his car, IMO, voila. No need to even clean the interior of the car.

 

[Nila Aella]

How would what BK did previously regarding cleaning the sheath be documented?
How do you prove a wipe down except for the lack of expected presences?

In the Court documents or through testimony by an expert discussing the processing of the sample, any other findings, and the results of all the evidence collected in this case.
JMO

Wiping it down with a clean lint free cloth is not going to leave trace, imo.

Not sure.
MOO

Has it been said there was other DNA, please link, otherwise on WS we are to stick to facts known from msm sources.

Has it been said there wasn't?
Finding facts in MSM:
MSM has reported opinion/speculation that is often times not true and not supported by the court record.
I prefer the court record, which as AFAIK is allowed here.

IMO JMO MOO

If we speculate opposing every known fact we are just going in circles with improbable objections, imo.

By having this dialogue everyone can form their own opinion.
MOO

I have already read about sheets and comforters or I wouldn’t have posted that their material and whether they have recently been laundered and how are factors.

Then you will know what is found on freshly laundered sheets.
MOO

That was from the other posters links not mine I just pointed out that his link was counter to his assertions so you might go back to that source to reply as to the inadequacy of the link.

I thought it was a great link listing all the papers that were reviewed (no all papers available for review). Anyone interested could have access to multiple papers. The entire paper, the information in it, the date it was published and the validity of the actual method researched.
IMO

The most important quote I got from the link OP provided was that the proposed scenario of single source transfer was to be considered very unusual.

All imo

What I said before regarding this quote stands:

In the first paper published about secondary transfer, Ladd et al. [13] analyzed two possible ways to obtain a secondary transfer: skin to skin to object (handshaking) and skin to object to skin. Based on their results, the authors concluded that secondary transfer should be considered a very unusual event.

13.Ladd C., Adamowicz M.S., Bourke M.T., Scherczinger C.A., Lee H.C. A Systematic Analysis of Secondary DNA Transfer. J. Forensic Sci. 1999;44:1270–1272. doi: 10.1520/JFS14599J. [DOI] [PubMed]

J FOrensic Science 1999 Nov;44(6):1270-2.

This is a quote from a 1999 paper that occurred before the LA case in 2012.
Picking one result/quote from a paper in 1999.
There have been many papers since this, many after the LA case in 2012 that have continued to explore transfer DNA.
JMO

 

[LinasK]

Yes! That is my thoughts also. Why are they pushing so hard on the IGG? Because the D is doing anything to get that DNA thrown out. They know it puts him at the scene of the crime is a very, very bad way - not like on a light switch or door handle. Also IMO, privacy is a huge thing in this country. All you need is one juror to say: "Whaat, they used a method that was an invasion of his families' privacy - Whaaat?" IMO, that is also why they want as much of this IGG stuff to be released before trial.

I fail to see how it's an invasion of his family's privacy when someone in the family willingly gave their DNA to the database in the first place, and secondly only he was targeted as a suspect. They ruled out every other member of his family. By now Genetic Genealogy is common knowledge. Investigator CeCe Moore even did a TV series on it. The Genetic Detective.

 

[Balthazar]

I honestly don't even know where to begin here. Any DNA from someone in the factory would be long gone by the time Kohberger possessed it; touch DNA doesn't last very long, unless an item is kept in optimal conditions. That's even assuming this was handmade in the first place.

Touch DNA lasts 2 to 6 weeks or longer indoors.

IF the sheath in this case is a real KBar brand sheath, it was handmade in Mexico and put into a cellophane bag. Crime scene evidence, such as items suspected to have DNA on them are usually put in cellophane bags at the crime scene to preserve the DNA. As to the sheath, I actually researched what company makes them and how they are made. There is no way the sheath would not have human touch DNA on it from the manufacturing process, especially wrapped in cellophane after being made and stored in a box prior to sale.

<modsnip- no link>

As far as bovine skin cells on the sheath - it is cow leather. It is 100% composed of skin cells. Later in this post I will explain how it is easily detectable.

Kohberger's DNA had no business being there. In some alternate universe where it was somehow transferred, then it should be extremely easy to prove his alibi. His alibi is the second most damning thing here (phone evidence, car video) and confirms the DNA accuracy.

Sy Ray would say you are wrong about the phone evidence. By their own admission via BP, the MPD has NO evidence that was BK or even BK's car that night. There are zero photos or video of the license plate and zero photos or video of BK in the car. Please see BP's testimony from the May hearing and Sy Ray's testimony from same.

A processed leather sheath isn't going to give you animal DNA results. I refuse to believe that's a thing.

Of course it contains DNA. Leather is 100% composed of animal skin cells. Anything made of real leather contains DNA. Even historic leather from hundreds of years ago contains DNA.

" The results indicate that nuclear DNA is reduced to sub-amplifiable levels as a result of the tanning baths, whereas amplifiable mitochondrial DNA survives the complete process. Our results suggest that old and archaeological bovine leather may represent a useful source of genetic information, although this information will most likely be limited to that which can be gained from mitochondrial DNA.."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440306001750#:~:text=Our%20results%20suggest%20that%20old,be%20gained%20from%20mitochondrial%20DNA.

