CANADA Canada - Jack, 4 & Lilly Sullivan, 6, Vulnerable, wandered from home 10am, Gairloch Rd, Landsdowne Station, Pictou County, NS, 2 May 2025 #7

  • #241
As of today, NS restrictions in the woods have been lifted in some counties including Pictou, where Lansdowne Stn is located.

Woods Restrictions to be Lifted in Pictou, Colchester Counties​

“The risk of wildfires is now low enough in Pictou and Colchester counties to allow restrictions on travel and activities in the woods to be lifted today, September 11.”
 
  • #242
As of today, NS restrictions in the woods have been lifted in some counties including Pictou, where Lansdowne Stn is located.

Woods Restrictions to be Lifted in Pictou, Colchester Counties​

“The risk of wildfires is now low enough in Pictou and Colchester counties to allow restrictions on travel and activities in the woods to be lifted today, September 11.”
Please god this can enable another search and hopefully may include cadaver dogs .

I do think if the cadaver dogs are never used and certainly if another search for remains is not done it indicates LE aren't entirely convinced the kids remains are in the woods imo
 
  • #243
Going back to some of the details and subtleties, to refresh my memory, in this MSM article on August 22, updated the next day:

  • It says (Bolded and/or Underlined by me):
"According to one document, sworn by Cpl. Charlene Jordan Curl of the RCMPs Northeast Nova Scotia major crime unit, the children were first reported missing on 10:01 a.m. on May 2 from their home in rural Lansdowne Station, N.S., by their mother Malehya Brooks-Murray..

Brooks-Murray told police she believed the two children had wandered away from home, but the exact time she said she thought they went missing was redacted. Police were on the scene at 10:27 a.m.
....
RCMP conducted at least four polygraphs during their investigation — the first two were on May 12 with the children’s parents.... Martell’s polygraph “indicated he was truthful,” as did the test for Brooks-Murray that found she was truthful when answering specific questions, although the list of questions is redacted in the document.
....
An unidentified investigator’s comment included at the end of a section on the results of both of those polygraphs says, “At this point in the investigation Jack and Lilly’s disappearance is not believed to be criminal in nature.”

  • That it was an unidentified investigator's comment included at the end of the section on the documented results of their polygraphs only, seems to be just an opinion in a comment on polygraph results which are not evidentiary, and not LE saying they believe this to be true, unless they took it and ran with it repeating it in MSM. IMO, it just seems kind of weak, the comment by an unknown polygrapher, being made into a statement by LE over which there has been so much discussion, if this ^^^^ is the only origin for that statement.
"Martell told The Canadian Press on May 28 that he had passed a polygraph test, but the RCMP declined at the time to confirm or deny his claim"
  • Therefore, DM claimed something in MSM that RCMP declined at the time to confirm or deny.
....
Meanwhile, on June 10, the children’s stepgrandmother, Janie MacKenzie, underwent a polygraph examination but another document notes that her “physiology was not suitable for analysis and an opinion on the polygraph examination was not rendered.”
....
Results from polygraphs.... are not admissible in Canadian courts, but the machines are considered an investigative tool."
  • Since I've wondered what "physiology was not suitable for analysis" meant, I looked it up and it says here:

