CANADA Canada - Jack, 4 & Lilly Sullivan, 6, Vulnerable, wandered from home 10am, Gairloch Rd, Landsdowne Station, Pictou County, NS, 2 May 2025 #7

[Twistinginthewind]

Thank you . So yelling frequently can be considered indirect homicide if the child comes to harm as a consequence even if you did not physically kill them

Only if LE can prove a pattern of abuse (even verbal abuse is considered domestic violence [DV] in some countries, would have to check CA) led to them fleeing and becoming even more "vulnerable" and their vulnerability led them being abducted and/or perishing out in the elements.

Not sure if they have any proof of DM's patterns in treatment of her kids if MBM isn't talking and was the only other adult in the home, and is scared, and his mother and brother nearby also aren't talking.

However, we don't know if family and friends and their teachers or others in the community who were interviewed may have given LE something along those lines as their opinion/observation, and it wasn't enough to act on at first, and DM nipped things in the bud by taking courses for his multiple "issues".

It doesn't mean the investigation hasn't gotten legs under it in this direction since their last statement in July re no evidence to indicate crimes being committed.

They could be building a case against DM if/when they have all their ducks in a row, and if/then, it would be a resounding yes if under this scenario DM committing DV led to their disappearance, which would be criminal.

It's some sort of solid proof they need of DV by DM against Lilly and Jack, which maybe they have gotten from CPS, if no one else can or is willing to speak up about what they might or might not have witnessed.

Other than MBM saying he helped alot with the raising of them when she was overwhelmed and DM saying evem more on that note along with seeking professional help for all his personal issues, which went beyond anger management, IIRC, which was recently posted upthread. The list was kind of long and included parenting, child safety, drug use and violence.

I just had a thought re the list of issues and what he said he had signed up for....

What if that had come from the school > CPS as a first step in addressing their home life situation there were concerns about, that they required him to get that help and that is in the memo, because he lived with them and was parenting them and he was the wild card.

And people involved in their lives knew it, and MBM was powerless to get him to stop this or start that, for reasons discussed above.

I am not a lawyer (IANAL) but I have worked in the legal field in the US, and IMO, any evidence of poor or neglectful parenting, coercive control exerted over the household with minor children, DV even if "only" verbal, living in fear of him, etc., which could be proven to have led to their disappearance or deaths would be a crime.

Unfortunately, there is no evidence we've heard of thus far from the adults living on the property of yelling or whatnot that morning, but again, it doesn't mean there wasn't a low veiled threat leveled at them to be quiet or else.

MOO

 

[thelesis]

I did a quick poking around in the Criminal Code and this bit from the homicide section caught my eye (BBM):

Idem

(5) A person commits culpable homicide when he causes the death of a human being,

• (a) by means of an unlawful act;
• (b) by criminal negligence;
• (c) by causing that human being, by threats or fear of violence or by deception, to do anything that causes his death; or
• (d) by wilfully frightening that human being, in the case of a child or sick person.

 

[MistyWaters]

Dunno about Canada law otherwise but it Could be classified as emotional abuse in the children and family services act depending on the investigation under “any similar acts” which is similar to how yelling is typically handled.

Yes it could result in neglect charges but yelling cannot cause death in the way that starving or physically beating a child would. An autopsy would be conducted and it would be impossible to determine that yelling was involved in the cause or manner of death.

Besides Maleyha’s quote recently released in the documents gave no indication of verbal abuse by DM and she would’ve been woken up by the alleged yelling. I’ll look for what she said because I posted it awhile back.

Have you ever heard of case in the US where emotional abuse (ie yelling) caused death and criminal charges were laid?

 

[MistyWaters]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/extensive-rcmp-scrutiny-of-missing-children-s-mother-stepfather-suggests-no-criminal-involvement-1.7615551

The newly released documents provide summaries of five statements Brooks-Murray provided to the RCMP. In her first police interview, she described Martell as "an involved parent who would help her especially when she was overwhelmed."

She said he wasn't aggressive with the children but "he had a voice they would listen to."

Brooks-Murray told RCMP there was never any physical discipline.

 

[JudiK]

Has anyone said why they have not brought in more dogs? cadaver dogs...scent dogs...at least rule out if they are on the property somewhere. How about dogs search the area where the print was found?

 

[MistyWaters]

Has anyone said why they have not brought in more dogs? cadaver dogs...scent dogs...at least rule out if they are on the property somewhere. How about dogs search the area where the print was found?

Tracking dogs were injtially used. The print was found near the location of the piece of blanket and dogs were unable to detect a trail. It’s been speculated the print may’ve been left by local people searching who brought along their children. At this point in time the RCMP has not announced any further searches or the use of cadaver dogs, nor reasons why not. But N.S. has recently applied a very strict fire ban to all forested areas due to high forest fire risk.

