Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #204

[Bergmann]

and to me that face, body and apparel equal RA.

But the witnesses that were there beg to differ based on their testimony which describes someone very different to RA.

It’s a puzzle, but not one that IMO have thus far demonstrated that LE and prosecution understand and have solved, let alone proved - JMO

 

[Deleted member 229974]

Totally agree.

I was expecting a lot more from the prosecution to be honest.

They can only work with what they’ve got. IMO

 

[Elley Mae]

According to Carbaugh’s account, the man’s clothes were bloody and muddy, with blood visible on his lower legs, feet and ankles. The rest of him was muddy—as if he had fallen down a hill or into a muddy creek.

“I’m going to label him ‘Bridge Guy’ because that’s what I know him by,” she said. She added that she recognized the image later released to the public of the man sought in connection with the girls’ deaths. She saw it on the news.

Carbaugh waited three weeks to contact police. She blamed her inaction on trauma and panic, telling the court she was “overthinking” and “having a moment.”

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-combative-testimony-from-another-bridge-guy-witness/

Baldwin also took issue with her description of “Bridge Guy’s” coat color, saying Carbaugh didn’t say his coat was blue until after the infamous photo was released to the public. Baldwin said she called it tan while she recalled it was more brown—something she explained by reminding the court that “Bridge Guy” was covered in mud and blood.

…

This is the only witness i need to hear from.

Jmo

 

[Deleted member 296739]

So the first guesses would be mental illness or substance abuse?

What if you add in the facts that he was actually on the bridge dressed just like the guy in the BG video, at the same time as the kidnapping? So he was actually there, owns the same type of gun, and his car was seen parked there---and he confessed over 60 times----but the first explanation for his confessions would be because he was mentally unwell and had substance abuse problems?

What are the chances that another explanation could be added to his substance abuse and mental health issues? Could we also say that it's possible his mental health problems, alcohol problems, and his being on the bridge when the girls were kidnapped, ADD TO THE PROBABILITY the confessions were genuine?

Wasn’t speaking to guilt or innocence per say- was responding to OP who was wondering why someone my say they wanted to die if they were not guilty- and I gave my thoughts-

You asked about someone making 60+ confessions (I assumed that you were also implying if innocent) and I gave my first thoughts on why/how that might come about-

Wasn’t speaking to other aspects of the case - all moo

 

[Tricia]

Have you taken the Websleuths poll?
Click Here and cast your vote.
So far for Oct.25h
Guilty and acted alone 78.0%
Guilty but had help 0.0%
Not Guilty 6.0%
I don't know 16.0%

Thanks
Tricia

 

[ClearAhead]

He did not confess to killing his family. Read the context. He was referring to his guilt and regret over his own actions, and how it damaged his family life, essentially 'killing' his family.

People use the word 'kill' symbolically not literally quite often.

He was speaking to his therapist, Dr Wala. She was trying to talk him out of being suicidal, and saying his family loved him, needed him etc...his response was he didn't deserve to live because he killed his family with his actions...

Did Dr Wala believe he was actually confessing to murdering his family? NO, she didnt call 911 or do a welfare check. She knew he was not speaking literally.


They will probably play the audios of some of his confessions. If they are genuine confessions the D should be worried, IMO.

Yes “killing” is even in song lyrics, no connection to murder..has got me humming…

Strumming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
Killing me softly with his song
Killing me softly with his song….

 

[scapa]

Has this famed gun expert never seen the bad cop side of an interrogation before?

I did not like that strategy, not because it wasn’t effective, but because I think it was highly unlikely to be effective in the first place.

I’d want to hear as many details as possible, and have Allen account for numerous things. Screaming at him and encouraging an angry back and forth is just pointless.

Agree. Have seen parts before but that recounting verged on a caricatural "old school copper" montage. Half expected some Modern Police Person to burst into the interview room to cool things off and be screamed at for being an uppity Jill/ Joe College, etc.

I think RA is the murderer of A and L. I am hopeful that in the weeks to come this prosecution team will make that case effectively watertight.

But I can't help wondering where this case might we be a more subtle interviewer like OPP Det. Sgt. Jim Smyth, who so effectively dismantled Russell Williams, or any number of other top-shelf detectives had been brought in.

- Outdoor crime scene, undiscovered for hours
- Relatively minimal physical evidence to determine perpetrator directly
- Mixed and muddled messages from investigators early on (sketches, Logan, pretty much anything DC said)
- Remarkable but frustratingly inconclusive SnapChat footage
- 5 Years go by...
- Miraculous detail work by Shank et al provides a vital clue
- Initial police interview of RA

Feels like the interview was the fulcrum on which the case might rest, beyond the unspent cartridge and sometimes conflicting witness testimony, beyond perhaps even the video willed forth by the extraordinary LG. They needed to take their time, prepare the ground -- and nail it

Did they nail it?

 

[Bergmann]

Yes “killing” is even in song lyrics, no connection to murder..has got me humming…

Strumming my pain with his fingers
Singing my life with his words
Killing me softly with his song
Killing me softly with his song….

Will they play Roberta Flack in court for the jury?

 

[Deleted member 229974]

A few other points in mention -

https://fox59.com/news/delphi-trial-isp-lt-recounts-richard-allens-arrest-interviews/

At the trial, Holeman was asked if he believed one person committed the crime, to which he responded “I believe that now.” When pressed, Holeman compared the case to a drug deal in which multiple people talk and provide further insight on crimes.
….
Holeman was then questioned if he and ISP had a video of Bridge Guy, in order to see how tall he appeared in the video. He responded by saying they did but never tested it due to his height potentially being “…outside of our accuracy range” by about two inches.
…..
He does, however, think Allen “…may have heard somebody”, such as a car, that interrupted him during the murder.
——-
Later, Lieutenant Holeman noted that a strand of hair found in Abby’s hand did connect to a member of Libby German’s family, but it was not tested until this past week. According to Holeman, that is because no member of the German family was suspected of the crime.