"Exclusion Criteria
Age: Individuals under the age of 12 will not be considered suitable for the polygraph test due to the cognitive and emotional immaturity that may affect the reliability of their responses during the examination.
Physical Health Conditions: Individuals suffering from medical conditions that may interfere with their ability to respond consistently during the test or that may jeopardize their health during the process. This includes, but is not limited to:
Acute Respiratory Conditions...Significant acute or chronic respiratory diseases can profoundly affect a subject’s ability to undergo a polygraph test.
Severe Cardiovascular Diseases...Severe cardiovascular conditions such as the use of pacemakers, history of heart attacks, and severe hypertension can compromise an individual’s ability to safely and effectively undergo a polygraph test.
Neurological Issues Affecting Comprehension and Communication...Neurological disorders that compromise cognitive, comprehension, or communication abilities can render an individual unfit for polygraph tests, as these conditions can significantly affect the ability to interpret and respond to questions coherently and accurately. Specific disorders include: Schizophrenia... Delusional Disorder (Paranoid Type)...Schizophreniform Disorder:...Schizoaffective Disorder: ...Impact of Neurological Problems on the Polygraph Test
Influence of Psychoactive Substances on Polygraph Test Results...The consumption of psychoactive substances significantly affects the reliability of polygraph tests. Substances such as alcohol and illicit drugs alter the body’s physiological responses, which are precisely what the polygraph measures to assess the veracity of an individual’s responses. Individuals under the effects of alcohol or drugs are not considered suitable for testing..... Alcohol: Stimulant Drugs (such as cocaine and amphetamines): ...Crack (a form of smoked cocaine)...MDMA (Ecstasy)... Cannabis: ...Opiates (such as heroin and morphine)
Identification of Substances in the Body Through Urine Testing...To ensure the integrity and accuracy of a polygraph test, it is crucial to determine if a subject has consumed substances that could alter their physiological responses. An effective way to do this is through the use of urine tests, which can detect the presence of drugs and alcohol in the body.
Informed Consent for Conducting Polygraph Tests...Individuals who do not provide written consent cannot undergo a polygraph test. Informed consent is a fundamental pillar in the administration of polygraph tests, ensuring that all participants are fully informed about the nature, procedures, potential risks, and consequences of the test before it is conducted."

  • Because LE said she "underwent" a polygraph examination, that presumes the last factor doesn't apply as she apparently consented.
  • So one or more of the other "exclusion criteria" should apply ^^^^, which leads me to believe DM's mother Janie who lived nearby enough to Lilly and Jack's home to say that she "heard them playing that morning" or whatever else LE asked her, could not be verified during a polygraph test, for whatever reason(s), an investigative tool LE wanted to use on her, which could have given them "some backup" for lack of a better term, for them to vet her statement(s).
  • ETA: So here we have 3 of the adults on the property the morning they disappeared who made statements about what they heard, and none of which when you look at the details (e.g., DM's responses appeared to be truthful but LE would not confirm he had "passed", MBM appeared to be truthful except possibly when asked specific questions which LE redacted, and stepgrandmother Janie, who consented and presumably answered their questions, but had some other issue(s) that prevented LE from drawing any "investigative tool" conclusions from her testimony.
  • So each of the polygraph results for the 3 of them there that morning seem to have subtleties or caveats, and none "passed with flying colors" for lack of a better term, IMO reading this, and LE only can take this into consideration during their investigation, which could be why it's taking so long, they're just not sure if what any of them said was 100% true or not based on polygraph results and presumably other evidence they're still running down, IMO.
MOO
Brilliantly laid out post and in a logically thought out process , thanks for the time you spent on this .
 
  • #244
(Edited to add—Su5ie and I had the same thought.)
In the court documents, Daniel said that while searching the woods he thought he heard Jack and Lilly scream. (Globe & Mail article.) He stopped to listen, but a helicopter drowned out the sounds. The newspaper didn’t say the exact time or place he heard the screams.

Previously, he said that when the police arrived, he had to wait to be escorted by an officer when searching. Officers arrived first, then the SAR team was called in, including the helicopter. So, he may have only been within a few hundred metres from home, not permitted to go very far close to where the SAR team was, imo.

So that, plus Lilly’s blanket found a kilometre away and her possible boot print are the biggest clues, imo.

Another detail is that Jack apparently would sit down when in the woods if he didn’t want to walk further. If he did that, it would be a big obstacle for Lilly. We know she used a high-pitched scream when communicating, and it might be hard to reason with a tired four year old. What could she do if Jack refused to go further?

I’ve had the SAR helicopter fly back and forth right over my house and it’s incredibly loud. I had to remember to breathe. But helicopters in my area are not unexpected because I live on the bay, I’d think in Lansdowne it would be unusual and possibly scary to a child, imo. So they possibly hid?

It makes me agree with people who think they’re not too far from home, just possibly in a difficult to reach space.