 

[MistyWaters]

I did a quick poking around in the Criminal Code and this bit from the homicide section caught my eye (BBM):

Key word is “willfully” which means intentionally. Are you familiar with the case of Amanda Todd, in B.C.? That horrid cyberbullying situation was very applicable to that particular charge. What did DM say that ‘willfully’ caused the children to go get lost and die in the forest and how would it ever proven?

And what about the recently released documents by MSM that stated as at July 16th the RCMP did not believe criminality was involved in the children’s disappearance? That better fits a scenario whereby the children or Lilly might’ve been yelled at be be quieter, baby is sleeping and so the two children stomped off into the forest and were met with an accidental death such as hypothermia, without involvement of any criminal negligence.
JMO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Has anyone said why they have not brought in more dogs? cadaver dogs...scent dogs...at least rule out if they are on the property somewhere. How about dogs search the area where the print was found?

LE hasn't given reasons why they didn't bring in cadaver dogs, but it was implied, IMO, when after exhaustive searches with scent dogs within a 1.2 square mile area surrounding their property did not pick up their scent or "flag" they had been anywhere on foot past the end of the driveway. Including in the woods and likely where the bootprints & blanket scrap were found.

The implication was that no physical sign of them or evidence of a crime in that 1.2 square mile area they searched led them to decide to stop the on the ground & aboveground air search (via heat seeking drones & helicopters at first IIRC) and shift the investigation outward regionally because they were confident they weren't there or thereabouts.

One of the search team leaders stated after LE stopped physically searching that they thought they could still be in the woods & just not found yet, but that was one person who was giving their opinion to MSM in an interview, and IIRC they were not a LE officer in charge of the search & investigation at large, but were in charge of the search & rescue (S&R) teams or one of them.

JMO

 

[su5ie]

Great responses it's great when discussion gets going and hearing the different perspectives thank you .

There is a few contradictory facts concerning the situation and behaviour of adults in the home and it raises questions as to whether or not the negative facts were the catalyst for lilly and jack going missing that morning. Not directly but an indirect consequence. Not blame but cause to wonder .

Positive facts :
MBM states DM helped her when she was overwhelmed

DM states the children only listened to him and that he was active in their upbringing and he states he did everything in regard to parenting lilly and jack

MBM states there was no physical discipline and that DM was not aggressive with the children and he had a voice the kids would listen to



Negative facts or facts that can be viewed negatively. :

Cps involvement

Reporting of children needing school staff to provide for them beyond the usual supports

DM attending anger management

Reports of DM holding mbm down

Accusations of blame toward DM

Statements regarding the relationship being so dysfunctional that MBM family had prepared in the past to intervene and had been ready to help her leave DM in the past .

DM admitting to drug use

Black eyes on one or other of both children on 3 or more occasions in the recent past .

MBM states DM was controlling

And I'm sure there is more to add to each list .

If we look at the positive Statements from mbm one cannot help but think if he was so wonderful why did she leave him on day two . If we look at the negative facts one can see why she left . When we look at each fact from both groups some contradict the other Statements. In regards to the atmosphere in the small home . I know a person can direct abuse at a partner and be the " loving " father for all sense and purposes .

But this atmosphere does create a fear in children that they may be next to get the brunt of the anger and it instills a fear that doesn't require physical or direct verbal abuse to be aimed at a child so when a child hears that adult raising or disciplining in a stern voice the reaction is the same as if that adult gave them a beating .

So was a raised voice telling them to be quiet enough to prehaps cause the children to venture outside so they could be noisy without disturbing the adults and prehaps wandering a bit further than normally permitted ,the children heard DM yelling out their names and hid in fear of punishment. This might explain the Accusations of blame from mbms family that may have resulted in her leaving and cutting off the relationship so swiftly especially if her mother enlightened mbm to this perspective . And why DM was appearing in interviews to be more concerned about clearing his name .

So this is why I raised my previous query. And could it be the reasoning behind major crimes involvement but thus far they cannot prove criminal negligence?

 

[MistyWaters]

<snipped to reply>

So this is why I raised my previous query. And could it be the reasoning behind major crimes involvement but thus far they cannot prove criminal negligence?

I‘m not so sure that Majority Crimes involvement is a sure fire indicator that a major crime occurred. I think it’s a unit with high level investigative resources including senior investigators who are able to apply more focus on this missing children’s case than the RCMP detachment at Shubenacadie ever could. As the RCMP is a national organization, they’re able to work together to assist small town departments in this way.

