Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #205

[Bergmann]

The following is where "BG", Abby, and Libby were on the bridge shortly before and during the commission of the crime.

There are 6 platforms on the Monon High Bridge.

At 1:46 p.m.
Betsy Blair arrives at the Mears' entrance. Betsy heads to the High Bridge and sees "BG" standing on Platform 1.

Looking South. Platform 1 is to the right.

View attachment 541208

At 2:05 p.m.
In between Platform 2 and 3, Libby takes a Snapchat photo of just the bridge.

Libby's photo of the bridge. Looking South. Platform 3 is up ahead to the right.

View attachment 541209

In between Platform 2 and 3, you can see that the markings on the planks on the bridge are the same exact markings observed in Libby's bridge photo.

View attachment 541211

At 2:07 p.m.
Libby is on Platform 3 facing the North side
and takes a Snapchat picture of Abby walking across the bridge.

Looking North. Libby's photo of Abby walking in between Platform 2 and 3. Platform 1 is in the distance to the left.

View attachment 541212

At 2:13 p.m.
Looking South. Platform 5 is directly to the right. "BG" is walking ahead of Platform 5, heading towards the end of the bridge ("Down the Hill" side.) You can see this Platform behind "BG" in Libby's cellphone video. Platform 6 is in the distance to the left.

View attachment 541214

A still photo of "BG" walking ahead of Platform 5 from Libby's cellphone video.

View attachment 541216

At the beginning of this picture is the very end of bridge. This is the "Down the Hill" side of the bridge, looking North. In Libby's video, Abby and Libby are heading South to the "Down the Hill" side of the bridge, somewhere between the end of Platform 5 (in the distance to the left) and the very end of the bridge, which is at the beginning of this picture.

View attachment 541219

Now turn around and face South again at the very end of the "Down the Hill" side of the bridge. Looking to the left, this is the view of "Down the Hill," where the girls' were forced to go.

View attachment 541221


I hope this helps.

Thanks for taking the time to share those collated pictures.

However I just can't reconcile that with Andrea Burkhart's description of the video (I'll find the timestamped portion of her video report and signpost it here) and she has obviously seen the video as played in court.

Paraphrasing, Andrea struggled to see the image of BG in the distance, and then correspond this with the audio - asking how BG would have gotten close enough in the time period to be captured apparently ordering the girls 'down the hill'.

I suppose it could make sense if BG and the person whose voice we hear saying DTH are two different people but the state's theory of the crime is that there is only one perpetrator of the kidnap and murder.

 

[shonyakay]

Has anyone who watched the full video shown the other day said he was close to them at the beginning of it?

And actually what they <modsnip> were insinuating was not that the girls' were at the beginning of the bridge with BG, but that BG seemed a great distance away from the girls' and so someone must have been at the other end of the bridge ( The down the hill side) and ordered them down the hill.

Abby was running toward the Down the Hill side of the bridge to get away from "BG" so I don't buy that for a second.

 

[rez125]

And actually what they <modsnip> were insinuating was not that the girls' were at the beginning of the bridge with BG, but that BG seemed a great distance away from the girls' and so someone must have been at the other end of the bridge ( The down the hill side) and ordered them down the hill.

Abby was running toward the Down the Hill side of the bridge to get away from "BG" so I don't buy that for a second.

<modsnip - quoted post was snipped>

I've only heard they're (girls) near the end of it and that you can barely see BG. Then seconds later the "Down the hill" audio comes in.

 

[shonyakay]

Thanks for taking the time to share those collated pictures.

However I just can't reconcile that with Andrea Burkhart's description of the video (I'll find the timestamped portion of her video report and signpost it here) and she has obviously seen the video as played in court.

Paraphrasing, Andrea struggled to see the image of BG in the distance, and then correspond this with the audio - asking how BG would have gotten close enough in the time period to be captured apparently ordering the girls 'down the hill'.

I suppose it could make sense if BG and the person whose voice we hear saying DTH are two different people but the state's theory of the crime is that there is only one perpetrator of the kidnap and murder.