I took another read of the G&M article and I don't remember seeing this line ( amazing what I don't see first time round ) DM stated he thought he heard lilly and jack scream but when he stopped to listen a helicopter drown out every other sound

I wonder at what time this was and asking for opinions, when I hear a scream or people talking loudly I can generally hear what direction it's coming from . Even if the sound was drowned out within a few minutes would DM not have been able to judge direction in that split second ? And for reference I'm deaf medically in my left ear and I can still hear direction. Can others tell if this is true for them ?


View attachment 613972
Funny that you were thinking of the same detail! I think the acoustics depend on the features of the environment. I live on the bay with the North Mountain behind me, so a loud noise 300 metres northwest in front of me (fireworks, for example) can sound as if they’re behind my property.

The question I have is that I think we’ve all seen in searches that if there’s any possible sound from the victims, everyone is directed to be quiet so that they can locate them and respond…so why didn’t we hear about the screams from other sources? The police and possibly the SAR ground team may have been there. It’s odd to me that we’re hearing of this now, imo.

And I can’t imagine Malehya leaving if DM heard her children possibly screaming. I’d personally insist on going into the forest with a megaphone if I were her.
 
  • #245
I thought I'd spend a bit of time weighing up some of the information that supports or doesn't support (what I think are) the two most likely scenarios, mostly just to help me get my own head around it:

Scenario 1: Wandered into the woods


For:

- They had the opportunity to wander off, given the lack of supervision and the apparently unlocked sliding door.

- Although she didn't actually see them, JM says she heard the children outside that morning, and the timelines she, DM and MBM reported publicly are pretty consistent.

- The partial blanket found in the search is confirmed to be Lilly's, and the boot print on the pipeline trail is consistent with her shoe size.

- The density of the woods, the number of fallen trees, etc. mean both that the children could easily have become lost, and that they feasibly could have been missed by searchers.

- Lilly's backpack being missing could suggest she left of her own accord, and their missing boots look like the type of shoes that both children could have put on by themselves fairly easily.


Against:

- Given the tight timeline, the rough terrain, and the kids possibly not being dressed appropriately for the weather, it seems unlikely that the children could or would have gone very far, which at least in theory makes it more likely that they would have been found.

- For all we know, the blanket and boot print could have been there since before the children disappeared, and no other trace of them (like items of clothing, the backpack, or anything that might have been in it) has been found.

- MBM leaving the area on day 2 is very odd, as is her family's apparently immediate suspicion of DM.

- Tracking dogs couldn't follow their scent beyond the driveway (although I'd note that that also happened in Asha Degree's case, even though multiple witnesses saw her walking along the highway).


Scenario 2: Homicide by one or both parents


For:

- The prior CPS involvement and reported background information (although this is pretty limited) suggest that all was not well in the home for some time. The children's apparent autism and/or behavioural issues are also statistically a risk factor. Purely statistically speaking, Lilly and Jack fit the profile of at-risk children in quite a few ways.

- There are no (publicly) confirmed sightings of the children by anyone other than their parents after about 2:30pm the day before they were reported missing.

- Again, MBM abruptly leaving the area and cutting off all contact with DM at a time where there should have been every reason to hope that the children would be found alive does give the impression that she knows something that the public doesn't.


Against:

- RCMP saying that they don't have evidence at this of a crime having been committed is obviously a big one.

- Both parents passed polygraphs.

- It would be surprising for both parents to have stuck to their stories and RCMP not have found any inconsistencies after this long (thinking about other recent cases like Jayden Spicer and Melina Frattolin, their parents' stories started unravelling very quickly).


Overall, I don't know what to think. There isn't really any conclusive evidence in favour of either scenario (or if there is, it hasn't been made public). I just hope that the RCMP knows a lot more than we do, and that there'll eventually be a resolution in this case.

That is reasonable, imo.

I believe they wandered off, but I don’t believe the timeline is accurate.

A couple of other details might muddy the waters: Malehya told police that both children went to bed wearing the same clothes they wore that day when they were seen in public—so possibly if they’re found, they’ll be in those clothes.

I personally find that odd because if the children were outside playing, ticks are a concern— in addition it being unusual that they weren’t bathed and dressed in fresh clothes (imo).

Also, DM said that two of his sweaters are missing. So the concern might be that they could be found wearing them and have his DNA on them.
 
