CANADA Canada - Jack, 4 & Lilly Sullivan, 6, Vulnerable, wandered from home 10am, Gairloch Rd, Landsdowne Station, Pictou County, NS, 2 May 2025 #7

[MistyWaters]

Law enforcement in both the US and in Canada very rarely if ever strongly express they "believe" someone is guilty of a crime or involved in that crime before they've collected enough evidence to both arrest *AND* achieve a conviction for said crime. That runs counter to good investigation.

This is why they are very very guarded about what they release as statements during the investigation. The statements are strategic in the investigation as well as attempts to calm the anxious public. They are very well trained in exactly how to say something and say it without saying something else. Its often in the interests of the investigation to keep the general public "off their tail" so to speak.

Judges issuing warrants also know how to "read" these statements when issuing warrants. There are ways of saying things without directly saying them. Judges also know FULL WELL the value and weight polygraphs carry, which is next to none. They are chiefly investigative tools meant to guide the investigation. You don't often see them used at trial for reason. Too many sociopaths "pass" them easily, though there really IS no actual pass or fail. Those words are for the uninitiated or those not trained in how polygraphs are utilized in investigations.

What you will not hear is "We believe the parent/step parent of the missing child is guilty of his disappearance" or "we believe Monique Tepe's ex-husband is involved in her murder" before they have gathered the evidence and effected an arrest. Except for the very rare occasion when its used *strategically* for the investigation (NOT for the curiosity of the general public) in order to flush out evidence like a suspected murderer being surveilled moving a body or murder weapon, it just isnt done. Defense lawyers know how to use the "locked in and didnt adequately investigate other suspects" to their advantage and some criminals have been acquited on that basis. Investigators and about all law enforcement officers are trained in this.

Just something to consider for those who want to keep the options open and not close any doors based on statements about polygraph tests.

It is what it is. Wishing it weren't so doesnt change that. Everything still comes back to "might, might not".

I don’t believe police in Canada and the US can be compared at all. Far more information is released in the US with every case I’ve followed. I assure you I’m aware of their processes. In Canada LE are absolutely quiet in releasing info throughout the investigation process up until the trial. But an example of what the RCMP did believe, maybe at one time, was that the children had wandered into the woods.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I don’t believe police in Canada and the US can be compared at all. Far more information is released in the US with every case I’ve followed. I assure you I’m aware of their processes. In Canada LE are absolutely quiet in releasing info throughout the investigation process up until the trial. But an example of what the RCMP did believe, maybe at one time, was that the children had wandered into the woods.

I agree, Canadian LE are far more tight lipped (much more like British LE) than American LE. It's been this was as long as I've followed true crime, and that's been the last 50+ years. In a sensitive case like this where the missing are two children, they're bound to be even more silent than usual. The old stand-by "we're exploring all possible avenues" is about all we're going to get until they have more concrete info to share.

jmo

 

[su5ie]

Whether or not polygraphs were "passed" the fact of the matter is they are inadmissible in court for a reason

If they were foolproof there would be no need for trials or investigations as a polygraph machine would be all that's needed to determine guilt or innocence

They are a device designed to read physiological responses in order to gauge psychological state . The higher the reading is in a stressed state the bigger the indicator of a lie . Meaning most people hiding a secret such as murder will have a high physiological response ,hence the rapid movement of the needle .
But the way people respond to stress and being put under pressure is as varied as individuality everyone is different
All imo

 

[Bigditch]

Canada is not Mayberry. A polygraph defense in Canadian law would be as useful as a fistful of dirt.

 

[Serononin]

Whether or not polygraphs were "passed" the fact of the matter is they are inadmissible in court for a reason

If they were foolproof there would be no need for trials or investigations as a polygraph machine would be all that's needed to determine guilt or innocence

They are a device designed to read physiological responses in order to gauge psychological state . The higher the reading is in a stressed state the bigger the indicator of a lie . Meaning most people hiding a secret such as murder will have a high physiological response ,hence the rapid movement of the needle .
But the way people respond to stress and being put under pressure is as varied as individuality everyone is different
All imo

There's also the fact that while we've heard that the polygraphs indicated that the subjects responded honestly to the questions asked, we don't know what the questions actually were since they're all redacted in the ITO documents

 

[Serononin]

Good idea about rewatching interviews with a different reception frequency level. Which 7 took polygraphs? We know DM’s mom did not (declined or LE decision?) due to her anxiety I believe. So - DM, MBM, bio father…who are the other four? Thank you!

