Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

[MrsWatson]

But again, it's all about what Zelenskyy wants and not others. It's all about himself.

Zelensky has eschewed suits, button-down shirts and ties - even during important meetings with world leaders and an address to the US Congress - since the start of the full-scale Russian invasion of his country began in 2022.

The Ukrainian leader has said his choice of clothing is a show of solidarity with soldiers fighting the Russian army on the war's frontlines.

Source

 

[Stella123]

I found this fully referenced article helpful in understanding why Ukraine cannot agree to a ceasefire, why Russia will not negotiate, and why the only option is to protect Ukraine borders.

Why Ukraine Shouldn’t Negotiate with Putin | Journal of Democracy

Many pundits cry for a negotiated settlement to end the war between Russia and Ukraine. But they misunderstand Vladimir Putin’s motives. The only just end to the war will be in the trenches…

www.journalofdemocracy.org

"Further, more than twenty-thousand Ukrainian children have been forcibly abducted and sent to orphanages, foster homes, or adoptive families in Russia. There they are subjected to harsh indoctrination and reeducation programs that seek to erase their Ukrainian identity. For these crimes, the International Criminal Court has issued arrest warrants against Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova, Russia’s commissioner for children’s rights and engineer of the abduction and reeducation program. Lest anyone doubt the sincerity of Putin’s campaign to erase future generations of Ukrainians, one only need to look at the deadly bombings of Ukrainian maternity and children’s hospitals throughout the war, far from the front lines and any military targets."

Your link above

 

[Stella123]

Wild guess, but I suppose this false information originates on Musk's site: twitter?

Yep. Although I think it was accepted it was fake and seen as a joke.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

<modsnip> He doesn’t pay taxes. He has no authority to make decisions or spout nonsense on behalf of our country. His opinions are meaningless as he consorts with our enemies.JMO

CNN's Harry Enten: Elon Musk Has Become "Detestable" To Americans, "It's Only Going To Get Worse From Here"

CNN chief data analyst Harry Enten was very expressive in explaining how Americans feel about Elon Musk on Tuesday's broadcast of 'Inside Politics.' "The American folks know that something is up," Enten said of Musk's approval rating. "I think it's only going to get worse from here, given that...

www.realclearpolitics.com

Yes @Betty P and another IMO very troubling element of Musk’s involvement in government and ‘DOGE’ initiatives - is that he runs several companies that are privately held (x/Twitter & SpaceX to name only two).

And those same entities may conduct business with the US government. Directly by contract or other. And IMO it is troubling that such access to an individual is granted. How is one to ascertain that what is done or planned is in the best interest of the American public? A private entity? An individual with a large investment in a private entity?

That such access and involvement is allowed is disturbing to me IMO. MOO

Example: ABC News February 10, 2025 online article by Soo Rin Kim entitled ‘As Musk works to slash federal spending, his own firms have received billions in government contracts - NASA is the single largest customer of Musk's company SpaceX.’:

As Musk works to slash federal spending, his own firms have received billions in government contracts

As Elon Musk has led an effort to slash government spending, his own companies have, over the last few years, received billions of dollars in government contracts.

abcnews.go.com

 

[Stella123]

I'm apologize for my unclear message. I hope just clarifies.

Zelensky is asking for a security guarantee. This includes but it's not limited to, troops on the ground, air support, military intelligence and continued military equipment and ammunition. He stayed this in the press conference with the president and in his very long X Post.
Moo

People in Ukraine - not troops. People to occupy and work on the mineral land the US would be buying. A US presence on the land they bought the mineral rights from. Possibly he also meant US troops to defend their mineral rights. That deal wasn't going to work - there was just no agreement. Yes maybe Zelensky did want things that the US couldn't do - but Trump ignored the fact that Ukraine needed security against Putin - he just wanted the mineral deal. What Trump should have done IMO is politely say that the US can't have troops in Ukraine, even to protect mineral rights, as Putin would see that as the US entering the war. But Trump couldn't say that, because he was on camera to the whole world. Whole thing was a total disaster. The agreements and signing should have been done BEFORE the press conference, and if no agreement, then an announcement that further talks were continuin and no press conference.