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  • #246
That is reasonable, imo.

I believe they wandered off, but I don’t believe the timeline is accurate.

A couple of other details might muddy the waters: Malehya told police that both children went to bed wearing the same clothes they wore that day when they were seen in public—so possibly if they’re found, they’ll be in those clothes.

I personally find that odd because if the children were outside playing, ticks are a concern— in addition it being unusual that they weren’t bathed and dressed in fresh clothes (imo).

Also, DM said that two of his sweaters are missing. So the concern might be that they could be found wearing them and have his DNA on them.

This missing children case is like a walk back in time to the days before home security. What a difference it would’ve made if the family had home security cameras and the morning of May 2nd the children had been captured on camera, how they left, on foot or taken away, what direction, the family’s actions and reactions, was the blanket taken by someone from the garbage receptacle, and were DMs sweaters scoffed. Virtually all the answers to the prevailing questions now over four months could’ve been answered that very same morning.
 
  • #247
The chances of them being alive is little to none but they need to find them either way (I hope they are alive but realistically they've been gone since may:( )
 
  • #248
(Edited to add—Su5ie and I had the same thought.)
In the court documents, Daniel said that while searching the woods he thought he heard Jack and Lilly scream. (Globe & Mail article.) He stopped to listen, but a helicopter drowned out the sounds. The newspaper didn’t say the exact time or place he heard the screams.

Previously, he said that when the police arrived, he had to wait to be escorted by an officer when searching. Officers arrived first, then the SAR team was called in, including the helicopter. So, he may have only been within a few hundred metres from home, not permitted to go very far close to where the SAR team was, imo.

So that, plus Lilly’s blanket found a kilometre away and her possible boot print are the biggest clues, imo.

Another detail is that Jack apparently would sit down when in the woods if he didn’t want to walk further. If he did that, it would be a big obstacle for Lilly. We know she used a high-pitched scream when communicating, and it might be hard to reason with a tired four year old. What could she do if Jack refused to go further?

I’ve had the SAR helicopter fly back and forth right over my house and it’s incredibly loud. I had to remember to breathe. But helicopters in my area are not unexpected because I live on the bay, I’d think in Lansdowne it would be unusual and possibly scary to a child, imo. So they possibly hid?

It makes me agree with people who think they’re not too far from home, just possibly in a difficult to reach space.



Funny that you were thinking of the same detail! I think the acoustics depend on the features of the environment. I live on the bay with the North Mountain behind me, so a loud noise 300 metres northwest in front of me (fireworks, for example) can sound as if they’re behind my property.

The question I have is that I think we’ve all seen in searches that if there’s any possible sound from the victims, everyone is directed to be quiet so that they can locate them and respond…so why didn’t we hear about the screams from other sources? The police and possibly the SAR ground team may have been there. It’s odd to me that we’re hearing of this now, imo.

And I can’t imagine Malehya leaving if DM heard her children possibly screaming. I’d personally insist on going into the forest with a megaphone if I were her.
Great ideas here, thank you! I had never heard that they (DM?) might have heard screaming coming from youngsters or a liitle girl which he said was drowned out by S&R helivopters!! Oyyyyy

The potential fate of Liilly & Jack on that fateful day is now too eerily similar for me to Summer Wells, a young girl living rurally in a mixed family sitiation who disappeared from home on a day right before starting back to school, with a very "red flag" situation at home, IMO, with bio mom living with a stepdad who had molested girls in his family historically, and the stories and apparent happenstance and her mom going mute or whatever (different circumstances claimed) after her daughter's disapearance, but same awful late in the case details neighbors heard screaming right before Summer vanished... and she has not been found to this day, sadly years on.
 
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  • #249
Funny that you were thinking of the same detail! I think the acoustics depend on the features of the environment. I live on the bay with the North Mountain behind me, so a loud noise 300 metres northwest in front of me (fireworks, for example) can sound as if they’re behind my property.

The question I have is that I think we’ve all seen in searches that if there’s any possible sound from the victims, everyone is directed to be quiet so that they can locate them and respond…so why didn’t we hear about the screams from other sources? The police and possibly the SAR ground team may have been there. It’s odd to me that we’re hearing of this now, imo.

