Russia Attacks Ukraine - 23 Feb 2022 #12

[Bluebear15]

UK, Germany and France Ready to Send Troops to Ukraine to Support Truce

French Finance Minister Lombard indicates Europe is ready to send troops to Ukraine for ceasefire enforcement, pending US backing for the mission.

united24media.com

Zewlenskyy knew before going to Washington that European nations said they would send troops to Ukraine if there's a ceasefire. The US backing would be from having US contractors working at the border extracting minerals which would be a big deterrent to Putin attacking again.

For some reason that wasn't good enough for Zelenskyy and he cause a big scene in the Oval Office instead of signing the deal and moving forward. Not a very smart move. JMO.

Once the US have raped Ukraine of its minerals then they'll withdraw and Russia will attack again.
Clearly you've watched a different meeting to me, as the people making a scene were Trump and Vance acting like school bullies. I was half expecting Vance to push Zelenskyy to the floor and force him into kissing Trump's feet at one point!! The whole thing was a setup and aimed at humiliating Zelenskyy. Thankfully the two losers have failed.

 

[UK Girl]

Do you a source for this? I researched and couldn't find a direct quote or statement where Trump discussed what the securities would be at all. If you have a link, that would be super helpful.

Contractor's are not security guarantees, in my opinion.

They would not necessarily be on the borders either .

 

[UK Girl]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed> It is ALL about Putin. I know what Europe have suggested. I also know what Russia has said. What we have suggested is irrelevant unless Russia agrees.

Kremlin dismisses Trump’s claim that Russia would accept peacekeeping troops in Ukraine

Russia has not changed position on foreign troops in Ukraine, Peskov indicated.

www.politico.eu

 

[Rolypolyoly]

UK, Germany and France Ready to Send Troops to Ukraine to Support Truce

French Finance Minister Lombard indicates Europe is ready to send troops to Ukraine for ceasefire enforcement, pending US backing for the mission.

united24media.com

Zewlenskyy knew before going to Washington that European nations said they would send troops to Ukraine if there's a ceasefire. The US backing would be from having US contractors working at the border extracting minerals which would be a big deterrent to Putin attacking again.

For some reason that wasn't good enough for Zelenskyy and he cause a big scene in the Oval Office instead of signing the deal and moving forward. Not a very smart move. JMO.

For some reason

 

[LibraStarr]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed for unapproved source (transcript) but refers to Trump's proposed solution)
He says the agreement IS the security. A piece of of paper that doesn’t even mention security is no security at all.

Nowhere in that does he state what the securities will be.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

He says the agreement IS the security. A piece of of paper that doesn’t even mention security is no security at all.

Nowhere in that does he state what the securities will be.

I simply read between the lines. Zelenskyy could have talked to President Trump behind closed doors for any detailed questions about the deal but instead he ruined any chance of that. The Ukrainian people where let down by him at the PC.

JMO.

 

[LibraStarr]

I simply read between the lines. Zelenskyy could have talked to President Trump behind closed doors for any detailed questions about the deal but instead he ruined any chance of that. The Ukrainian people where let down by him at the PC.

JMO.

This is like signing a contract that implies protection but never actually states it. If there’s nothing in writing that legally guarantees security, then there’s no obligation to provide it. It’s the equivalent of someone handing you a blank check and saying, “Trust me, this will cover everything,” but when you go to cash it, you find out it’s worthless.

In legal terms, agreements only hold as much weight as their written guarantees. If security isn’t explicitly outlined in the mineral deal, then when Ukraine needs protection, the U.S. could simply point to the document and say, “Well, we never promised anything.” It’s a loophole big enough to drive a tank through. Sound familiar (Budapest Memorandum)?

Moo

 

[Sundog]

Do you a source for this? I researched and couldn't find a direct quote or statement where Trump discussed what the securities would be at all. If you have a link, that would be super helpful.

Contractor's are not security guarantees, in my opinion.

President Trump indicated that having international business entities working in Ukraine would be a deterrent as this would be normalized and pervasive in the rebuilding of Ukraine.

 

[Lucy6226]

I simply read between the lines.

RSBM

And there's the issue right there.

There can be no 'reading between the lines'. It needs to be stated explicitly, vagueness means nothing. We are talking about people's lives here.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

President Trump indicated that having international business entities working in Ukraine would be a deterrent as this is normalized in the rebuilding of Ukraine.

