Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #204

[BUF]

Looks like 28 people have testified for the prosecution so far

Who's testified at Richard Allen's trial in the Delphi murders? What did they say?

These people have testified so far in the murder trial of Richard Allen, who stands accused of killing two teens in Delphi, Indiana.

www.indystar.com

 

[AugustWest]

The way I’m reading the instructions, marching them down the hill (kidnapping) would not make him guilty of felony murder unless he killed them. Thats different from what we typically see in felony murder cases.

@AugustWest ?

It is just poorly worded. Either that or the state has some definition of "kills" hidden in the criminal code that I am missing. From all that I have read on Indiana law, "kills" means "results in death" for purposes of the felony murder rule.

Although this document is a coroner's manual, it contains language consistent with that interpretation (at pg. 157):

Malice aforethought as the intent to commit an inherently dangerous felony is referred to as the felony-murder rule. When a person voluntarily commits an inherently dangerous felony (that is, a felony likely to result in the use of force or resistance by the victim, such as robbery, rape, or aggravated assault), that person knows that a foreseeable result of the commission of the felony is the killing of another human being. Traditionally, any death resulting from the commission or attempted commission of an inherently dangerous felony has been defined as a murder. This is true even where the killing is accidental, and where the decedent is the intended victim of the felony, or a bystander, or even an accomplice of the accused.

https://www.in.gov/ctb/files/appendix1.pdf

 

[photographer4]

Well yeah the question is does the jury consider it sloppy police work? It’s the jury who can view the heartbreak of the German family sitting in front of them day after day.

Which female shed the hair, why would the jury care knowing they’ve all been cleared? MOO

The heartbreak of the family sitting in the courtroom should NOT play into the jurors votes imo.

 

[WildHuncher]

It is just poorly worded. Either that or the state has some definition of "kills" hidden in the criminal code that I am missing. From all that I have read on Indiana law, "kills" means "results in death" for purposes of the felony murder rule.

Although this document is a coroner's manual, it contains language consistent with that interpretation (at pg. 157):

https://www.in.gov/ctb/files/appendix1.pdf

Still, those are the instructions the jury is going to use. A big mistake?

 

[FrostedGlass]

I believe that witness, SC, was driving her car along 300N as the killer was making his escape & while family was initially gathering to look for girls.

The last testimony I saw was her saying she was heading east, saw the people at the Mears entrance and then saw a muddy/bloody person walking west. If that's not her last statement, then I stand corrected.

That person would have had to walk right by those people at Mears within a couple of minutes. It's a straight piece of road from the cemetery to Mears parking. They should have seen him coming toward them.

No one else saw the guy SC saw..
MOO

 

[AugustWest]

Still, those are the instructions the jury is going to use. A big mistake?

Normally (where I practice), the two parties will sit down and draft jury instructions that are tailored to the specific case. The language of the statute will be dumbed down somewhat so that the jury will better understand them. Here is a pattern jury instruction crafted for a specific case in Indiana, so I feel the procedure is similar there:

https://law.indiana.edu/instruction/tanford/b720/JuryInstrucCriminal.pdf

 

[MassGuy]

These are people I want to hear from:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850282373289484750

 

[katydid23]

Wasn’t speaking to guilt or innocence per say- was responding to OP who was wondering why someone my say they wanted to die if they were not guilty- and I gave my thoughts-

You asked about someone making 60+ confessions (I assumed that you were also implying if innocent) and I gave my first thoughts on why/how that might come about-

Wasn’t speaking to other aspects of the case - all moo

Ok, that makes sense.
But what about in this specific case? Would you think it was significant that RA made 60+ confessions, on top of the fact that he was actually there on the bridge in the crucial time?

 

[katydid23]

The last testimony I saw was her saying she was heading east, saw the people at the Mears entrance and then saw a muddy/bloody person walking west. If that's not her last statement, then I stand corrected.

That person would have had to walk right by those people at Mears within a couple of minutes. It's a straight piece of road from the cemetery to Mears parking. They should have seen him coming toward them.

No one else saw the guy SC saw..
MOO

If they were gathering to search for the girls they probably left pretty quickly to get that search started. I doubt they were still standing around on that corner. IMO

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Ok, that makes sense.
But what about in this specific case? Would you think it was significant that RA made 60+ confessions, on top of the fact that he was actually there on the bridge in the crucial time?

I honestly don’t have enough information to decide- if the first witness saw a younger guy and the other witness saw a muddy guy in tan pants and RA was dressed similar to BG and was not seen by the first witness and was taking a comfort break behind a tree and didn’t see L & A and did see the 3 girls who saw RA dressed similar to BG and there were actually 3 -4 guys on the trails that day and RA wasn’t BG and was both falsely accused of a crime he didn’t commit and had mitigating mental health, substance and emotional issues- the I’d stand by my first two comments-

Not saying that’s actually what happened, he very well could be guilty, I’m not invested enough either way at this point other than to watch how things play out and what’s actually presented-

I think the investigation was sloppy and the P hasn’t thus far presented a case that’s close to beyond a reasonable doubt- and they aren’t done presenting evidence yet and I’ve not firmly formed an opinion yet as I have very limited very filtered information

All my own thoughts and opinions

 

[m00c0w]

Normally (where I practice), the two parties will sit down and draft jury instructions that are tailored to the specific case. The language of the statute will be dumbed down somewhat so that the jury will better understand them. Here is a pattern jury instruction crafted for a specific case in Indiana, so I feel the procedure is similar there:

https://law.indiana.edu/instruction/tanford/b720/JuryInstrucCriminal.pdf

It appears these are preliminary instructions that were handed down from JG. Indiana also has a phase where "final instructions" are given, which includes another rundown of the issues and burdens. I wonder if it is possible for there to be a more nuanced version given at final. Differing preliminary instructions may probably be considered okay because it's more "restrictive" towards finding guilt.

https://rules.incourts.gov/pdf/PDF%20-%20Jury/jury.pdf

JMO

 

[Elley Mae]

Snipped

He went home to get a jacket and headed to the trail.