I think the phrasing they used was that DM's mother wasn't polygraphed because her "physiology was not suitable for examination", so probably something to do with a medical condition or medication that would affect her heart rate/blood pressure/other bodily responses

 

[su5ie]

I think the phrasing they used was that DM's mother wasn't polygraphed because her "physiology was not suitable for examination", so probably something to do with a medical condition or medication that would affect her heart rate/blood pressure/other bodily responses

Further proof that physiology and the ability to control stress response are what a polygraph reads not some magic truth serum

Most worldwide intelligence agencies train their operatives in physiological control so they don't fall victim to an enemy state under polygraph and give away state secrets or buckle under pressurised interrogation.

I have stated before that ones ability to lie determines whether or not they can fool people into thinking they are truthful . A simple example would be poker face at a high stakes card game . Most sociopaths could pass a lie detector too as they are used to having no emotional reaction to things most would find distressing

Some studies have suggested games like call of duty and Gta have desensitized young children and teens to violence so they are more likely to have a non reactive state when faced with similar in RL

So depending on the psychological make up of the person and what they have been exposed to , it will influence results.

While I have to take it as face value that each person was deemed truthful I can also have doubts to the tests reliability jmho

 

[katydid23]

It struck me odd that LE is now commenting upon the 'COMPLEXITY' of this case. Two young kids wandering off and getting lost---is that considered complex? I think there must be more to the story and investigators seem to think so too. imo



“It’s extremely rare. I’ve never seen it across my career. But while it’s rare, what’s the part that isn’t rare is the complexity of the case, like why it’s taking so long, because these investigations have to be done in a methodical approach,” Dan Morrow said in a year-end interview with Global News. “It started to generate a lot of national media attention and even international.” "

 

[su5ie]

It struck me odd that LE is now commenting upon the 'COMPLEXITY' of this case. Two young kids wandering off and getting lost---is that considered complex? I think there must be more to the story and investigators seem to think so too. imo



“It’s extremely rare. I’ve never seen it across my career. But while it’s rare, what’s the part that isn’t rare is the complexity of the case, like why it’s taking so long, because these investigations have to be done in a methodical approach,” Dan Morrow said in a year-end interview with Global News. “It started to generate a lot of national media attention and even international.” "

I like to get posters views on your question.

Is two kids wandering considered complex ?

 

[Bigditch]

It struck me odd that LE is now commenting upon the 'COMPLEXITY' of this case. Two young kids wandering off and getting lost---is that considered complex? I think there must be more to the story and investigators seem to think so too. imo



“It’s extremely rare. I’ve never seen it across my career. But while it’s rare, what’s the part that isn’t rare is the complexity of the case, like why it’s taking so long, because these investigations have to be done in a methodical approach,” Dan Morrow said in a year-end interview with Global News. “It started to generate a lot of national media attention and even international.” "

Complexity. Yes I agree it is an odd choice of words.

 

[Ontario Mom]

It struck me odd that LE is now commenting upon the 'COMPLEXITY' of this case. Two young kids wandering off and getting lost---is that considered complex? I think there must be more to the story and investigators seem to think so too. imo



“It’s extremely rare. I’ve never seen it across my career. But while it’s rare, what’s the part that isn’t rare is the complexity of the case, like why it’s taking so long, because these investigations have to be done in a methodical approach,” Dan Morrow said in a year-end interview with Global News. “It started to generate a lot of national media attention and even international.” "

My guess is what isn't rare according to the statement - is following every lead, investigating every person that was there, any prior complaints or investigations by Children's Aid or the school, anyone that has been named, getting search warrants for phones, the house, the vehicles, electronic devices, then thoroughly going over all the data & various items, organizing ground searches and all the other things that go into investigations that the general public is most likely unaware of. All of these things would be included in what might be called the complexity of the case & why things take as long as they do.

jmo

 

[su5ie]

My guess is what isn't rare according to the statement - is following every lead, investigating every person that was there, any prior complaints or investigations by Children's Aid or the school, anyone that has been named, getting search warrants for phones, the house, the vehicles, electronic devices, then thoroughly going over all the data & various items, organizing ground searches and all the other things that go into investigations that the general public is most likely unaware of. All of these things would be included in what might be called the complexity of the case & why things take as long as they do.

jmo

The sergeant states himself that isn't the rare part and while those may have been the complexities 10 months ago .