It easy for me to understand how the contractors presence in Ukraine would be a big deterrence to future aggression by Putin.

Together with the promised European troops that Zelenskyy knew about before the PC there's great security assured for Ukraine. JMO.

 

[UK Girl]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed for unapproved source>
So that said the Americans would protect the minerals..not act as back up to any peacekeepers or anything

 

[Betty P]

UK, Germany and France Ready to Send Troops to Ukraine to Support Truce

French Finance Minister Lombard indicates Europe is ready to send troops to Ukraine for ceasefire enforcement, pending US backing for the mission.

united24media.com

Zewlenskyy knew before going to Washington that European nations said they would send troops to Ukraine if there's a ceasefire. The US backing would be from having US contractors working at the border extracting minerals which would be a big deterrent to Putin attacking again.

For some reason that wasn't good enough for Zelenskyy and he cause a big scene in the Oval Office instead of signing the deal and moving forward. Not a very smart move. JMO.

JMO, the prior agreement had the US helping provide air coverage and intelligence. European allies were going to provide troops,etc.

A plan had been developed outlining each allied country's role. When Trump decided to renege on the US part, the other allies had to try to fill the gap. Either way, it required further planning and negotiation before a new agreement could be developed.

That's what is happening now. The European allies have been meeting and developing a plan that doesn't include US participation in providing security. EU will handle it. Good for them.

Now Trump is trying to sabotage the agreement by insisting that Zelenskyy resign. Not going to happen and the EU will back him up. I predict popular opinion in the US will also be with EU and Zelenskyy. I assume Trump is trying to sabotage an agreement as a pretext for allowing Putin and the US to do as they wish in Ukraine. If Trump tries to call out troops to attack Ukraine, I suspect he will become very unpopular very quickly here at home.

Americans will never accept deserting European (and Canadian, Australian) alliances in favor of an alignment with Russia, nor Saudi Arabia for that matter.

JMO

 

[UK Girl]

JMO, the prior agreement had the US helping provide air coverage and intelligence. European allies were going to provide troops,etc.

A plan had been developed outlining each allied country's role. When Trump decided to renege on the US part, the other allies had to try to fill the gap. Either way, it required further planning and negotiation before a new agreement could be developed.

That's what is happening now. The European allies have been meeting and developing a plan that doesn't include US participation in providing security. EU will handle it. Good for them.

Now Trump is trying to sabotage the agreement by insisting that Zelenskyy resign. Not going to happen and the EU will back him up. I predict popular opinion in the US will also be with EU and Zelenskyy. I assume Trump is trying to sabotage an agreement as a pretext for allowing Putin and the US to do as they wish in Ukraine. If Trump tries to call out troops to attack Ukraine, I suspect he will become very unpopular very quickly here at home.

Americans will never accept deserting European (and Canadian) alliances in favor of an alignment with Russia, nor Saudi Arabia for that matter.

JMO

He made it plain he wanted Zelensky out before the fiasco last Friday. Maybe thats why that all occurred. Who knows

 

[Deleted member 39678]

JMO, the prior agreement had the US helping provide air coverage and intelligence. European allies were going to provide troops,etc.

A plan had been developed outlining each allied country's role. When Trump decided to renege on the US part, the other allies had to try to fill the gap. Either way, it required further planning and negotiation before a new agreement could be developed.

That's what is happening now. The European allies have been meeting and developing a plan that doesn't include US participation in providing security. EU will handle it. Good for them.

Now Trump is trying to sabotage the agreement by insisting that Zelenskyy resign. Not going to happen and the EU will back him up. I predict popular opinion in the US will also be with EU and Zelenskyy. I assume Trump is trying to sabotage an agreement as a pretext for allowing Putin and the US to do as they wish in Ukraine. If Trump tries to call out troops to attack Ukraine, I suspect he will become very unpopular very quickly here at home.

Americans will never accept deserting European (and Canadian, Australian) alliances in favor of an alignment with Russia, nor Saudi Arabia for that matter.

JMO

Has President Trump publicly stated that Zelenskyy needs to resign? I haven't heard that.