Richard Allen was not on Delphi investigators' radar. Then a volunteer found a box of tips.

Testimonies in the double-murder trial revealed how investigators focused on Richard Allen in 2022.

news.yahoo.com

…

Ok can’t find it now but I read that he was wearing a jacket with a brown hoodie underneath, a Jacket not a coat.
My carhartt is not my jacket. My carhartt is my coat.
Not sure when carhartt was said/mentioned but now wonder if the jacket was reversible and he turned it inside out.

Thinking too much

 

[Warwick7]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1850290126016094358

 

[photographer4]

Delphi Murders Trial: Day 8 | Lead investigator on interrogation; Defense says Allen was never read his rights

Richard Allen denied any involvement during police interrogation says lead investigator in trial's eighth day.

www.wrtv.com

"Allen denied any involvement in the murders despite being asked 20 to 25 times."

"He testified Allen was read his Miranda Rights before he continued with the interview.
According to Holeman, this portion of the interview was not recorded due to technical difficulties." - ok then....

RE: the remark by Allen that was already over (paraphrasing)... "Holeman testified Allen said something to the effect that it (the arrest and murder charges) had ruined his life." - that makes sense to me and is what I figured the context may have been.

There are so many glaring issues with what the State have presented.... I don't know if RA had a part in any of this or not - but at this point, it really seems like the entire case was what was in the PCA - flawed witness statements, and a bullet that seems like it coulda come from anywhere, and a mentally ill man who surprise -- declined further in isolation in prison, on medications that may have made matters worse for however long.... and some "confessions"...

I wonder what the jury thinks so far?

 

[Boxer]

The last testimony I saw was her saying she was heading east, saw the people at the Mears entrance and then saw a muddy/bloody person walking west. If that's not her last statement, then I stand corrected.

That person would have had to walk right by those people at Mears within a couple of minutes. It's a straight piece of road from the cemetery to Mears parking. They should have seen him coming toward them.

No one else saw the guy SC saw..
MOO

There are trees on the Mears drive and the entrance. He would see their group before anyone there saw him.
Cutting into the field still provides that tree trunk cover, even in the early spring.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Even on his best days I’ve concluded he’s a few bricks short. JMO

Seriously. Any chance this guy is schitzophrenic? Not making excuses for him but wow.....

 

[shonyakay]

RA's confessions are going to corroborate all of the sworn testimony and the evidence brought out so far.

"You’ll hear Richard Allen in his own words telling his wife, his mom… (and others).. that he did it, how he did it, and why he did it." - Nick M.

In 61 + unsolicited and unprovoked confessions RA will place himself on the bridge.

Nick M. has already said RA admitted his motive was to sexually assault. A mixture of both girls' clothing was discovered in the creek. Abby was undressed at some point. Libby was found completely nude.

RA said he forced the girls' across the creek. The next day, Libby's jeans that Abby was wearing were damp/wet and the bottom of the sweatshirt had a water ring around it.

RA may admit he knows about the clothing switch. In the 3 day pre-trial hearings Nick alluded that Abby was dressed BEFORE she received her fatal injury.

RA admits he used a box cutter to inflict the girls' fatal wounds. The pathologist says their injuries are consistent with the use of a box cutter. LE looked for "sharp instruments" in early search warrants because they were not exactly sure what was used to cause the fatal wounds.

RA admits to using branches to attempt to cover the bodies. Was he possibly interrupted and that interruption is corroborated by evidence and/testimony?

Will he corroborate he was the man in the Carbaugh sighting or that he saw the family arriving?

So ready for next week's testimony.

 

[Kittybunny]

Has this famed gun expert never seen the bad cop side of an interrogation before?

I did not like that strategy, not because it wasn’t effective, but because I think it was highly unlikely to be effective in the first place.

I’d want to hear as many details as possible, and have Allen account for numerous things. Screaming at him and encouraging an angry back and forth is just pointless.

We really needed Johnny Grusing…think of all the self-incriminating gold he got out of Barry Morphew!

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Seriously. Any chance this guy is schitzophrenic? Not making excuses for him but wow.....

I think personally that there are some serious underlying issues- doesn’t mean he didn’t do it- and doesn’t mean he’s not guilty if he was there and didn’t do it- but there’s more to the story than he randomly snapped one day and acted solo- at least that’s my current theory- of sorts - moo

 

[INfisherman]

The last testimony I saw was her saying she was heading east, saw the people at the Mears entrance and then saw a muddy/bloody person walking west. If that's not her last statement, then I stand corrected.

That person would have had to walk right by those people at Mears within a couple of minutes. It's a straight piece of road from the cemetery to Mears parking. They should have seen him coming toward them.

No one else saw the guy SC saw..
MOO

That’s assuming BG stayed on the road the entire time. That I am aware, we only know he was on 300N when SC passed him, not that he was in there the entire time, unless I’ve missed something. I will try and review & readdress our discussion in a bit. I’m more concerned with making sure I haven’t made an assumption. For some reason, I was under the impression the Mears farm was further east between cemetery & RL’s residence but have confirmed it’s just after the large west curve just prior to where 300N begins to head due E.