No DNA was found in Richard’s Allen car or house linking him to the crime scene.

IMO, the Prosecution should have tested the DNA from the hair to determine the exact identy, regardless of their lack of suspicion or the monetary cost to do so. Their choice not to test it and along with their other questionable offerings, would prevent me from being able to send a person to prison for life. IMO

 

[ClearAhead]

It’s a long one, 1:28:59 considering court was only in session for a half day. I’m curious if they noted RA’s behavior while Mullin was testifying.

The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Eight: The Second Police Interview

We discuss the eighth day of Richard Allen's trial. We had a half-day of testimony from Lieutenant Jerry Holeman of the Indiana State Police. Support The Murder Sheet by buying a t-shirt here: https://www.murdersheetshop.com/ Send tips to [email protected]. The Murder Sheet is a...

art19.com

 

[steeltowngirl]

If there was a second person, that doesn’t clear BG.

Is he, because that's not what the jury instructions say?

I’ll have to read them. That’s how felony murder typically works, but maybe Indiana has different guidelines.

ETA I stand corrected.

Can you share more about what this all means? Does the state have to prove that RA acted alone? Aka Felony murder for just marching them down the hill isn’t on the table?

 

[Bergmann]

IMO, this case hinges solely on the confessions. Everything else is really just circumstantial.

That’s quite damning IMO. The confessions only came after RA was already in prison based solely on the PCA.

Doesn’t say much for the evidence they had to originally arrest and incarcerate him IMO.

 

[MassGuy]

IMO, the Prosecution should have tested the DNA from the hair to determine the exact identy, regardless of their lack of suspicion or the monetary cost to do so. Their choice not to test it and along with their other questionable offerings, would prevent me from being able to send a person to prison for life. IMO

Testing showed it was familial to Libby, so I get that it wasn’t helpful to the investigation. It would be helpful to trial though, for both optics and to take away the defense’s ability to claim that it is relevant/represents sloppy police work.

 

[ClearAhead]

Can you share more about what this all means? Does the state have to prove that RA acted alone? Aka Felony murder for just marching them down the hill isn’t on the table?

18/10/24: Instructions Of Court Pursuant To Criminal Rule 8 & Jury Rule 20 Of The Supreme Court Of Indiana

_Instructions of Court Pursuant to Criminal Rule and Jury Rule 20 of the Indiana Supreme Court of the State of Indiana.pdf

drive.google.com

Instructions to the Jurors
This is worth reading as it’s very important to the outcome of this case.

What is standing out to me is the elements within each of the four counts RA is charged with, each must be proven. Pertaining to the ‘felony’ murder charges it must be proven “The defendant R.M.A. killed (name of each victim) while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping”.

This is contrary to a conviction for felony murder with proof only of RA kidnapping them but not killing them.

I wonder if the elements of felony murder differ from state to state?

Bumping re- juror instructions.

 

[cbeagle]

IMO, the Prosecution should have tested the DNA from the hair to determine the exact identy, regardless of their lack of suspicion or the monetary cost to do so. Their choice not to test it and along with their other questionable offerings, would prevent me from being able to send a person to prison for life. IMO

I struggle to understand what Holeman means, if the hair was known to be connected to the family, then it must have been tested. So was that last week, or was the last week's testing to match it to an individual?

 

[Deleted member 229974]

I believe that witness, SC, was driving her car along 300N as the killer was making his escape & while family was initially gathering to look for girls.

My mistake, I thought it was on the trail, especially when she said she wouldn’t help him because she was alone and a woman. <modsnip> IMO

 

[MassGuy]

Can you share more about what this all means? Does the state have to prove that RA acted alone? Aka Felony murder for just marching them down the hill isn’t on the table?

The way I’m reading the instructions, marching them down the hill (kidnapping) would not make him guilty of felony murder unless he killed them. Thats different from what we typically see in felony murder cases.

@AugustWest ?

 

[MassGuy]

I struggle to understand what Holeman means, if the hair was known to be connected to the family, then it must have been tested. So was that last week, or was the last week's testing to match it to an individual?

It was tested, a familial connection was made, but they apparently went no further.

From what we’ve heard, they are now going further. I think that may be what the DNA expert will testify to (the person who was supposed to be called today but wasn’t).

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850268268537303289

 

[cbeagle]

Can you share more about what this all means? Does the state have to prove that RA acted alone? Aka Felony murder for just marching them down the hill isn’t on the table?

I'm just confused, the way I read the Indiana law is that murder by the accused is required, not just death during/due to kidnapping.

The jury instructions seem to back that up.

However I recall discussion since the charges that Indiana state court had ruled that the law was the more traditional understanding of felony murder. But in that case I would expect the jury instructions to reflect that.

 

[ClearAhead]

Testing showed it was familial to Libby, so I get that it wasn’t helpful to the investigation. It would be helpful to trial though, for both optics and to take away the defense’s ability to claim that it is relevant/represents sloppy police work.

Well yeah the question is does the jury consider it sloppy police work? It’s the jury who can view the heartbreak of the German family sitting in front of them day after day.

Which female shed the hair, why would the jury care knowing they’ve all been cleared? MOO