You're welcome. Lawyer Lee tried insinuating the same. They both are defense orientated. I don't know their motive. I don't know if they just don't know where on the bridge these events actually transpired, or, if their bias is helping them to reach such a conclusion to bolster (whether intentionally or unintentionally) the defense's theory that there were multiple perps.

 

[rez125]

You're welcome. Lawyer Lee tried insinuating the same. They both are defense orientated. I don't know their motive. I don't know if they just don't know where on the bridge these events actually transpired, or, if their bias is helping them to reach such a conclusion to bolster (whether intentionally or unintentionally) the defense's theory that there were multiple perps.

Just because they're defense lawyers by trade doesn't mean they're intentionally portraying evidence as something it's not.

The two you've mentioned are there to see the evidence and comment on it.

 

[Bergmann]

You're welcome. Lawyer Lee tried insinuating the same. They both are defense orientated. I don't know their motive. I don't know if they just don't know where on the bridge these events actually transpired, or, if their bias is helping them to reach such a conclusion to bolster (whether intentionally or unintentionally) the defense's theory that there were multiple perps.

<modsnip>

Personally I don't feel it appropriate to try to explain away things that are inconvenient on the basis of just 'they're biased' alone. It could be argued the same for any other source, MS included but IMO that's not helpful to building a better understanding of evidence.

 

[mrjitty]

What makes you think it wasn't included in his testimony? When he talks about power on and off events, and the attempt to unlock, those are datapoints extracted from KnowledgeC.

JMO

In general I think the defence is attempting to obfuscate as usual

For example, Cecil made clear that the original analysis focussed on the day of the murders, for the obvious reason that they wanted to solve the murders. They were able to corroborate what happened in that critical hour. It's obvious to anyone that the murderer didn't hang around for 10-14 hours at the crime scene or come back.

Once the defence started raising the second location conspiracy, then of course further work was done to rule it out.

Then the defence complains that this work wasn't done in 2017.

But why would it have been a focus? Investigators found the phone under the body. It was wholly irrelevant at what time post mortem texts were received - until the defence made it central to their defence.

MOO

 

[shonyakay]

Just because they're defense lawyers by trade doesn't mean they're intentionally portraying evidence as something it's not.

The two you've mentioned are there to see the evidence and comment on it.

I have never watched Andrea but I have Lawyer Lee and I have heard her mistate testimony.

For example, Lawyer Lee stated Libby and Abby were dropped off at the trails at 1:39 p.m. but actually it was 1:49 p.m.

She then proceeded to claim that the steps that Libby was taking just before they were dropped off at Lee's incorrect time of 1:39 p.m. must have occurred in the car on their way to the trails.

Did she do that to insinuate Libby's steps would be calculated in a car to help the defense theory that the girls' were picked up in a car and taken elsewhere?

 

[FrostedGlass]

They were likely shocked that the now retired ME <modsnip - unnecessary> just happened to think to himself 7 years later, that a box cutter could be the weapon used, as he'd never mentioned it before.

I was looking forward to hearing his report and it just left me SMH. The fact that he changed his testimony on the witness stand and had talked to the P but not the D has made me lose trust. I'm not a fan of blindsiding either the P or the D. So now I'm questioning everything about his testimony.

I want to see exactly when he did the autopsies. How long it took for him to complete them. How extensive they were. Did he test the girls to see if someone had drugged them, especially Abby... laying there so peacefully seems so odd.

Disclaimer: In NO way am I implying that anyone, other than the killer, may have drugged either one of the girls.
[snips]
Kohr estimated that the girls died approximately 41 hours before the autopsy.
Rozzi said that during deposition on Feb. 27, 2024, Kohr said the girls had been dead between 24 and 48 hours.

Delphi Murders Trial: Day 5 live blog

Wednesday is day 5 of testimonies in the Delphi Murders trial begins at the Carroll County courthouse. Follow our live blog for updates.

www.wishtv.com

'I don't know' | Investigator describes unexplained gap in data from Libby's phone | Day 5 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

 

[rez125]

I have never watched Andrea but I have Lawyer Lee and I have heard her mistate testimony.