And I can’t imagine Malehya leaving if DM heard her children possibly screaming. I’d personally insist on going into the forest with a megaphone if I were her.

[bbm]

not sure if you mean we haven't heard about Daniel hearing the scream-like sound before now? but we most definitely have - I remember it
 
  • #250
And come back with a heartfelt answer and the excuse you would wholeheartedly feel appropriate if it were your children or those of a friend

I can think of several cases in which parents whose child disappeared in the forest, even decades ago, still sometimes go back to that forest, and I do agree that not continuing to search, at least sometimes for awhile, is not typical. Most families search at least for awhile, if they think the missing children might still be in the forest. The desire for an "answer" and just to find them usually overpowers other fears. But -- maybe not always.

The potential fate of Liilly & Jack on that fateful day is now too eerily similar for me to Summer Wells, a young girl living rurally in a mixed family sitiation who disappeared from home on a day right before starting back to school, with a very "red flag" situation at home, IMO, with bio mom living with a stepdad

In the Summer Wells case, he is her biological father. I agree, the cases have numerous similarities.
 
  • #251
Mackenzie said she also hasn't seen her two other grandchildren, Martell's kids from a previous relationship, since the disappearance. She remarked that she went from seeing her five grandchildren regularly to not being able to see any of them, and yearns to be called "Granny" once again.


What, if 2 children (Jack and Lilly) disappeared, so that two other children (DM's bio children) can no longer exercise their visitation rights? Maybe, the mother of DM's bio children had an interest in this?
 
  • #252
[bbm]

not sure if you mean we haven't heard about Daniel hearing the scream-like sound before now? but we most definitely have - I remember it
I must have missed it. Was it early in the case? I only heard of it recently. Do you have a link? I searched and can only find references to Lilly screaming before she vanished, and DM screaming for them in the woods when searching for them.
 
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  • #253
I must have missed it. Was it early in the case? I only heard of it recently. Do you have a link? I searched and can only find references to Lilly screaming before she vanished, and DM screaming for them in the woods when searching for them.

This is a paywalled Globe and Mail article from Aug22nd, back when the court documents were released.
What DM said, basically is that he thought he heard the children scream when he was searching the woods but when he stopped to listen couldn’t hear over the sound of helicopters.
 
  • #254

This is a paywalled Globe and Mail article from Aug22nd, back when the court documents were released.
What DM said, basically is that he thought he heard the children scream when he was searching the woods but when he stopped to listen couldn’t hear over the sound of helicopters.

Yes, I read that one. @LadyL said we heard about that scream in the woods previous to that article, but I can’t find anything.
 
  • #255
[bbm]

not sure if you mean we haven't heard about Daniel hearing the scream-like sound before now? but we most definitely have - I remember it
I forgot about DM saying he heard screaming, but now I'm vaguely recalling it. So much of what he said early on was in longish videos, and I didn't listen to all of them, and alot IIRC wasn't transcribed, so it didn't register very deep for me since I'm very text oriented.

I also may have been away from the thread when it was discussed.

I wonder if the location where the witness said they saw the 2 children walking along the road would be close enough for him to have heard screaming, IF it was them and the woman tried to get them to get into the car and they resisted.

JMO
 
  • #256
That is reasonable, imo.

I believe they wandered off, but I don’t believe the timeline is accurate.

A couple of other details might muddy the waters: Malehya told police that both children went to bed wearing the same clothes they wore that day when they were seen in public—so possibly if they’re found, they’ll be in those clothes.

I personally find that odd because if the children were outside playing, ticks are a concern— in addition it being unusual that they weren’t bathed and dressed in fresh clothes (imo).

Also, DM said that two of his sweaters are missing. So the concern might be that they could be found wearing them and have his DNA on them.
Those two details bother me when I consider whether this is an innocent wandering or direct or indirect homicide

For me may the 1st is the timeline I would follow if I were a detective . Working from the carpack cctv which is what the rcmp have done I would imagine. So far we have not heard of any independent witnesses seeing the kids after this time .

So I ask myself can we believe janie ? What would her interest be in lying ? Without verification from a polygraph do we just trust ?

