Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

[Simply Southern]

Dbm

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Trump is letting his people down.

I'm cheering him on so no, he's not.

 

[otto]

Like I said Zelenskyy needs to stop demanding things like security assurances and learn how to ask for it. It's really simple. I don't understand why he doesn't get it. JMO.

I can't wait for the USA to shove a similar document under the nose of the Canadian government. Canada will contribute 50% to a fund, the USA will own the other 50% of the fund that is filled using Canadian assets. The USA will make 100% of decisions regarding the fund. The USA will make all decisions regarding which foreign investors will own private and public Canadian assets.

That's quite the deal! In exchange, the USA will stop the war against Canada?

Do people in the USA think that foreigners are intellectually impaired?

 

[Stunned]

​

PM says he and Macron have agreed to begin talks as Europe scrambles to respond to White House disaster

The prime minister told the BBC on Sunday that he and the French president, Emmanuel Macron, had agreed to begin negotiations separate to those between the US and Russia, after a series of hurried phone calls on Saturday evening.

Starmer told the BBC’s Laura Kuenssberg: “We’ve now agreed that the United Kingdom, along with France and possibly one or two others, will work with Ukraine on a plan to stop the fighting, and then we’ll discuss that plan with the United States.”

He added: “The UK and France are the most advanced in the thinking on this, and that’s why President Macron and I are going to be working on this plan, which we’ll then discuss with the US.

“That is a step in the right direction. This is not an exclusion – the more the better in this. But we need to move to a quicker, more agile way of going forward, and I think that is a coalition of the willing states.”

UK and France will work on own Ukraine peace plan, says Keir Starmer

PM says he and Macron have agreed to begin talks as Europe scrambles to respond to White House disaster

www.theguardian.com

Good. Sadly #47 is not capable of leading the free world and until we (the US) get our country back on track, other world leaders do need to take the wheel. Hopefully we'll be back soon! IMO!!

 

[Sundog]

Trump didn't ignore the fact that he needs security. Trump has been stating for 2 weeks now all over every single News channel and in person to the president of the UK and France.... European country will need to provide security.

The press conference was not to discuss peacekeeping or security. Je blindsided the entire team I tried to use the media to force the US into entering an endless war. He started repeatedly, he did not want to negotiate. It wants to keep his land and have land return back to 1996, receive all the Russian Frozen assets and US military support.

Trump wanted to show Russia and Ukraine supporting each other. To quote Bessent... Many had spoken to Zelenskyy they wanted to present a positive, NO DAYLIGHT between the two countries image.

Yes I agree the agreement should I've been find in private. Actually Trump did not invite him to the United States, and planned to send Bessent to sign the deal in Ukraine. Bessent's name is the authorized representative of the agreement that Ukraine LEAKED to the press. The president of France called Trump on Friday, at the request of Zelenskyy, to ask for a trip to the United States and a public press conference for the signing. Zelenskyy had no intentions are signing the agreement. He just wanted a lot of attention and some Free press time.
Moo

Thank you for clarifying that it was Macron who called President Trump at the request of Zelensky to ask for a trip to the US. and a public press conference for the signing. If he didn't want to sign the agreement, he shouldn't have asked for this meeting, he wasted everyone's time and blindsided our administration

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I'm looking at this from the outside, as a foreigner, but my impression is that pro-Trump people don't really think much about what's going on between Russia and Ukraine. They voted for Trump, and they are doubling down on their choice regardless of what he says or does.

In terms of big picture and how this evolved, my impression is that Trump is using a strategy previously used by Hitler. That is, he needed to unify people to follow and support him regardless of what he did. What better way to achieve this than to convince people that they are treated unfairly, cheated, and victimized by someone. Trump started by announcing that immigrants are criminals and murderers. They are the "bad guy" that is victimizing the USA people. Hitler named Jewish people as the "bad guy" After he was elected, Trump expanded that 'bad guy' image to include Panama (they stole the canal), Denmark (won't sell Greenland), Canada (replace "trade deficit" with "subsidy"), the EU (formed to harm the USA), and Ukraine (grifting for war supplies). Each of these "bad guys" are, according to Trump: so mean, so unfair, so nasty to Trump's followers (victims).