 

[Deleted member 718]

D

Post in thread '4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90'

Nov 2, 2023

Has there been any mention of the defense requesting independent testing of the sheath DNA?

• Deleted member 718

• 

• Nov 2, 2023

• #248

Has there been any mention of the defense requesting independent testing of the sheath DNA?

Quoting myself here. Have there been any reports of independent DNA testing? I remember how important that was in the Kelsey Berreth case tia

 

[LinasK]

I fail to see how it's an invasion of his family's privacy when someone in the family willingly gave their DNA to the database in the first place, and secondly only he was targeted as a suspect. They ruled out every other member of his family. By now Genetic Genealogy is common knowledge. Investigator CeCe Moore even did a TV series on it. The Genetic Detective.

IGG is just an investigative tool used to identify potential suspects. They always get a fresh DNA match to corroborate/verify that it is the actual suspect. Kohlberger left his DNA on the murder weapon (the knife sheath) at the scene of the crime. That's solid evidence. Doesn't matter if Bovine DNA happened to be found on it from the manufacturer. There's no good reason for his DNA to be on it, and no one planted it in that house.

 

[Karin1974]

IMO - I’m looking forward to the trial, personally, I expect it to be a slam dunk for the prosecution. MOO

 

[wendy44]

D

Post in thread '4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #90'

Nov 2, 2023

Has there been any mention of the defense requesting independent testing of the sheath DNA?

• Deleted member 718

• 

• Nov 2, 2023
• #248

Has there been any mention of the defense requesting independent testing of the sheath DNA?

Quoting myself here. Have there been any reports of independent DNA testing? I remember how important that was in the Kelsey Berreth case tia

I was going to ask this as well after the many pages of discussion about the untested samples. The defense can file a motion to the court requesting they be tested. I don't recall that they've done that--does anyone remember?

They will likely do what is their jobs to do--ask law enforcement in court if other dna was found and tested and if not why not because they want to create reasonable doubt. I don't think they actually want it tested though because it would lead nowhere and then they couldn't use it to create reasonable doubt. If they believed it was actually exculpatory they would request it be tested and then conduct their own IGG to track down the owners of it. JMO

As for the prosecution withholding the work product of the IGG (not directed to you, gliving, just a general comment) remember it was the FBI, not the prosecution. The FBI considered it an investigative tool and not subject to discovery.

 

[wendy44]

Now the defense is going after the IGG. I recall AT writing something to the effect that BK has good reason to be suspicious of the IGG. AT is trying to get the judge to rule that the IGG hearing can be public. IMO, something is very wrong with the IGG. BK had his DNA done before all of this mess and discussed it with a neighbor in August 2022.

https://www.idahostatesman.com/news/local/crime/article271252642.html

I don't know what is wrong, but, it seems to me that AT would not waste time on this unless something was seriously wrong.

Snipped by me--what could be very wrong with the IGG? Since you mentioned BK having his dna done--are you saying something is wrong with the dna profile leading to BK? The proof is in the match. If the IGG is wrong, it gets thrown out as a bad tip and doesn't give the defense an avenue to pursue 4th amendment. The last thing the defense wants right now is for the IGG to be wrong. Regardless, they are fully able to conduct their own IGG and probably have. JMO

 

[girlhasnoname]

IMO - I’m looking forward to the trial, personally, I expect it to be a slam dunk for the prosecution. MOO

I try never to say slam dunk in any case as not to jinx it <rogue or fellow 'misfit juror>, but I find it more than highly probable that the P has BK dead to rights and the jury will be able to see that from the totality of the evidence against him. We'll have a much better idea of things after the upcoming hearings next week. IMO

BK needs to prepare for prison life and practice for his role as the go to inmate prison lawyer. He would get the much wanted attention he so desperately seeks, and could talk about how smart he is all day and night long.

MOO

 

[Jade]

Unless BK had a stint as a worker in a sheath factory his goose is cooked.

It is unusual, unlikely, illogical, contrary to science to imagine a single secondary transfer of DNA deep in the snap of a obviously well wiped by the perp knife sheath next to a victim killed by: a knife. The DNA of the accused; no surprise.

Thank goodness for the thorough tech professionals for their help in bringing justice for the 4.

All imo

 

[mrjitty]

Snipped by me--what could be very wrong with the IGG? Since you mentioned BK having his dna done--are you saying something is wrong with the dna profile leading to BK? The proof is in the match. If the IGG is wrong, it gets thrown out as a bad tip and doesn't give the defense an avenue to pursue 4th amendment. The last thing the defense wants right now is for the IGG to be wrong. Regardless, they are fully able to conduct their own IGG and probably have. JMO

Right

The defences are constitutional ones.

1. Should the prosecution have had to disclose IGG in the probable cause process?
2. Should IGG be allowed at all?

Question 1 will be determined pretrial.

I expect question 2 to be kicked for touch and will eventually make it's way to the Supreme Court in some case some day.

The thing is, the IGG challenge implicitly accepts that it is his DNA. it rules out any contamination idea.

As for transfer ideas - good luck. Maybe you'd have a shot if the DNA had matched a little old lady with a tight alibi. But not 'stargazer"

I just don't feel the constitutional heat there. This was good police work.

I do agree maybe IGG should be disclosed in the probable cause phase - simply because it increases the suspicion.

MOO