Daniel Penny on Trial for manslaughter and negligent homicide of Jordan Neely

[Lilibet]

I can't imagine the fear in a mother, when a person on the train flips out and starts threatening people. A child would have been vulnerable to Neely's rage and combative outburst. If I had been on the train in that situation with my kids, Penny would have had my blessing to get Neely away from being a threat.

BBM

Absolutely. But not a dead non-threat, I hope.

JMO

 

[DS2021]

If I had been on the train in that situation with my kids, Penny would have had my blessing to get Neely away from being a threat

I think most of us agree with that. I think the debate is about whether or not the force he used was excessive.

 

[Ladyotm]

The defendant, Daniel Penny, isn't the only one who doesn't think he should be held accountable for Neely's death.
I believe it was a tragic accident that he died, although he is the one who instigated the situation by his threatening behavior and literal threats of violence to the folks on the train.

jmo

Thoughts all over the place

Verbal threats should not equate death. It sounds weird because who wants to wait until they are actually hit. I still haven't seen anything where anyone told him to knock it off. I'm not even sure I would. But I think I would if I was going to escalate the situation by physically intervening. I also think had I been a passenger I would have tried to keep a discreet eye in him, making sure I was prepared to defend myself if necessary.

I would like to know the truth about his proximity to people, was he leaned over in their faces or standing up tall. Penny didn't want anyone to help Neely? Why would he tell someone not to help him? Scared he would get up or just waiting for him to die.

I can't stand when people say that someone is struggling when being attacked. If someone had me in a chokehold I'm sure I would be in an extreme panic, thinking I was going to die and do everything in my power to get out of it. I feel the same way when thinking about multiple people piling or leaning onto me, an example would be police officers -one with body weight over top half of body and one with body weight on bottom half. I'm sure I would be loosing my mind. If anyone restrains someone in these ways, it should come with calm instructions for the person to calm down- not yelling and cursing. I wonder if Penny had calmly said, "Hey, I'm about to let you go but you gotta leave these people alone. So okay on count of 3 Imma let you go and you calm down" would it have made a difference.

To be clear, I do believe Penny is a murderer and should be convicted and serve time.

I visited NY a few years ago. The strangest thing I experienced was 2 guys boarding the subway with a boom box and performing a dance routine. Some passengers looked the other way, otherwise watched like me.

When my girls were younger, I took them shopping to a crowded Claire's the day after Christmas. An item didn't have a tag on it. When told, the clerk told my child, in a very accusatory and nasty tone, "Well it was one on their this morning". She was insinuating that my baby took a tag off item she was trying to buy. I lost my s$#& for a moment. I cursed her out and threatened to whoop her axx and break her neck. And finally left the store when told but glared at her for a long time outside I'm glad no one killed me for it.

 

[DS2021]

Unlike murder, manslaughter doesn't require intent. I don't believe that he wanted to kill him, but i think that there are valid concerns about the level of force used in subduing him.

 

[Lilibet]

Unlike murder, manslaughter doesn't require intent. I don't believe that he wanted to kill him, but i think that there are valid concerns about the level of force used in subduing him.

According to my reading of the charges which I quoted a couple of pages back, Penny was reckless and negligent in not showing concern about how his actions were affecting Neely, even when the passengers had left. He can be a hero who saved everyone’s life, but that doesn’t change how he treated Neely.

What if someone had given Neely a bottle of water and a snack right at the beginning, showing him kindness. Maybe he was past the point of no return, but I hear his words as a desperate man, needing attention, not as someone who was going to kill. If someone had taken @Ladyotm seriously, threatening the clerk, she could have ended up like Neely. It was just wild talk in the heat of the moment. Same as Neely. Try kindness first, then escalate if necessary.

JMO

 

[Izzylizzy]

Next to testify was Johnny Grima, a 40-year-old Bronx resident who is unemployed but spends time working with the homeless. He served 13 months behind bars for bashing someone over the head with a baseball bat – but he claimed on the witness stand he didn't do it.