 

[Stella123]

"Further, more than twenty-thousand Ukrainian children have been forcibly abducted and sent to orphanages, foster homes, or adoptive families in Russia. There they are subjected to harsh indoctrination and reeducation programs that seek to erase their Ukrainian identity. For these crimes, the International Criminal Court has issued arrest warrants against Putin and Maria Lvova-Belova, Russia’s commissioner for children’s rights and engineer of the abduction and reeducation program. Lest anyone doubt the sincerity of Putin’s campaign to erase future generations of Ukrainians, one only need to look at the deadly bombings of Ukrainian maternity and children’s hospitals throughout the war, far from the front lines and any military targets."

Your link above

Remember the Hitler Youth programme? Indoctrinating children against their parents.

 

[Simply Southern]

Just finished watching Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan and Treasury Secretary Bessent. She ask point blank....Is the deal for the table? YES, it's off the table.

He also stated, military support was not a part of the economic agreement. Security would be discussed at a time a peace agreement is negotiated. Security would need to be provided by the European countries.
Moo..

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

I saw in a different light. I saw our great president trying to reason for peace. It's an unwinnable war, unless Zelenskyy can overthrow the Russian government. Putin does not back down, he has more military support, can afford to pay for soldiers from other countries to fight, doesn't care how many of his troops are slaughtered, and the power of the almighty nuclear weapon.

I don't want to see our troops in Ukraine. I personally lost many during Afghanistan, many returned maimed, and with PTSD. It changes a family forever.
The European countries don't want to send in ground troops. France and the UK have committed a small amount. I haven't seen any other country offer up any.

This deal was on again off again everyday last week. His Parliament voted and approved, announced on Twitter and the media. So did he. The US was going to send someone to sign the agreement. Zelenskyy ask the president of France to contact Trump on Friday and ask for an invite and a public presentation. I knew then it was a mistake and a setup my Zelenskyy. Trump met UK and France in person last week and they held several press conferences. Trump has repeatedly say it we will not send in military support. If you said it once he said it a hundred times, no security agreement from the US. Zelenskyy thought he badger Trump into committing in front of the press. He lost.

Moo...

We're arguing two separate (and only tangentially relevant) things. Let's be clear, the vast majority of Americans don't want war. So the White House spin that that's what the criticism is about is nothing but a straw man, meant to manipulate emotions by playing on fear. That's the exact same thing he pulled with Zelensky and will continue to pull with the American people with narratives similar to what you've mentioned above. Most of us have lived through war in Afghanistan and Iraq. No one wants more of that. We are in agreement.

The criticism is about HOW it's been handled and how it will continue to be handled. That matters as much or more than the end result. Everyday that Trump shows incompetency in diplomacy is another day that Russia thrives and America is weakened on the international stage.

MOO.

 

[Cryptic]

I found this fully referenced article helpful in understanding why Ukraine cannot agree to a ceasefire, why Russia will not negotiate, and why the only option is to protect Ukraine borders.

Why Ukraine Shouldn’t Negotiate with Putin | Journal of Democracy

Many pundits cry for a negotiated settlement to end the war between Russia and Ukraine. But they misunderstand Vladimir Putin’s motives. The only just end to the war will be in the trenches…

www.journalofdemocracy.org

That is a good article. Here is another article that illustrates how difficult the Ukrainian position is:

Ukraine's disappearing army

Unwilling conscripts and disillusioned veterans are fleeing the frontline

theweek.com

At the end of the day, Ukraine is running out of willing soldiers due to many factors including exhaustion, casualties, a relentless enemy that out numbers them and...... a complex national identity regarding "Ukraine" or "Russia". Some citizens then opt to sit the war out.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

why was the meeting in front of the press?

For the same reason schoolyard bullies want someone to film on a smartphone.

JMO.

 

[Stella123]

NATO's Article 5 was invoked as a result of 9/11 - troops from Canada and European countries joined the fight in Afghanistan. ie Europe supported the US when it was attacked.

I guess the difference is - Ukraine isn't part of Nato.