Both these new statements seem to have a different tone and the use of the word complex doesn't seem to be connected to all of that .

He seems to separate the investigative side of things and the actual kids going missing into two separate categories when he states rare and unrare .

Katydids question was ,is two kids wandering and getting lost complex . To me that seems a straightforward enough case . Kids walked out of the yard into the forest and disappeared and yes all those other Avenues have to be looked into but we were told on July 16th that this case was not thought to be criminal and all avenues had led to nothing , have the rcmp found something in the interm that gives rise to more complexity then they thought 5 months ago

 

[Gemmie]

It struck me odd that LE is now commenting upon the 'COMPLEXITY' of this case. Two young kids wandering off and getting lost---is that considered complex? I think there must be more to the story and investigators seem to think so too. imo

“It’s extremely rare. I’ve never seen it across my career. But while it’s rare, what’s the part that isn’t rare is the complexity of the case, like why it’s taking so long, because these investigations have to be done in a methodical approach,” Dan Morrow said in a year-end interview with Global News. “It started to generate a lot of national media attention and even international.” "

BBMFF

It sure is odd IF what you are saying next is what actually happened. Because IMO, "Two young kids wandering off and getting lost" isn't complex. And they'd likely have been found long ago IMO because two are easier to find than one.

So, they still haven't been found, and yet... it's a complex case. That tells me that two young kids didn't simply wander off and got lost. It's much more than that which will come out in time to make sense of things. But I'm of the opinion that they didn't get lost. That they were aided somehow by someone (or more than one) in their disappearance. JMO

 

[Bigditch]

It might concern questions that pertain to jurisdiction.

 

[MistyWaters]

Complexity,
I think he’s just referring to the labour-intensity, including compiling and coordinating investigative activity involved in this case is certainly not typical. It’s far more complex than a typical open and shut investigation, for example comparing it to a couple of children go missing, SAR is called out and they’re found healthy and well the next day. JMO

Nova Scotia missing kids case ‘extremely rare’: RCMP officer | Globalnews.ca

Nova Scotia RCMP criminal operations officer Dan Morrow said in an interview with Global News that he hasn't seen a case quite like this in his 33 years of policing.

globalnews.ca

“Morrow said police have received approximately 1,030 tips amid the investigation, with 86 formal interviews completed.

He said more than 8,100 functioning videos have been reviewed by the team supervising the investigation, as well as seven polygraph examinations conducted, with all seven people found not to be lying.

“So there’s been a lot of work conducted behind the scenes,” Morrow said.”

 

[Slebby]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/lilly-jack-sullivan-missing-rcmp-investigation-court-documents-9.7045363

 

[Sarahlou]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/lilly-jack-sullivan-missing-rcmp-investigation-court-documents-9.7045363

So this information was true. I remember it being in an article months ago.

Brooks-Murray was asked if Martell was ever physically abusive.

“Malehya said he would try to block her, hold her down and once he pushed her,” the documents said.

“She said he would also take her phone from her when she tried to call her mom, which would sometimes be physical and hurt.”

Meanwhile, Martell told investigators they had recently been fighting about money, but otherwise their relationship was “good.”

 

[Slebby]

I imagine the stress in MBM’s life was overwhelming due to feeling powerless and trapped. The child support had disappeared when bio-dad lost his job. Her (estimated) $1,900 per month had dried up thru no fault of her own, but rather due to DM’s unfiled taxes. The only agency she’d had over her life and the lives of her children was due to her own financial independence. That was now lost, because of the dads of her children. CS was unemployed, DM had unfiled taxes and a one day per week job. I am sure there was a lot of fighting. I’d fight too. Unfortunately, it’s now confirmed she reportedly experienced physical control as well. Where was she to turn?

IMO

 

[Dreamcherry]

I like to get posters views on your question.

Is two kids wandering considered complex ?

Nope.

 

[Dreamcherry]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/lilly-jack-sullivan-missing-rcmp-investigation-court-documents-9.7045363

That first picture of MBM with DM (the thumbnail for the video near the start of the article) really highlights how much Lilly looks like her mom, wow!