Grima said he didn't see the start of the altercation but arrived after the train's stopped and watched Penny let go of Neely, who was limp at the time.

Grima testified that he said outloud that they shouldn't leave Neely on his back while unconscious. He should be on his side so he wouldn't choke.

Grima, who poured water on Neely's head, testified that Penny was "flinging Neely’s limbs around carelessly" as he repositioner him on the subway car floor.

This isn't a witness, but someone who arrived after the fact. His testimony is weak. Daniel Penny trial: Subway madman raised fists before Marine vet's deadly chokehold, witness testifies

BBM:
Grima is a witness who saw Penny release Neely from the chokehold then was told by Penny not to do what Grima did, put water on Neely's head.
Grima then told Penny that Neely needed to be put on his side.
Photos show Neely on his side but as of yet I haven't read who positioned him that way after Penny released him from the chokehold.
It does show once again how indifferent the Marine trained Penny was to what he did to Neely and the aftermath.

 

[Ontario Mom]

To be clear, I do believe Penny is a murderer and should be convicted and serve time.

RSBM

I disagree completely. The man's death was a tragic accident. I don't believe a crime happened at all.

jmo

 

[Ontario Mom]

So the pants were actually soiled before he was put in the chokehold?

According to one witness, yes. Although I don't know if she meant urine-soiled or just dirty.

 

[Izzylizzy]

The appeal issues just keep piling up.

Mickey2942 or anyone.

I'm confused about what happened when Grima was testifing and called Penny a "murderer".
Did the defense object and the judge overruled?

The same with the teenage girl who called Penny the "white guy" and Neely a "black guy" when speaking with 911 and then used "white man" during her testimony to refer to Penny.

The 911 dispatcher did ask her the man's race.

 

[Izzylizzy]

RSBM

I disagree completely. The man's death was a tragic accident. I don't believe a crime happened at all.

jmo

IMO:
Using lethal force which causes death does not equate to being a "tragic accident".
Penny had foreknowledge.

 

[Izzylizzy]

A serious confusion with the testimonies.

Penny claimed in his statement released by his lawyers that Neely said "I'm going to kill you" "jail for life' "willing to die" numerous times.

@0:50

Here we have this testimony from a frightened bystander.

Newsweek
https://www.newsweek.com › daniel-penny-trial-jordan...




2 days ago — "He was saying, 'I don't care if I die. Kill me, lock me up, I don't care if I go to jail for life,'" Schrunk said. She described Neely's ...

 

[Donswife48]

According to my reading of the charges which I quoted a couple of pages back, Penny was reckless and negligent in not showing concern about how his actions were affecting Neely, even when the passengers had left. He can be a hero who saved everyone’s life, but that doesn’t change how he treated Neely.

What if someone had given Neely a bottle of water and a snack right at the beginning, showing him kindness. Maybe he was past the point of no return, but I hear his words as a desperate man, needing attention, not as someone who was going to kill. If someone had taken @Ladyotm seriously, threatening the clerk, she could have ended up like Neely. It was just wild talk in the heat of the moment. Same as Neely. Try kindness first, then escalate if necessary.

JMO

Presented at the trial
The video was played during the testimony of the first trial witness, NYPD Officer Teodoro Tejada.
Tejada testified that Neely initially had a “faint pulse” when first responders arrived — but that officers could no longer find a pulse minutes later.

Tejada also searched Neely for weapons but only found a muffin in his jacket.

I don't believe a bottle of water and a snack would have brought him out his rage. Per testimony, he already had food. MOO

Bodycam video shown in Daniel Penny trial shows medics trying to revive lifeless Jordan Neely

The video was shown to jurors in Penny’s highly charged manslaughter trial in Manhattan Supreme Court in the May 2023 death of subway busker Neely.

nypost.com

 

[Ladyotm]

Presented at the trial
The video was played during the testimony of the first trial witness, NYPD Officer Teodoro Tejada.
Tejada testified that Neely initially had a “faint pulse” when first responders arrived — but that officers could no longer find a pulse minutes later.