"Dozens of countries joined or endorsed the NATO coalition fighting in Afghanistan. Russia acquiesced to NATO troops in Central Asia for the first time and provided logistical support. Never before had NATO invoked Article 5 of its charter that an attack against one member was an attack against all."

From 9/11's ashes, a new world took shape. It did not last.

The terrorist attacks on the United States nearly 20 years ago brought profound change in America and the world

www.independent.co.uk

 

[otto]

We're arguing two separate (and only tangentially relevant) things. Let's be clear, the vast majority of Americans don't want war. So the White House spin that that's what the criticism is about is nothing but a straw man, meant to manipulate emotions by playing on fear. That's the exact same thing he pulled with Zelensky and will continue to pull with the American people with narratives similar to what you've mentioned above. Most of us have lived through war in Afghanistan and Iraq. No one wants more of that. We are in agreement.

The criticism is about HOW it's been handled and how it will continue to be handled. That matters as much or more than the end result. Everyday that Trump shows incompetency in diplomacy is another day that Russia thrives and America is weakened on the international stage.

MOO.

For years, Trump bragged that he could quickly end the war against Ukraine. Today, he wants money from Ukraine in the form of natural resources. He's not talking about ending war, he's talking about robbing Ukraine.

When Ukraine said no, Trump had an emotional meltdown and accused Ukraine of starting WW3.

I don't know how anyone can connect those dots, but apparently that makes sense to Trump's followers. It does not make sense to the international community.

 

[Simply Southern]

People in Ukraine - not troops. People to occupy and work on the mineral land the US would be buying. A US presence on the land they bought the mineral rights from. Possibly he also meant US troops to defend their mineral rights. That deal wasn't going to work - there was just no agreement. Yes maybe Zelensky did want things that the US couldn't do - but Trump ignored the fact that Ukraine needed security against Putin - he just wanted the mineral deal. What Trump should have done IMO is politely say that the US can't have troops in Ukraine, even to protect mineral rights, as Putin would see that as the US entering the war. But Trump couldn't say that, because he was on camera to the whole world. Whole thing was a total disaster. The agreements and signing should have been done BEFORE the press conference, and if no agreement, then an announcement that further talks were continuin and no press conference.

Trump didn't ignore the fact that he needs security. Trump has been stating for 2 weeks now all over every single News channel and in person to the president of the UK and France.... European country will need to provide security.

The press conference was not to discuss peacekeeping or security. Je blindsided the entire team I tried to use the media to force the US into entering an endless war. He started repeatedly, he did not want to negotiate. It wants to keep his land and have land return back to 1996, receive all the Russian Frozen assets and US military support.

Trump wanted to show Russia and Ukraine supporting each other. To quote Bessent... Many had spoken to Zelenskyy they wanted to present a positive, NO DAYLIGHT between the two countries image.

Yes I agree the agreement should I've been find in private. Actually Trump did not invite him to the United States, and planned to send Bessent to sign the deal in Ukraine. Bessent's name is the authorized representative of the agreement that Ukraine LEAKED to the press. The president of France called Trump on Friday, at the request of Zelenskyy, to ask for a trip to the United States and a public press conference for the signing. Zelenskyy had no intentions are signing the agreement. He just wanted a lot of attention and some Free press time.
Moo

 

[musicaljoke]

Well said. The way Trump and his allies have convinced people that Ukraine is somehow the villain here is incredibly frustrating. It’s all part of a broader strategy—create a victim narrative, repeat it endlessly, and use it to justify turning against those who actually need support. The irony is, the real aggressor in this situation is Russia, but somehow people have been manipulated into thinking Ukraine is the one to blame. You explained this perfectly, and more people need to recognize how this mindset is being shaped.

It is mind blowing how quickly some people can be duped into thinking that Ukraine is the one to blame. This all happened before our very eyes, and only within the past few years. We saw the news reports of how Russia was lined up on the border. We saw how Russia invaded without reason. How can people reimagine the facts? I just can't fathom it.

 

[Stella123]

Trump didn't ignore the fact that he needs security. Trump has been stating for 2 weeks now all over every single News channel and in person to the president of the UK and France.... European country will need to provide security.

