Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #10 *Arrest*

[Kemug]

The finances seem a tangled mess even after separating in 2015, not with just the mother's inheritance, but moving Simons name from one title to another and the interest free loans (but indexed to inflation) that she (or was it she and Simon) made to two of Simon's sibling families of around $400K each.

I remember there was also media report somewhere that the siblings were making the repayments to Simon, though they were supposed to be separated. Maybe these agreements went south and is a contributing factor of her anger against Simon and his family.

In wonder if the prosecution will delve into the financial situation, as depending what the financial situation is and particularly the loans, it could add another layer to demonstrate resentment against Simon and the family above what the court has seen so far from text and facebook messages.

But surely all this financial stuff would have involved banks, financial advisors, etc - the money wouldn't have just been handed over in a brown paper bag. So it shouldn't have impossible to untangle. Or maybe it's a lesson not to lend a small fortune to people if you're going to change your mind. And not without safeguards. But I'm not a financial advisor.

 

[Spectrix]

As a legal question, if the definite facts of the matter were that she had made a genuine mistake, but then realised what must had happened, and decided not to tell the doctors and so 3 people died, what would be the legal position? I daresay there may have been such cases. Would there still be murder charges?

Interesting scenario. I suspect charges might be more akin to manslaughter if it was known that intent was not a factor.

 

[mamamama9873]

Yes, but - why on earth didn't she just leave and get a divorce? Yes, she had her nice new house. But couldn't she have bought or built another one, say 30 - 40 miles away? Still close enough for the kids to see their father and grandparents, but a whole new environment. She would still have had her online friends. I'm sure she would have had plenty of money even after a divorce. It seems she just wanted to get them all out of her life, and I'm afraid that it ended up being an all-consuming hatred.

I have wondered this too. She was a wealthy woman and had the freedom of so many choices, could have easily moved, gone travelling, paid for a therapist and a family lawyer and just moved on with her life.
But she clearly doesn’t reason like the average person and I believe she has a personality disorder (no excuses of course, just reflecting on the origins of this horrific alleged crime).

 

[SouthAussie]

I have wondered this too. She was wealthy woman and had the freedom of so many choices, could have easily moved, gone travelling, paid for a therapist and a family lawyer and just moved on with her life.
But she clearly doesn’t reason like the average person and I believe she has a personality disorder (no excuses of courses just reflecting on the origins of this horrific alleged crime).

It seems like some weird (alleged) twist to people who murder their spouses because they want all of the assets, or people who murder their spouses because they won't let them leave.

It reminds me more and more of the US case of Mary Yoder being poisoned and killed by Kaitlyn Conley. Mary being a supposedly loved employer of Kaitlyn and the beloved mother of Kaitlyn's ex-boyfriend - an ex-boyfriend who refused to reunite with Kaitlyn.

imo

 

[Scuffy35]

But surely all this financial stuff would have involved banks, financial advisors, etc - the money wouldn't have just been handed over in a brown paper bag. So it shouldn't have impossible to untangle. Or maybe it's a lesson not to lend a small fortune to people if you're going to change your mind. And not without safeguards. But I'm not a financial advisor.

Probably bank transfers, but although the money trail could most probably be traced, it doesn't prove who the money belongs to when it was transferred as a loan. Who knows how official the loan arrangement was. Was there even a written signed agreement? This occurred after they were already separated, which is a really strange situation in my opinion, especially they were such large amounts.

 

[SouthAussie]

Probably bank transfers, but although the money trail could most probably be traced, it doesn't prove who the money belongs to when it was transferred as a loan. Who knows how official the loan arrangement was. Was there even a written signed agreement? This occurred after they were already separated, which is a really strange situation in my opinion, especially they were such large amounts.

I think the loans happened before Simon and Erin separated.


'They were arranged so that there was no legal hold, I guess, to force them to pay the money back, but the arrangements were that - the intention was that they be paid back at the same kind of amounts that they'd be paying back a mortgage if it was a mortgage,' Simon said.

When the couple split, the remaining loans split between them with Simon taking over collections from Anna while Erin took on Matt.

New details emerge about what Erin Patterson did with $2m inheritance

The shock revelations emerged as Simon Patterson was cross examined by his ex-wife's barrister at the Supreme Court of Victoria sitting in the Latrobe Valley.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Kemug]

Although in my opinion Erin is guilty as charged, I do feel some sympathy for her. In spite of worldly goods, she has no-one (apparently) standing by her, is lonely and miserable, and probably has nothing to look forward to. Whether this is entirely her own fault, who knows?

 

[Scuffy35]

It seems like some weird (alleged) twist to people who murder their spouses because they want all of the assets, or people who murder their spouses because they won't let them leave.

....

imo

In yet in this case, after being separated, she loaned his family hundreds of thousands of dollars in an unorthodox arrangement (interest free but indexed), so does not seem to be a motive of "want all the assets".

For the latter reason, she has reportedly kicked him out a number of times.

I think there is more to the story that we have not been privy to as it just does not make sense to me.

[EDIT - Not saw SouthAusslie post on loan timings when posted]

 

[katydid23]

As a legal question, if the definite facts of the matter were that she had made a genuine mistake, but then realised what must had happened, and decided not to tell the doctors and so 3 people died, what would be the legal position? I daresay there may have been such cases. Would there still be murder charges?

I think that might be considered manslaughter, of some kind?

Criminal Negligence/Manslaughter?