For example, Lawyer Lee stated Libby and Abby were dropped off at the trails at 1:39 p.m. but actually it was 1:49 p.m.

She then proceeded to claim that the steps that Libby was taking just before they were dropped off at Lee's incorrect time of 1:39 p.m. must have occurred in the car on their way to the trails.

Did she do that to insinuate Libby's steps would be calculated in a car to help the defense theory that the girls' were picked up in a car and taken elsewhere?

I doubt she was trying to insinuate anything.

She's reporting as everyone else on what she is seeing/hearing at the trial.

 

[rez125]

I was looking forward to hearing his report and it just left me SMH. The fact that he changed his testimony on the witness stand and had talked to the P but not the D has made me lose trust. I'm not a fan of blindsiding either the P or the D. So now I'm questioning everything about his testimony.

I want to see exactly when he did the autopsies. How long it took for him to complete them. How extensive they were. Did he test the girls to see if someone had drugged them, especially Abby... laying there so peacefully seems so odd.

Disclaimer: In NO way am I implying that anyone, other than the killer, may have drugged either one of the girls.
[snips]
Kohr estimated that the girls died approximately 41 hours before the autopsy.
Rozzi said that during deposition on Feb. 27, 2024, Kohr said the girls had been dead between 24 and 48 hours.

Delphi Murders Trial: Day 5 live blog

Wednesday is day 5 of testimonies in the Delphi Murders trial begins at the Carroll County courthouse. Follow our live blog for updates.

www.wishtv.com

'I don't know' | Investigator describes unexplained gap in data from Libby's phone | Day 5 of Delphi murders trial for suspect Richard Allen

Seven years after Libby German and Abby Williams were killed, the trial continues for the man accused of murdering them.

www.wthr.com

Yeah can we get a time of when the autopsies were carried out? That would help with the 41 hours estimation.

Why cant the ME just give a TOD?

 

[Pyrite]

I have never watched Andrea but I have Lawyer Lee and I have heard her mistate testimony.

For example, Lawyer Lee stated Libby and Abby were dropped off at the trails at 1:39 p.m. but actually it was 1:49 p.m.

She then proceeded to claim that the steps that Libby was taking just before they were dropped off at Lee's incorrect time of 1:39 p.m. must have occurred in the car on their way to the trails.

Did she do that to insinuate Libby's steps would be calculated in a car to help the defense theory that the girls' were picked up in a car and taken elsewhere?

How do you know Lawyer Lee misstated the testimony? Unless you were there and heard it yourself. My problem with the way Judge Gull is handling public access to the trial is we can’t ‘know’ what the testimony said because everyone reporting on the trial is working off written notes.

If she did mistake the testimony, I doubt it was more than a regular error. She seems pretty fair to me. I listen to the murder sheet and watch Lawyer Lee as they have different perspectives on the case. I also follow the MSM reporters at the trial on X. They don’t always match when it comes to trial testimony.

 

[Bbgiraffe]

I have never watched Andrea but I have Lawyer Lee and I have heard her mistate testimony.

For example, Lawyer Lee stated Libby and Abby were dropped off at the trails at 1:39 p.m. but actually it was 1:49 p.m.

She then proceeded to claim that the steps that Libby was taking just before they were dropped off at Lee's incorrect time of 1:39 p.m. must have occurred in the car on their way to the trails.

Did she do that to insinuate Libby's steps would be calculated in a car to help the defense theory that the girls' were picked up in a car and taken elsewhere?

Different people are going to have different opinions on what the evidence shows that is why I am only looking at the MSM coverage of this. No youtubers. It is difficult to tell what is their opinion and what was actually shown because we don't have audio to hear ourselves. Even court transcripts leave out a lot of nuance that can be interpreted in different ways by different people.

 

[shonyakay]

Personally I don't feel it appropriate to try to explain away things that are inconvenient on the basis of just 'they're biased' alone.

Snipped: You are misrepresenting what I posted. I clearly posted that I don't know what their motive is but clearly gave more than one possibility.