People who elected Trump were gradually convinced, through daily repetition of false statements from Trump, that they are victims of immigrants, Canadians, Ukrainian and many other countries. Today, Trump's supporters are unified in their belief that they are victims who are justified in lashing out at all those people/countries that Trump identified as harming the USA. The victim mentality is so deeply rooted that Trump and his followers tell Canadians that they should not retaliate when Trump enacts Economic War against Canada on Tuesday. They believe that Trump is justified in declaring war, that Canadians have harmed the USA, and that any reaction is an invitation to escalate the war. They believe that Canada should do what Trump says because, according to them, Canada is stealing from the USA. They do not accept that Trump has no authority in sovereign countries like Ukraine, Greenland, Canada, etc., or that Trump is concocting facts.

Similarly with Ukraine, Trump's followers/victims look at the $6.6 billion spent (no strings attached) by the USA and the $6 billion spent by the EU (to protect democracy), and conclude that Ukraine is cheating the USA. They watched Vance and Trump deteriorate to infantile shouting-match tantrums with Zelenskyy and then blame Zelenskyy (echoing Russia) - with the usual name-calling, insults and declarations that the man who had the tantrum was justified since, in their view, Trump is the victim defending a country full of victims. Trump's followers/victims believe that Ukraine is a 'cheat' that deserves mass murder from Russian troops because they accepted USA money to defend democracy.

My father emigrated from Canada. So you're saying I'm a victim of my own father? Utter nonsense. JMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

Dbm

 

[Marysmith]

Thank you for clarifying that it was Macron who called President Trump at the request of Zelensky to ask for a trip to the US. and a public press conference for the signing. If he didn't want to sign the agreement, he shouldn't have asked for this meeting, he wasted everyone's time and blindsided our administration

Can you provide a source that Macron asked for the deal to be negotiated on live TV please?

 

[Marysmith]

DBM

 

[PommyMommy]

NATO's Article 5 was invoked as a result of 9/11 - troops from Canada and European countries joined the fight in Afghanistan. ie Europe supported the US when it was attacked.

I guess the difference is - Ukraine isn't part of Nato.

"Dozens of countries joined or endorsed the NATO coalition fighting in Afghanistan. Russia acquiesced to NATO troops in Central Asia for the first time and provided logistical support. Never before had NATO invoked Article 5 of its charter that an attack against one member was an attack against all."

From 9/11's ashes, a new world took shape. It did not last.

The terrorist attacks on the United States nearly 20 years ago brought profound change in America and the world

www.independent.co.uk

BBM Correct. However, Ukraine assisted in Afghanistan for 14 YEARS.

Ukraine withdraws its troops from Afghanistan

Ukraine has pulled its military contingent out of Afghanistan, spelling an end to its 14-year involvement in the… - Jun. 09, 2021. By Illia Ponomarenko

www.kyivpost.com

The Ukrainians were part of NATO’s non-combat mission Resolute Support, which provided training and advice for the Afghan Armed Forces since late 2014. Since 2007, Ukraine was also involved in the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), a multinational military mission that was active between 2001 and 2014.

According to Ukraine’s General Staff, the Ukrainian personnel were involved in the mission’s regional staff service, engineer reconnaissance of transport communications, and disposal of improvised explosive devices. They also served watch duties with the international joint rapid response task team.

 

[PommyMommy]

I had a productive meeting with the President of the Council of Ministers of Italy @GiorgiaMeloni to develop a joint action plan for ending the war with a just and lasting peace.

No one other than Putin is interested in the continuation and quick return of the war. Therefore, it is important to maintain unity around Ukraine and strengthen our country's position in cooperation with our allies – the countries of Europe and the United States.

Ukraine needs peace backed by robust security guarantees.