The press conference was not to discuss peacekeeping or security. Je blindsided the entire team I tried to use the media to force the US into entering an endless war. He started repeatedly, he did not want to negotiate. It wants to keep his land and have land return back to 1996, receive all the Russian Frozen assets and US military support.

Trump wanted to show Russia and Ukraine supporting each other. To quote Bessent... Many had spoken to Zelenskyy they wanted to present a positive, NO DAYLIGHT between the two countries image.

Yes I agree the agreement should I've been find in private. Actually Trump did not invite him to the United States, and planned to send Bessent to sign the deal in Ukraine. Bessent's name is the authorized representative of the agreement that Ukraine LEAKED to the press. The president of France called Trump on Friday, at the request of Zelenskyy, to ask for a trip to the United States and a public press conference for the signing. Zelenskyy had no intentions are signing the agreement. He just wanted a lot of attention and some Free press time.
Moo

So Trump wanted the mineral rights for the US but have Europe provide the security?!!

 

[Stella123]

"
Today's visit at Sandringham will take place following a defence summit with European leaders hosted by Prime Minister Keir Starmer at Downing Street.

Speaking to the Express, royal expert Robert Jobson revealed that the King will likely not speak of Trump during today's meeting with Zelensky.

Mr Jobson said: "The King absolutely won't say anything about Trump. He is a man who is a master of soft power diplomacy.

"He has been doing this for more than 50 years and knows how to be the most graceful of leaders after learning from the Queen."

Although the King will want to "reaffirm the UK's support of Ukraine", Mr Jobson believes he will "absolutely stay away from causing any upset with the US."

Speaking ahead of today's visit, a Palace insider told The Sun: "Zelensky was always due to be in the UK this weekend and so a meeting with the King was pencilled in."

https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/2021404/king-charles-zelensky-meeting-donald-trump

 

[Simply Southern]

The British people were cheering Zelenskyy when he arrived at the meeting with Starmer.


"As you heard from the cheers on the street outside, you have full backing across the United Kingdom," Starmer said. "We stand with you, with Ukraine, for as long as it may take."

https://www.npr.org/2025/03/02/g-s1-51585/uk-france-ukraine-ceasefire-plan

That's great. Now if they'll just come up with the money a military support. I know your country is helping. Do you think your country will send troops to help support a peacekeeping operation? So far only UK and France have offered a few troops.
Moo

 

[otto]

Trump didn't ignore the fact that he needs security. Trump has been stating for 2 weeks now all over every single News channel and in person to the president of the UK and France.... European country will need to provide security.

The press conference was not to discuss peacekeeping or security. Je blindsided the entire team I tried to use the media to force the US into entering an endless war. He started repeatedly, he did not want to negotiate. It wants to keep his land and have land return back to 1996, receive all the Russian Frozen assets and US military support.

Trump wanted to show Russia and Ukraine supporting each other. To quote Bessent... Many had spoken to Zelenskyy they wanted to present a positive, NO DAYLIGHT between the two countries image.

Yes I agree the agreement should I've been find in private. Actually Trump did not invite him to the United States, and planned to send Bessent to sign the deal in Ukraine. Bessent's name is the authorized representative of the agreement that Ukraine LEAKED to the press. The president of France called Trump on Friday, at the request of Zelenskyy, to ask for a trip to the United States and a public press conference for the signing. Zelenskyy had no intentions are signing the agreement. He just wanted a lot of attention and some Free press time.
Moo

Small correction - Commonwealth Nations, such as the UK, have Prime Ministers, not Presidents.

What I heard was that Trump thinks he's playing a card game and that he's holding all the cards. Zelenskyy tried to tell Trump that war is not a game. Trump offered a temporary ceasefire and refused to listen to Zelenskyy as he tried to educate Trump about the reasons that ceasefire only enables Russia to re-group and re-invade.

 

[Simply Southern]

Trump is letting his people down.

Is your country going to send troops and additional money? Moo

 

[weepingangel]

Speaker Johnson says Zelenskyy may have to resign after fiery Oval Office meeting

The House speaker said Zelenskyy “needs to come to his senses and come back to the table in gratitude or someone else needs to lead the country to do that.”

www.nbcnews.com