 

[Betty P]

He made it plain he wanted Zelensky out before the fiasco last Friday. Maybe thats why that all occurred. Who knows

He's wrong, has no standing to ask that. It won't happen. I don't think Trump realizes how much the US is poised to turn on him if he continues his authoritarian path to attempt to force the US to ally itself with Russia.

JMO

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Too many Reports coming in folks, so we're going to close this thread for an hour or so to clean up and give us all a break.

Check back later. Thanks !!

 

[Sillybilly]

Thread is open again.

Stick to discussing the Russia/Ukraine issue, NOT who voted for who along with all the personalizing toward others who may not share your position.

 

[JennieM]

2h ago17.11 GMT

France's prime minister tears into Trump's attack on Zelenskyy as a staggering show of 'brutality'​

France’s prime minister tore into US president Donald Trump’s Oval Office thrashing of Volodymyr Zelenskyy, calling it a staggering show of “brutality” that aimed to humiliate Ukraine’s leader, AP reported.

The extraordinary criticism from prime minister François Bayrou, speaking in a parliamentary debate on Ukraine, diverged from the more nuanced tone that French president Emmanuel Macron has adopted in the wake of the clash at the White House on Friday and dropped the diplomatic niceties that customarily mark French-US relations.

“On Friday night, in the Oval Office of the White House, a staggering scene unfurled before the lenses of the entire world, marked by brutality, a desire to humiliate, with the goal of making Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy fold through threats,” Bayrou said.

“President Zelenskyy did not fold and I think we can show him our appreciation,” Bayrou continued.

Lawmakers got to their feet in the National Assembly chamber to applaud.

France’s prime minister Francois Bayrou speaks during a session focused on Ukraine and security in Europe at the National Assembly, French parliament lower house, in Paris on 3 March 2025.Photograph: Stéphane de Sakutin/AFP/Getty Images

German citizen, 40, identified as Mannheim suspect after two killed as car driven into crowd – as it happened

Police say no evidence that more suspects were involved in incident which left several people badly injured

www.theguardian.com

 

[JennieM]

Trump and his allies dig in on opposition to Zelensky​

Bernd Debusmann Jr
Reporting from the White House

In a recent post to his social media platfotm Truth Social, US President Donald Trump has - again - accused Ukrainian President Volodomyr Zelensky of standing in the way of potential peace negotiations.

"America will not put up with it for much longer," Trump wrote. "This guy [Zelensky] doesn't want there to be peace as long as he has America's backing."

Following the Oval Office meeting between Zelensky and Trump's team on Friday, several of the US president's political allies have suggested that they no longer see Zelensky as a viable US partner moving forward.

Just hours after the Oval Office meeting, for example, South Carolina Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said he did not know "if we can ever do business with Zelensky again".

"He either needs to resign and send somebody over that we can do business with," Graham added. "Or he needs to change."

Administration officials have, so far, provided little detail into what - if anything - Zelensky can do to redeem himself in the eyes of the White House.

Later today, Trump will reportedly meet with senior administration officials such as national security advisor Mike Waltz to discuss potential next steps on Ukraine.

The White House has so far not responded to various requests for comment from the BBC.

Earlier in the day, Waltz told Fox News that he believes the "American people's patience is not unlimited. Their wallets are not unlimited, and our stockpiles and munitions are not unlimited.

"So the time to talk is now."

Zelensky ready to work under Trump's 'strong leadership' after 'regrettable' showdown

The Ukrainian president says last week's fiery Oval Office meeting "did not go the way it was supposed to", adding Kyiv is ready to sign a minerals deal.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[JennieM]

Starmer: Putin feasts on division​

IMAGE SOURCE, BBC PARLIAMENT
More now from the Q&A with PM Starmer in the Commons.

Labour's Perran Moon asks Starmer whether he agrees that “Putin will feast on Western division” and that in this "delicate moment" every corner of the House continues to show a united front.

“Putin does feast on division,” Starmer says.

He adds that when he was leader of the opposition, one of the reasons he supported the then-government was because Putin would have been the “only winner” if there had been division.

He also commends the current opposition leader, Kemi Badenoch, for continuing this support.

Zelensky ready to work under Trump's 'strong leadership' after 'regrettable' showdown

The Ukrainian president says last week's fiery Oval Office meeting "did not go the way it was supposed to", adding Kyiv is ready to sign a minerals deal.

www.bbc.co.uk