Or

Involuntary Manslaughter ---[occurs through criminal negligence or recklessness]

 

[Porky1]

How many adult households with a solid income and interest in cooking use different plates when entertaining though

It doesn’t sound like she entertained, I think even Simon said she didn’t have many plates. I good set and the rest for their family if three, plus extra kids.

 

[Scuffy35]

I think the loans happened before Simon and Erin separated.

The complicated order of events is the most difficult aspect of trying to analyse this case. I don't know how the juror's are going to cope with it. If I was a lot more invested in the case than I currently am, even if only still for self interest purposes, I would probably be making a very detailed visual timeline from all the available information.

 

[katydid23]

Probably bank transfers, but although the money trail could most probably be traced, it doesn't prove who the money belongs to when it was transferred as a loan. Who knows how official the loan arrangement was. Was there even a written signed agreement? This occurred after they were already separated, which is a really strange situation in my opinion, especially they were such large amounts.

I know some are thinking that these large loans with no interest indicate that EP was really generous and caring. But I do wonder if there was another element to it as well?

In a weird way, it is also kind of a power move/ a flex? Like look what I've done for you, now you owe me, you are indebted, etc. Maybe it is unfair for me to look at it that way. IDK?

 

[Doesitmakesense]

I know some are thinking that these large loans with no interest indicate that EP was really generous and caring. But I do wonder if there was another element to it as well?

In a weird way, it is also kind of a power move/ a flex? Like look what I've done for you, now you owe me, you are indebted, etc. Maybe it is unfair for me to look at it that way. IDK?

I feel that's what the motive would be too

 

[SouthAussie]

I know some are thinking that these large loans with no interest indicate that EP was really generous and caring. But I do wonder if there was another element to it as well?

In a weird way, it is also kind of a power move/ a flex? Like look what I've done for you, now you owe me, you are indebted, etc. Maybe it is unfair for me to look at it that way. IDK?

In a way, it seems like she may have been buying a family.

And when Simon finally started standing his ground and refusing her requests, and his family (naturally) kept close with him, she may have felt abandoned ... and very angry deep inside.

imo

 

[Kemug]

Interesting scenario. I suspect charges might be more akin to manslaughter if it was known that intent was not a factor.

It's confusing. Intent was not a factor in the beginning of this imaginary case, but then it certainly did become a factor, didn't it.

 

[Kemug]

I know some are thinking that these large loans with no interest indicate that EP was really generous and caring. But I do wonder if there was another element to it as well?

In a weird way, it is also kind of a power move/ a flex? Like look what I've done for you, now you owe me, you are indebted, etc. Maybe it is unfair for me to look at it that way. IDK?

Or just "showing off"?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I think she was up against it right from the beginning.

She probably didn't realise until too late that she didn't only marry a man, she married his family and their religion as well.

I think she gave up everything to try to make that marriage work.

 

[Ellery84]

I have wondered this too. She was a wealthy woman and had the freedom of so many choices, could have easily moved, gone travelling, paid for a therapist and a family lawyer and just moved on with her life.
But she clearly doesn’t reason like the average person and I believe she has a personality disorder (no excuses of course, just reflecting on the origins of this horrific alleged crime).

I agree. She doesn’t reason like the average person, so she wasn’t able to use her money to help herself to move on or to move forward.

Also, she may not have been able to move due to sharing custody, so that limits her choices a bit and maybe she felt stuck.

It’s no excuse, and there’s no excuse for what has allegedly occurred.

 

[Warshawski]

I think that might be considered manslaughter, of some kind?

Criminal Negligence/Manslaughter?

Or

Involuntary Manslaughter ---[occurs through criminal negligence or recklessness]

This has crossed my mind too but I’m unsure of whether jury can make a finding of Manslaughter when the charge is Murder.
I don’t recall the Judge giving them any instructions to that fact, although perhaps he may offer those alternatives in final instructions.

I do belief there were options given to the Jury in Greg Lynn’s trial.

It would be good to from those of us who’ve sat on juries in Australian murder trials.

 

[SouthAussie]

This has crossed my mind too but I’m unsure of whether jury can make a finding of Manslaughter when the charge is Murder.
I don’t recall the Judge giving them any instructions to that fact, although perhaps he may offer those alternatives in final instructions.

I do belief there were options given to the Jury in Greg Lynn’s trial.

It would be good to from those of us who’ve sat on juries in Australian murder trials.

Someone told me recently that, in Victoria, manslaughter is almost always an option in a murder trial. I will see if I can find the link again and add it. It is called the Alternative Verdict.

In the Greg Lynn trial the judge took away the option of manslaughter.

CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 421 Alternative verdicts on charge of murder​

S. 421(1) amended by No. 68/2009 s. 97(Sch. item 40.24).
(1) On an indictment for murder a person found not guilty of murder may be found guilty of—
(a) manslaughter;

CRIMES ACT 1958 - SECT 421 Alternative verdicts on charge of murder

Greg Lynn trial:
When the jury was out of the courtroom on June 7, Crown prosecutor Daniel Porceddu, Lynn's barrister Dermot Dann KC and Justice Michael Croucher spoke about taking manslaughter off the table.
A verdict of manslaughter was ruled out in Greg Lynn's murder trial after all evidence had been heard.
Prosecution and defence lawyers agreed the only options for either charge were murder or acquittal.

The reason why manslaughter wasn't an option for the Greg Lynn murder trial jury

At the end of a five-week trial, prosecution and defence arguments differed so vastly that the jury were left with just two options: murder or acquittal.

www.abc.net.au