I am grateful to Italy for its continued support and partnership in bringing peace in Ukraine closer.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1896205665129120036

 

[Mo Thuairim]

Speaker Johnson says Zelenskyy may have to resign after fiery Oval Office meeting

The House speaker said Zelenskyy “needs to come to his senses and come back to the table in gratitude or someone else needs to lead the country to do that.”

www.nbcnews.com

These disingenuous quotes coming from the Trump administration and Johnson and his ilk are so frustrating.

“President Trump is trying to get these two parties to a point of peace,” Johnson said during an interview on NBC News’ “Meet the Press,” adding: “What President Zelenskyy did in the White House was effectively signal to us that he’s not ready for that yet, and I think that’s a great disappointment.”

Johnson emphasized that Trump “has been very clear about this — that if [Zelenskyy] is ready for peace, then we can negotiate a deal.”

Of course Zelenskyy wants peace. Everyone wants peace, except perhaps for Putin. Trump is not presenting a pathway to peace. He's trying to put Ukraine on a path to capitulation.

 

[Simply Southern]

Dbm

 

[Deleted member 39678]

You are not responding to what was being said. You keep saying that the US won't give troops but that is not being requested. He has mentioned the children multiple times. You should try alternate news sources than just listening to MAGA approved sources because they are very biased.

Then why didn't Zelenskyy sign the mineral deal and then toddle off to Europe and ask them for troops? JMO.

 

[Simply Southern]

Dbm

 

[branmuffin]

One of the great ironies for me when talking about the USA being the most powerful country in the world from a military perspective is that they haven't ever really experienced a modern war on their own soil.

Where I grew up in England even people born well after the war, knew what it was like to live in a country that had been bombed repeatedly. All the wrought iron fences around churches were melted down to make weapons of war. They never put them back after the war, a silent testament to the past. They've never experienced seeing miles of rusted barb wire attached to huge cement blocks in preparation for invasion along the seacoast.

I think it's different when you go to war and see the devastation in other countries but it's much more raw when it's your own country. We'd get mines washed up on the shore decades later. A kid I knew found a grenade in sandbank near a bunker, they dotted the coast, too. Just last month some kids found a bomb in a park playground in Northumberland. A total of 176 unexploded bombs have been found so far in that playground. A friend of mine from Malta went to a church that still had a bomb in the roof because they couldn't remove it. And Europe has evidence everywhere: bullet holes in church walls where the Germans lined up the Jews and shot them. The catacombs in Paris that still have graffiti from the French Resistance on the walls. And of course, the concentration camps now memorials to millions. No one will be turning them into resorts any time soon.

So even though troops from around the world went to war for Britain and Europe and many died for democracy they don't know what it's like to fight for your country. Maybe that's why so many Americans find Zelensky's attitude and passion out of place in an insulated environment like the Oval Office. He's living the war every time he closes his eyes. Imagine every day of your life for the past three years being bombed to smithereens and to be castigated for fighting to protect your country and countrymen.

Unlike Donald Trump, Winston Churchill, in his most famous speech recognized that fact - that no matter the cost, that England would defend to the death their native soil. What a lot of people don't know is that this speech wasn't delivered to the British people it was delivered to members of parliament in the House of Commons and is quite a bit longer than the sound bite we usually hear. At the end, there is a poignant reminder that Churchill, was hoping the new world (USA) would step forward and help the old. This speech was given on June 4, 1940, 18 months before the US entered the theatre of war and only because their military base was attacked in Hawaii, which at that time was not a state. Here's the full speech:

"The British Empire and the French Republic, linked together in their cause and in their need, will defend to the death their native soil, aiding each other like good comrades to the utmost of their strength.
"Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous states have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail.

"We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be.
"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the new world, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old."
House of Commons - 4 June 1940

 

[Simply Southern]

D

 

[Simply Southern]

dbm

 

[Marysmith]

Zelenskyy pushed France to have in public. Trump was planning on sending a representative to Ukraine. Moo

Please provide a source for this. Please.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

DBM