In the beginning it was said they took over a missing persons investigation if foul play was suspected, as it is in all missing persons cases, until ruled out. I think we all agree it was highly appropriate for that avenue to be thoroughly investigated.
JMO

 

[su5ie]

I‘m not so sure that Majority Crimes involvement is a sure fire indicator that a major crime occurred. I think it’s a unit with high level investigative resources including senior investigators who are able to apply more focus on this missing children’s case than the RCMP detachment at Shubenacadie ever could. As the RCMP is a national organization, they’re able to work together to assist small town departments in this way.

In the beginning it was said they took over a missing persons investigation if foul play was suspected, as it is in all missing persons cases, until ruled out. I think we all agree it was highly appropriate for that avenue to be thoroughly investigated.
JMO

Yes I do agree it was the correct route and I'm not entirely convinced that the end of the road re their involvement is over .

As a poster stated previously ( it could have been yourself) just because as of the 16th of July they found no evidence of criminality doesn't mean it won't be found in the future because its what they haven't found and said is what matters and they haven't said they found evidence the kids wandered into the woods quite the contrary they stated the dogs found no evidence they left the yard and it would appear as of yet either have human searchers .

Time will reveal more and if when time allows its what they do or don't do regarding possible further searches using cadaver dogs that will give a better picture of direction . As I'm sure the RCMP will want to find the remains if all other avenues have been explored and turn up dead-ends .

As Simon and Garfunkel sing in the sound of silence .. even in silence there is something to be heard

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes I do agree it was the correct route and I'm not entirely convinced that the end of the road re their involvement is over .

As a poster stated previously ( it could have been yourself) just because as of the 16th of July they found no evidence of criminality doesn't mean it won't be found in the future because its what they haven't found and said is what matters and they haven't said they found evidence the kids wandered into the woods quite the contrary they stated the dogs found no evidence they left the yard and it would appear as of yet either have human searchers .

Time will reveal more and if when time allows its what they do or don't do regarding possible further searches using cadaver dogs that will give a better picture of direction . As I'm sure the RCMP will want to find the remains if all other avenues have been explored and turn up dead-ends .

As Simon and Garfunkel sing in the sound of silence .. even in silence there is something to be heard

Yes, very true, we don’t know if anything changed after July 16th, where the investigation is headed. That’d be just as impossible to predict as prior to July 16th, no criminality believed to be involved. Who would’ve thought??!!!

 

[MistyWaters]

Only if LE can prove a pattern of abuse (even verbal abuse is considered domestic violence [DV] in some countries, would have to check CA) led to them fleeing and becoming even more "vulnerable" and their vulnerability led them being abducted and/or perishing out in the elements.

Not sure if they have any proof of DM's patterns in treatment of her kids if MBM isn't talking and was the only other adult in the home, and is scared, and his mother and brother nearby also aren't talking.

However, we don't know if family and friends and their teachers or others in the community who were interviewed may have given LE something along those lines as their opinion/observation, and it wasn't enough to act on at first, and DM nipped things in the bud by taking courses for his multiple "issues".

It doesn't mean the investigation hasn't gotten legs under it in this direction since their last statement in July re no evidence to indicate crimes being committed.

They could be building a case against DM if/when they have all their ducks in a row, and if/then, it would be a resounding yes if under this scenario DM committing DV led to their disappearance, which would be criminal.

It's some sort of solid proof they need of DV by DM against Lilly and Jack, which maybe they have gotten from CPS, if no one else can or is willing to speak up about what they might or might not have witnessed.

Other than MBM saying he helped alot with the raising of them when she was overwhelmed and DM saying evem more on that note along with seeking professional help for all his personal issues, which went beyond anger management, IIRC, which was recently posted upthread. The list was kind of long and included parenting, child safety, drug use and violence.

I just had a thought re the list of issues and what he said he had signed up for....

What if that had come from the school > CPS as a first step in addressing their home life situation there were concerns about, that they required him to get that help and that is in the memo, because he lived with them and was parenting them and he was the wild card.

And people involved in their lives knew it, and MBM was powerless to get him to stop this or start that, for reasons discussed above.

I am not a lawyer (IANAL) but I have worked in the legal field in the US, and IMO, any evidence of poor or neglectful parenting, coercive control exerted over the household with minor children, DV even if "only" verbal, living in fear of him, etc., which could be proven to have led to their disappearance or deaths would be a crime.

Unfortunately, there is no evidence we've heard of thus far from the adults living on the property of yelling or whatnot that morning, but again, it doesn't mean there wasn't a low veiled threat leveled at them to be quiet or else.

MOO

In both Canada and the US, a person is considered innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt. How could a murder charge be proven beyond reasonable doubt based on a scenario that the children allegedly perished in the forest because they were scared of DM? Maybe they didn’t know their mom phoned the school early that morning and they hid because they hated going to school? Maybe they saw a butterfly or a squirrel, chasing it, hoping to catch it until they were eventually too exhausted to find their way back home? How can anyone ever know what was on their minds when whatever happened that day without reasonable doubt being raised?