Tejada also searched Neely for weapons but only found a muffin in his jacket.

I don't believe a bottle of water and a snack would have brought him out his rage. Per testimony, he already had food. MOO

Bodycam video shown in Daniel Penny trial shows medics trying to revive lifeless Jordan Neely

The video was shown to jurors in Penny’s highly charged manslaughter trial in Manhattan Supreme Court in the May 2023 death of subway busker Neely.

nypost.com

Just watched the full video at the NY Post link. Did the cop in the doorway of the train refuse to call a "bus" for Neely? He gave a lil gesture, said it didn't look good, and walked off. The other cop appeared to be calling for one. The lack of humanity that day.

 

[KooshBall]

According to one witness, yes. Although I don't know if she meant urine-soiled or just dirty.

It's an interesting point to me because some were implying that if Neely soiled himself from being choked, that Penny should have known to release him. If his pants were soiled from the beginning, then that would not have been a signal to Penny, imo.

 

[Ontario Mom]

It's an interesting point to me because some were implying that if Neely soiled himself from being choked, that Penny should have known to release him. If his pants were soiled from the beginning, then that would not have been a signal to Penny, imo.

I don't know that it would have been any sort of signal to Penny to release his grip.
It was a heated moment, and lots of adrenaline going I'm sure.
Regardless of whatever training folks like to say Penny had or what he should or shouldn't have known or done, there's no way anyone can know what was going through his head in the heat of that moment and if he would have even noticed JN urinating on himself (if that's in fact what happened)

jmo

 

[Lilibet]

I don't believe a bottle of water and a snack would have brought him out his rage. Per testimony, he already had food.

You missed my point that the kindness of offering food might have helped. If it didn’t Penny could have “taken him down” without killing him. But nothing Neely did gave Penny the right to accidentally/negligently kill Neely.

JMO

 

[IceIce9]

You missed my point that the kindness of offering food might have helped. If it didn’t Penny could have “taken him down” without killing him. But nothing Neely did gave Penny the right to accidentally/negligently kill Neely.

JMO

Alternatively, the offer of food might have further enraged him. A person in his state of mind can be very unpredictable.

 

[Izzylizzy]

I don't know that it would have been any sort of signal to Penny to release his grip.
It was a heated moment, and lots of adrenaline going I'm sure.
Regardless of whatever training folks like to say Penny had or what he should or shouldn't have known or done, there's no way anyone can know what was going through his head in the heat of that moment and if he would have even noticed JN urinating on himself (if that's in fact what happened)

jmo

After Penny took Neely down within seconds the train stopped and all passengers exited so Penny's excuse for bringing down Neely was that he thought Neely was going to kill someone so his imagined threat was now over.
The man holding Neely's shoulder off and on had testified that he repeatedly told Penny to let go.


"Prosecutors said that about 3 minutes and 10 seconds into the video, Neely ceases all purposeful movement."

"After that moment, Mr. Neely's movements are best described as 'twitching and the kind of agonal movement that you see around death,'" the prosecutor said"

https://abcnews.go.com/US/opening-s...-daniel-penny-trial-jordan/story?id=115213409

 

[Izzylizzy]

Yep.
The prosecution is about the 5 mins 53 secs and NOT the initial take down.

 

[Ontario Mom]

After Penny took Neely down within seconds the train stopped and all passengers exited so Penny's excuse for bringing down Neely was that he thought Neely was going to kill someone so his imagined threat was now over.

To be fair and factual, it wasn't an "imagined threat" as you suggest. JN actually did threaten violence and conducted himself in a threatening manner, as witnesses have testified.

We also don't know if the threat was over or not. I don't pretend to know what Penny was thinking but for all we know, he was worried if he let him go before police arrived that he might get right up and carry out whatever threats he'd been making. On him, or anyone else within reach.

jmo