I have done my homework on this case so I don't need explain anything away.

 

[Salah11]

I hope we get to his confessions in the next few days to really cement his guilt.

It’s obviously him, of that I have no doubt, but we just need a few more nails in his coffin.

 

[iamshadow21]

Yeah can we get a time of when the autopsies were carried out? That would help with the 41 hours estimation.

Why cant the ME just give a TOD?

Because unlike Agatha Christie, where a convenient broken wristwatch gives the time someone was killed down to the second, time of death, unless confirmed by outside sources such as a witness or a digital device, is always an estimate based on a number of factors, such as body temperature, rigor, livor mortis, food digestion, bugs, and so on. And all of those things are subject to variation.

Personally, I think the best guess as to the most exact time of death is the moment Libby's phone stopped moving. It was underneath Abby's leg. If she'd still been moving at all, even slightly, the phone would have been moved. That it never moved again tells me she was probably dead.

MOO

 

[rez125]

Because unlike Agatha Christie, where a convenient broken wristwatch gives the time someone was killed down to the second, time of death, unless confirmed by outside sources such as a witness or a digital device, is always an estimate based on a number of factors, such as body temperature, rigor, livor mortis, food digestion, bugs, and so on. And all of those things are subject to variation.

Personally, I think the best guess as to the most exact time of death is the moment Libby's phone stopped moving. It was underneath Abby's leg. If she'd still been moving at all, even slightly, the phone would have been moved. That it never moved again tells me she was probably dead.

MOO

Yes I'm aware it's an estimation but found it odd he testified it was 41 hours prior to autopsy, why did he state it that way and not give his estimated time.

Why didn't he just state what time he carried out the autopsies in addition to the 41 hours?

 

[shonyakay]

How do you know Lawyer Lee misstated the testimony? Unless you were there and heard it yourself. My problem with the way Judge Gull is handling public access to the trial is we can’t ‘know’ what the testimony said because everyone reporting on the trial is working off written notes.

If she did mistake the testimony, I doubt it was more than a regular error. She seems pretty fair to me. I listen to the murder sheet and watch Lawyer Lee as they have different perspectives on the case. I also follow the MSM reporters at the trial on X. They don’t always match when it comes to trial testimony.

I will ammend this to say Lawyer Lee could have possibly heard 1:39 p.m. as the drop off time in court. I wasn't there.

However, RA's PCA clearly states it was 1:49 p.m.

The steps Libby was taking before 1:49 p.m. was obviously taken before she got in Kelsi's car to head to High Bridge.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I have never watched Andrea but I have Lawyer Lee and I have heard her mistate testimony.

For example, Lawyer Lee stated Libby and Abby were dropped off at the trails at 1:39 p.m. but actually it was 1:49 p.m.

She then proceeded to claim that the steps that Libby was taking just before they were dropped off at Lee's incorrect time of 1:39 p.m. must have occurred in the car on their way to the trails.

Did she do that to insinuate Libby's steps would be calculated in a car to help the defense theory that the girls' were picked up in a car and taken elsewhere?

Here's what I've found. By Kelsi's own testimony, she dropped them off at 1:40pm.
By Cecil's own report, Libby's phone recorded steps at 1:31pm.
I can make no sense of the above.

Here's what I have so far:
[snips]
"Kelsi said she didn’t learn her sister was missing until 4 p.m. She had dropped the girls off at 1:40 p.m."
https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/gran...ecalls-day-girls-disappeared-on-delphi-trail/
***
"A chart in Cecil’s report outlined the recorded movement for Libby’s phone on February 13, 2017":

1:31 pm – 2:08 pm – 1,682 steps (707.34 meters)
2:08 pm – 2:18 pm – 414.38 meters
2:25 pm – 2:32 pm – 66 steps (50.64 meters)
2:31 pm – two-floor elevation change
https://www.wane.com/top-stories/he...lood-bridge-guy-witness-testimonies-continue/

 

[Justice101]

I'll never to be able to catch up with the discussion. I did watch a local TV station youtube update on the cartridge testimony.