I just can’t imagine a prosecutor deeming it worth a try, or a judge approving such a charge because it would be based solely on speculation, as opposed to evidence. I don’t think anyone wants a justice system going down that road.
JMO

 

[Cedars]

I‘m not so sure that Majority Crimes involvement is a sure fire indicator that a major crime occurred. I think it’s a unit with high level investigative resources including senior investigators who are able to apply more focus on this missing children’s case than the RCMP detachment at Shubenacadie ever could. As the RCMP is a national organization, they’re able to work together to assist small town departments in this way.

In the beginning it was said they took over a missing persons investigation if foul play was suspected, as it is in all missing persons cases, until ruled out. I think we all agree it was highly appropriate for that avenue to be thoroughly investigated.
JMO

I agree. IMO a major crimes unit is involved immediately in a case where foul play might be involved, order to ensure the forensic evidence is collected to the highest standard.

Too many cases have been permanently muddled because a forensic team was only called in after suspicions were raised or bodies found, but by then the forensic evidence had been lost/ destroyed by time and by other people at the scene, ....famously Jon Benet, West Memphis 3...

These days, cases are won or lost on forensic evidence, but the other element is proving intent.

For example, it is rare to charge parents in hot car deaths, because intent to harm is not present.

JMO

 

[shetalksinstereo]

I’d think it would be more like - that child was able to leave and go missing which was neglectful parenting because they lacked supervision.

The action prompting would be considered also if it was significant

But even yelling at a child out of anger shouldn’t result in one not providing supervision

Do I make sense here ha

Parents charged after child is killed crossing the street

Here is an interesting and recent case of parents being charged for the death of their child.

 

[MistyWaters]

Parents charged after child is killed crossing the street

Here is an interesting and recent case of parents being charged for the death of their child.

That’s in the US, a different country with a legal system geared towards punishment. Innocent until proven guilty, I wonder if the parents will be convicted.

 

[MistyWaters]

For example, it is rare to charge parents in hot car deaths, because intent to harm is not present.

JMO

That is true. What people feel is appropriate for punishment is dependant on the laws of the land where the incident occurred.

Canada’s justice system is built upon rehabilitating those who commit crimes, with the (wishful thinking or not) intent that criminals will eventually become law-abiding and productive members of society. Therefore examples such as hot car deaths or sending children off to school, something that’s not illegal or lacking in deliberate intent to harm is very difficult to convict as the offender does not requires rehabilitation.

As example of the vast differences between USA and Canada, the killer of Libby and Abby in Indiana received a 130 year sentence. If that same crime had occurred in Canada he would’ve been sentenced to max LWOP of 25 years regardless of how many teens he murdered, although he may’ve also been eligible for a ‘dangerous offender’ designation.

 

[su5ie]

Parents charged after child is killed crossing the street

Here is an interesting and recent case of parents being charged for the death of their child.

The irony in the poem from this article is heartbreaking

I think there is a case of racism here from information in the article and although it does confirm a yes answer to my previous question. I'm not so sure if it's right

 

[su5ie]

That is true. What people feel is appropriate for punishment is dependant on the laws of the land where the incident occurred.

Canada’s justice system is built upon rehabilitating those who commit crimes, with the (wishful thinking or not) intent that criminals will eventually become law-abiding and productive members of society. Therefore examples such as hot car deaths or sending children off to school, something that’s not illegal or lacking in deliberate intent to harm is very difficult to convict as the offender does not requires rehabilitation.

As example of the vast differences between USA and Canada, the killer of Libby and Abby in Indiana received a 130 year sentence. If that same crime had occurred in Canada he would’ve been sentenced to max LWOP of 25 years regardless of how many teens he murdered, although he may’ve also been eligible for a ‘dangerous offender’ designation.

Ireland shows similar leniency which I do think is wrong . But there is pros and cons of each system personally I am glad if a murderer of children recieves a sentence of 130 years but if an injustice occurs which there is whispers of in this case if I have the correct one , well that's a hell of a punishment if you are mistaken for the perp

 

[Sillybilly]

As example of the vast differences between USA and Canada, the killer of Libby and Abby in Indiana received a 130 year sentence. If that same crime had occurred in Canada he would’ve been sentenced to max LWOP of 25 years regardless of how many teens he murdered, although he may’ve also been eligible for a ‘dangerous offender’ designation.

<rsbm>

In Canada LWOP just means they can't apply for parole until that 25 years is up. Two examples:

Clifford Olson was convicted in 1982 and died in prison Sept 2011. He had previously applied for parole and it was never granted.

Paul Bernardo remains in prison since Sept 1995. (He has applied for parole 3 times in the past and it was never granted. I suspect he will never be granted parole and like Olson will die in prison)

Neither of them were ever granted parole after the 25 years was up.