Is the break up of mbm and DM a ruse so stories don't sound exactly the same ? To much likeness can raise red flags . Do we trust a self confessed drug abuser ? Do we trust a mom who she and others have stated gets overwhelmed and has mental health issues ?

If I allow my mind to build a dark picture, I can think of a few things that when added together make up a not so innocent demise of the children

Sounds of vehicle coming and going
2 missing sweaters
Kids unchanged from day before ,
Cps involvement
Janie raking for a pool late that evening
Daniel repairing fence late that evening
Maleyha doing laundry in grandmothers late that evening
Drug history
No scent gotten from dogs of kids
Mother refusing to talk ,leaving next day
Searchers finding no belonging or trace of children
Difficult terrain for kids to navigate
Multiple black eyes
School staff providing for the kids
Maleyha going to bed early but still needing to lie in
Maleyha not knowing what time DM went to bed
Accusations thrown by family members


viewed together it doesn't give a great image . The kids being described as in the same clothes as those seen on cctv bothers me for a number of reasons and one being I seem to recall ,when the kids went missing there was not a clear description of what jack was wearing . I remember thinking surely his mother knows what he went to bed in .

Now I know kids can remove clothing if they are too hot during the night but if so the clothes be easily located as they are usually in or around the bed so I was still inclined to wonder why they hadn't got a clearer picture of clothing worn . Even lillys clothes were scant at first and it was alluded that hers were seen briefly because she popped in and out of the room

On one hand I know kids can hide from searchers but on the other hand everything just seems like a lot of coincidence if nothing nefarious happened 🤔

I wonder how the custody hearing went re meadow
 
  • #257
RCMP conducted at least four polygraphs during their investigation — the first two were on May 12 with the children’s parents.... Martell’s polygraph “indicated he was truthful,” as did the test for Brooks-Murray that found she was truthful when answering specific questions, although the list of questions is redacted in the document.
What do you think that means? Martell's indicated he was truthful, but Brooks-Murray's indicated she was truthful when answering specific questions? Does that mean she was only truthful part of the time? And Daniel was all of the time?
 
  • #258
What do you think that means? Martell's indicated he was truthful, but Brooks-Murray's indicated she was truthful when answering specific questions? Does that mean she was only truthful part of the time? And Daniel was all of the time?
Yes I've been wondering what that means too
 
  • #259
What do you think that means? Martell's indicated he was truthful, but Brooks-Murray's indicated she was truthful when answering specific questions? Does that mean she was only truthful part of the time? And Daniel was all of the time?
Here’s what I believe happened.
There were many documents released in response to a FOIP request from several media outlets.
The information pertaining to the polygraphs was not on one report, or one document, but rather on a different document per examination. So DM’s might have been phrased one way, MBM’s another, and so on. We don’t even know if it was the same author of each report or summary of the polygraphs findings, and different authors may choose different wording.
Add to this, when the documents were released, there were some redactions, as deemed necessary by the authorities to protect certain elements of the reports. What I picture is some blacked out lines here and there.
Reporters receive a stack of different documents, written at different times, possibly by different authors, with redactions, and have to synthesize all the info into a cohesive news article. They want to be as accurate as possible, so they find a way to state pretty much exactly what was said in the reports. I believe this would account for the slight differences in the reporting of the released court documents, from one news outlet to another.

I think it’s easy for us to make more of the difference in reporting of the truthfulness of DM vs MBM. I would bet they were asked basically the same questions and the polygraph results were considered equally as truthful.

That’s my take on it, IMO
 
  • #260
What do you think that means? Martell's indicated he was truthful, but Brooks-Murray's indicated she was truthful when answering specific questions? Does that mean she was only truthful part of the time? And Daniel was all of the time?



I think this it’s just poorly worded. Polygraphs ask only specific questions, never unspecific questions. The writer states she answered truthfully. But as the list of specific questions was redacted I think the writer is attempting to indicate they don’t know which questions she answered truthfully. JMO


CBC stated they both passed. Clear and concise.

“On May 12, Martell and Brooks-Murray did separate polygraph tests with different officers. According to court documents filed by the RCMP, both passed.”
 

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